[Prog Rock Man]

So much speculation reminds me of the idea that you can only realistically look at the unlikely once you have ruled out the likely explanations.

 

 

[Mkubota1]

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From all of the reading I have done here at head-fi, what I have learned is, the skeptics want to be proved wrong, and the believers egos are too big, and are afraid to be proved wrong.

And that's what I find ironic about this whole thing.  Personally, I am a certified gadget freak who's looking for any excuse to buy a new 'box' that will make the slightest difference- good or bad (to me it's more often 'different' than just those two choices).  If anything I have a bias towards hearing a difference.  I can list a number of reasons, from financial to psychological, why a person would want to believe they can hear things that cannot be heard.  But what possible motive (we've ruled out being a cheapskate) would I have not to believe in super-cool looking cables or a three rackspace tall line conditioner?
 
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That's been done before.
 
Tom Nousaine had installed ABX switchers into a number of people's home systems where they could do the tests at their leisure, taking as long as they like to listen or switch, etc. Some of these people had the ABX switcher in their system for months and even years.
 
None of them ever turned up a positive result.

I suppose it would be naive of me to think it hasn't been done... I guess I was just thinking out loud, wondering what objections or flaws they could possibly cite in such a test.  I can't think of any other field, industry, or hobby where "take my word for it- the difference is like day-and-night" is so averse to any kind of comparison test to support that claim.  I have worked in the wine industry for over 7 years and never once heard a complaint about brown bag or DB testing.  The benchmark of the Institute of Masters of Wine is in fact DBT.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Cracking piont about wine tasting. When you think about it, DBT should be standard stuff for audiophiles.

 

 

[maverickronin]

Personally, I think it would be awesome if fancy boutique cables were anything other than audio jewelry.  If soldering on a fancy cable was all it took to make my T50RPs sound even better I'd be all over it, even if it was stupidly expensive.  My house and office are too noisy to justify spending a ton of money on headphones with out any isolation and short of super high end stuff (R10, 4070, etc) or custom IEMs (which I wouldn't mind except they have no resale value and they can be "outgrown") there probably isn't anything better that's not completely open..  Unfortunately those cables don't do anything extra besides look pretty.
 
I do have a hefty line conditioner though.  Its mostly because I became paranoid about spikes or surges damaging my PC.  I don't think it does anything but protect my audio rig, but it can't hurt.  I got it cheap off ebay too.

 

[upstateguy]

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And that's what I find ironic about this whole thing.  Personally, I am a certified gadget freak who's looking for any excuse to buy a new 'box' that will make the slightest difference- good or bad (to me it's more often 'different' than just those two choices).  If anything I have a bias towards hearing a difference.  I can list a number of reasons, from financial to psychological, why a person would want to believe they can hear things that cannot be heard.  But what possible motive (we've ruled out being a cheapskate) would I have not to believe in super-cool looking cables or a three rackspace tall line conditioner?
 

 
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Personally, I think it would be awesome if fancy boutique cables were anything other than audio jewelry.  If soldering on a fancy cable was all it took to make my T50RPs sound even better I'd be all over it, even if it was stupidly expensive.  My house and office are too noisy to justify spending a ton of money on headphones with out any isolation and short of super high end stuff (R10, 4070, etc) or custom IEMs (which I wouldn't mind except they have no resale value and they can be "outgrown") there probably isn't anything better that's not completely open..  Unfortunately those cables don't do anything extra besides look pretty.
 
I do have a hefty line conditioner though.  Its mostly because I became paranoid about spikes or surges damaging my PC.  I don't think it does anything but protect my audio rig, but it can't hurt.  I got it cheap off ebay too.

I just want to address the audio jewelry aspect. 
 
I don't see anything wrong with upgrading to a better looking cable or a nicer looking piece of equipment.  How it looks counts.  We buy style all the time. 
 
I wonder how many people actually go for really geeky looking things like my Blue Circle Thingee?
 

 

 

 
 
 

 

[Mkubota1]

 
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Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I don't see anything wrong with upgrading to a better looking cable or a nicer looking piece of equipment.  How it looks counts.  We buy style all the time.

 
Absolutely!!!  I am not at all opposed to that.  Although I've abandoned vinyl long ago for many reasons, there is nothing more relaxing than watching a tonearm float across the reflective surface of a record despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the actual sound.  I get the handcrafted, non-mass produced, engineered to the Nth degree aspect of a lot of thing.  Just don't tell me that your Patek Philippe Complicated Perpetual tells time any differently than my Casio G-Shock, and I will appreciate both.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I just want to address the audio jewelry aspect. 
 
I don't see anything wrong with upgrading to a better looking cable or a nicer looking piece of equipment.  How it looks counts.  We buy style all the time. 
 

That's fine if you know what you're getting into, but they sure aren't sold that way and that's really what I have a problem with.  Most boutique cable sellers don't flat-out lie but they sell them with the same "wink, wink - nudge, nudge" that others sell everything from nutritional "supplements" to quack medicine with.  They whip of a storm of placebo induced testimonials so they don't actually have to lie themselves.  Its about as dishonest as you can get without actually committing an actionable offense.
 
I'm way over on the function (vs form) side of things myself.  I'll usually only pick something that looks better if it only costs me a little bit extra money and almost never if it costs me extra features.  I don't really mind if people are on the other end of the scale.  I just don't like seeing people get ripped off or seeing dishonest people prosper.  If you knew ahead of time that it was just for looks and not for sound then you probably weren't ripped off but if you bought it hoping for better sound then you probably were.

 

[Uncle Erik]

USG, in a sense you're completely right. But that's not the whole story.

Audio jewelry is usually pitched to equate to better sound. People assume that the 1" thick CNC milled aluminum faceplate means everything inside is well built and of the highest quality. The high price tags reinforce this. But what you often get is a bog-standard circuit on a PCB and a few boutique caps to dress it up.

But otherwise, aesthetics are important. I'll pay more for a gorgeous case. Sadly, there isn't too much of that around, either. Everyone seems to aim for a high-tech look with heavy aluminum panels. Those are OK, but I haven't seen much creativity in casework.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Absolutely!!!  I am not at all opposed to that.  Although I've abandoned vinyl long ago for many reasons, there is nothing more relaxing than watching a tonearm float across the reflective surface of a record despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the actual sound.  I get the handcrafted, non-mass produced, engineered to the Nth degree aspect of a lot of thing.  Just don't tell me that your Patek Philippe Complicated Perpetual tells time any differently than my Casio G-Shock, and I will appreciate both.
 

Your G-Shock is going to be more accurate than any mechanical watch can, but if you want a dressier watch you have to look elsewhere.

 
click to enlarge

 


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That's fine if you know what you're getting into, but they sure aren't sold that way and that's really what I have a problem with.  Most boutique cable sellers don't flat-out lie but they sell them with the same "wink, wink - nudge, nudge" that others sell everything from nutritional "supplements" to quack medicine with.  They whip of a storm of placebo induced testimonials so they don't actually have to lie themselves.  Its about as dishonest as you can get without actually committing an actionable offense.
 
I'm way over on the function (vs form) side of things myself.  I'll usually only pick something that looks better if it only costs me a little bit extra money and almost never if it costs me extra features.  I don't really mind if people are on the other end of the scale.  I just don't like seeing people get ripped off or seeing dishonest people prosper.  If you knew ahead of time that it was just for looks and not for sound then you probably weren't ripped off but if you bought it hoping for better sound then you probably were.

We are in 100% agreement. 

 


Quote:

USG, in a sense you're completely right. But that's not the whole story.

Audio jewelry is usually pitched to equate to better sound. People assume that the 1" thick CNC milled aluminum faceplate means everything inside is well built and of the highest quality. The high price tags reinforce this. But what you often get is a bog-standard circuit on a PCB and a few boutique caps to dress it up.

But otherwise, aesthetics are important. I'll pay more for a gorgeous case. Sadly, there isn't too much of that around, either. Everyone seems to aim for a high-tech look with heavy aluminum panels. Those are OK, but I haven't seen much creativity in casework.

Hi Erik
 
Sadly, you are absolutely correct. 
 
Too bad the only place this can be discussed is here.
 
Eric
 

 

[Mkubota1]

Quote:

 
Too bad the only place this can be discussed is here.

Now I know how all of those smokers in the smoking rooms at airports feel. 

 

 

[keanex]

Audiophiles are the biggest suckers known to man and companies take advantage of it whole heartedly:
 
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/51325
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/82182
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72730
 
and my favorite is this one: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73520

 

[tmars78]

Audiophiles are the biggest suckers known to man and companies take advantage of it whole heartedly:
 
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/51325
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/82182
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72730
 
and my favorite is this one: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73520

Did you see the price of the CD mat?? $200. Wow, no wonder people sometimes refer to audiophiles as audiophools. That is downright ridiculous. I am glad I am not in search of "perfect sound". I'd rather just be a music lover.

 

[Heidegger]

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Your point about what the maker of amp said, is rather pointless. Of course he is going to say that. He is in the business of making money too, and people looking to turn a profit, will say ANYTHING to make a buck. Sad? Yes, unfortunately.

First I'm told that people who know anything about amps don't believe in break-in. When I ask the people who actually know about my amp -- i.e., the manufacturer -- then I'm told they're lying. It's nice to have your cake and eat it too isn't it. Maybe it's not the manufacturer who's full of it but people on this thread.
 
 

 

[maverickronin]

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First I'm told that people who know anything about amps don't believe in break-in. When I ask the people who actually know about my amp -- i.e., the manufacturer -- then I'm told they're lying. It's nice to have your cake and eat it too isn't it. Maybe it's not the manufacturer who's full of it but people on this thread.

 
Just like the manufacturers of all the crap keanex just posted above really know how green markers make your CDs sound better, right?  Its such a shame they're hiding it from the Nobel Prize committee.  Just think what else those magic (literally!) markers must be good for!  While we're at it, why doesn't Furutech license its secrets about magnetic polymers?  That's got to be good for more money than low volume runs of degaussing platters.
 
The safe bet is that they're making it all up to sell to gullible consumers.

 

[Mkubota1]

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Just like the manufacturers of all the crap keanex just posted above really know how green markers make your CDs sound better, right?

If painting the edge of the disc green makes such a big difference, how come the CD manufacturers don't simply make them that way?  And never mind whether or not they work- $25 for a green permanent marker???  Sounds like a 2500% mark-up to me- which means that $800 AC cord they're selling you is...