[upstateguy]

The difference in sound between the Cardas and stock cables is such that if I performed the test and it told me there was no audible difference then I would assume there was something wrong with the test. If it told me that there is an audible difference, then it would simply be confirming what I already know.

 


I have a good friend on HeadFi who says the same thing.

Finding out you've been incorrect is a very bitter pill to swallow.

USG 

 

[nick_charles]

 
Quote:

 
I have a good friend on HeadFi who says the same thing.Finding out you've been incorrect is a very bitter pill to swallow.USG  

They are not alone, most hifi rag reviewers despise any kind of controlled test. The most interestng case is John Atkinson, who used to be English, as a young engineering grad he DB tested two amps, a cheap SS and a more expensive Tube amp, he could not tell them apart so bought the SS amp and hated it. So he then bought the tube amp and lived happily.
 
Atkinson uses that as an example of why DBTs do not work. But Atkinson says he always wanted a glowing tube amp and no amount of rational thought will make such an obsession go away easily, he buys the tube amp and his irrational fixation is satisfied. It is Psychology not engineering.
 
Hey, I still want a turntable even though I know full well how disappointed I will be with it, I gave up vinyl in 1984 for all the rational reasons, but still cannot wholly shake the desire to get a TT again...thankfully the sellers of such things used are asking absurd prices for them.
 

 

[upstateguy]

 
Quote:

They are not alone, most hifi rag reviewers despise any kind of controlled test. The most interestng case is John Atkinson, who used to be English, as a young engineering grad he DB tested two amps, a cheap SS and a more expensive Tube amp, he could not tell them apart so bought the SS amp and hated it. So he then bought the tube amp and lived happily.
 
Atkinson uses that as an example of why DBTs do not work. But Atkinson says he always wanted a glowing tube amp and no amount of rational thought will make such an obsession go away easily, he buys the tube amp and his irrational fixation is satisfied. It is Psychology not engineering.
 
Hey, I still want a turntable even though I know full well how disappointed I will be with it, I gave up vinyl in 1984 for all the rational reasons, but still cannot wholly shake the desire to get a TT again...thankfully the sellers of such things used are asking absurd prices for them.
 

I know what you mean.....
 
I still have my original TT, the cleaning kit, Zerostat antistatic gun and the DBX118 I used to reduce the vinyl surface noise. (shown below compressing some early digital material that had too wide a dynamic range for comfortable low level listening)
 

 

 

[maverickronin]

@SE
 
Who knows?  There's not enough information for me to say either way.  I'm inclined to go with Hanlon's Razor.  Everyone makes mistakes and no one us can show anything remotely close to intent with out a lot more information.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

 
Hey, I still want a turntable even though I know full well how disappointed I will be with it, I gave up vinyl in 1984 for all the rational reasons, but still cannot wholly shake the desire to get a TT again...thankfully the sellers of such things used are asking absurd prices for them.
 

In all fairness vinyl does fill a gap if done right.  Not having to deal with loudness wars processed crap really does help.  You can also get a good direct drive table for $150 used which isn't too bad, or something like a vintage NAD for $50 or so (what I did).  I strapped a cheap $30 AT cart and phono preamp on it without an issue.  I haven't noticed a lot of pops, crackles, or surface noise honestly.  This coming from someone that was mostly raised on digital audio.  Of course if you can get your music on DVD-A or SACD there probably isn't a reason to go back that way.

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

No and you are the person to do that for this thread. That will show whether Cardas and Sennheiser have the properties that you claim, an audible difference based on hearing ability alone or whether I am right to take existing evidence about cables and apply it to Cardas and Sennheiser cables.

 How would you A/B a headphone cable? I would have to be blindfolded or something. Come to think of it, how were headphone cables tested by this thread -- or was it only other cables that were tested?

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

So let me make sure I understand you. If you were to do a blind comparison with your own ears: and listening to the same cans through both cables sounded identical (you could not tell them apart), then you would believe there was something wrong with the test (the test being "you listening to your music from your amp over your cables with your cans") because, when and only when you know in advance which cable you are listening to, you can tell which cable you are listening to?
 
That's a pretty straight-forward example of denial.

I was thinking of other types of measurements.

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

Heidegger, is it the case that the Cardas cable, at a set volume on your amp sounds louder than the Sennheiser one?

It sounds clearer. I should go back and check if it gets louder. But not that I remember.

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

1.  So quantum dynamics /= Newtonian motion means what exactly?  You essentially said that newton's laws were dogmatically asserted as sacred doctrine but turned out not to be perfect, therefore science = FAIL.  I showed that they weren't.  What does quantum theory have to do with it?
 
2.  Your claiming that other people claim something which they don't because it easier to shoot down then the actual position.  That's called a strawman.
 
3.  If you can prove it then James Randi might give you cool million.
 
4.  Emotions map to physical brain states which can be measured.  Not perfectly, but people are working on it.  That's the point.  It is possible.  Its based on something that manifests in our reality and which can be measured in principle even if our technology isn't up to snuff yet.  And don't forget that after suitable blinding and replication that even our fallible human senses can be used to make such measurements.  If you are sensing something then your senses have measured it in some manner, otherwise you couldn't have sensed it!  Blinding will help to ensure that what you are sensing originates outside your mind and replication will improve the accuracy of measurement.

1. Science=FAIL? Where when did I say that? That is not my position at all. My position is that experiments aren't foolproof, and that our senses can sometimes be trusted.
2. For a great example of a strawman, see your comment 1 above.
3. I've only vaguely heard of that guy and his offer. Does he include headphone cables as well? And how would you go about proving it to him?
4. There is no 1:1 correlation between brain states and intangibles such as love. My brain state can show total anger if somebody steals a thousand dollars from me, but that does not in the least affect the love I have for my parents, which remains constant no matter what temporary fluxes affect my brain. The love for my parents is abiding, while brain states are mutable and passing, in constant flux.

 

 

[Heidegger]

Quote:

 
Hilarious.  That attitude would get you fired from professional research.

Maybe -- or maybe the fact that what I heard was so obvious it would lead me to question my experiment, see where it went wrong, what I wasn't taking into account, and make corrections, or else just be aware of its limitations.

 

[JerryLove]

Quote:

 How would you A/B a headphone cable? I would have to be blindfolded or something. Come to think of it, how were headphone cables tested by this thread -- or was it only other cables that were tested?

An interesting question. It's possible that you could get two identical headphones with different cables. Run ABX. If they cannot be identified by sound, then switch the cables (So that the headphone with cable A now had B and vice versa) and then repeat. This would eliminate the headphones themselves as a variable...
 
Though there would be subtle clues (like the warmth or coolness of the cup)  that might need to be dealt with.
 
Perhaps, if you are sure which one you think is the better of the two, it could be run to an A/B switch that then runs through either a second "better" cable or the other cable.
 
I'm sure something could be come up with.
 
Quote:

I was thinking of other types of measurements.

Oh? I thought you were discussing ABX tests.
 
 
 

 

[Heidegger]

As regards the amp, I found these comments on other posts that perfectly conform to what I experience:
 
SP Wild writes: "Just make sure the dip switches at the bottom are all set to the maximum gain.  This setting is the most transparent - I leave it on max gain even to drive my 27 ohm cans or 300 ohm cans and anywhere in between - regardless of what the manual says.
 
With the dip switches at the max setting the BCL is transparent enough for me to use as a pre-amp stage going into my tube-amps - The BCL is able to tighten up the midbass - the bass in my tube amps are less taught without the BCL active stage."
 
KiwiNZ writes: "Mine's also set on max 20db for the best sound."
 
Both are at:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/438859/lehmann-black-cube-user-manual-english-version#post_5914894
 
Then Kees writes: "I don't own one, but I had one on trial for some time.
Not to say anything bad about the SQ of the BCL, but I didn't like it and didn't keep it.
For me it had three disqualifying properties:
- Rather disappointing dynamics. It sounds very polite and far away. It does not give me the feeling I am realy there. I contributed it to rather poor dynamics (I may be wrong, but that is what I thought to be the cause).
- It does wonderful with Senn (HD650) but less so with other brands. Specifically my ATHs (W100) and Victor DX1000 did not do well with it. They sounded rather flat and uninvolving.
- It did not have the ability to drive my (headphile) K340 to even a remotely acceptable level."
 
Kees:
 
"What annoyed me most was that I found that I inadvertedly kept turning the volume up, but that didn't help any. I even checked the back to see if there was maybe a gain switch..... And I don't usually play my music loud."
 
And Kees again:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas Turning the volume up to help...what? The Lehmann BCL's gain switches are on the bottom.

"If I do something inadvertedly, I don't know why I do it the moment I do it. My wild guess now would be: To compensate for the perceived lack of *dynamics?*. I know it doesn't help, that is why it annoyed me that I found myself doing it.

I must say I never found the gain switches on the bottom. I don't think it would have made a lot of difference, considering I had the same experience with widely varying impedances (30, 65, 300 ohm), don't you think? Maybe for the K340, a bit.

This is how I experienced it. It may very well be different for other people."
 
The above is copied from:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/190769/lehmann-black-cube-linear/15
 
 ~ So when I read Kees's comment that the BCL sounds "polite and far away" and that turning up the volume didn't help any, I knew exactly what he was talking about and immediately thought he probably had the gain switch at 10dB. I kept reading and bam he didn't even know the amp had gain switches, so never corrected for it.  By contrast, SP Wild knew about the gain switches and found that maximum gain gives the most *transparency,* which is exactly what I find (although I prefer the sound at 18dB rather than 20dB). I found no comments anywhere on this forum of people who actually own and have heard the BCL who have said that changing the gain setting doesn't improve the sound. Kees -- the guy who didn't know about the gain switches -- conjuctures that switching the gain wouldn't have made any difference, but of course he never heard the amp at higher gain. What he did hear at lower gain matches what I heard, and his disappointment with the amp mirrors my initial disappointment witih it before I switched to 18dB.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

1. Science=FAIL? Where when did I say that? That is not my position at all. My position is that experiments aren't foolproof, and that our senses can sometimes be trusted.
2. For a great example of a strawman, see your comment 1 above.
3. I've only vaguely heard of that guy and his offer. Does he include headphone cables as well? And how would you go about proving it to him?
4. There is no 1:1 correlation between brain states and intangibles such as love. My brain state can show total anger if somebody steals a thousand dollars from me, but that does not in the least affect the love I have for my parents, which remains constant no matter what temporary fluxes affect my brain. The love for my parents is abiding, while brain states are mutable and passing, in constant flux.

1.  To further elaborate, you were saying that because science = fail, you can go on believing whatever crap you want to until its proven absolutely 100% false and maybe even after that because after all, science = fail.
 
2.  Not quite.  As I said before you were implying because our knowledge is not 100% perfect that there is still a possibility that you could be right and therefore you can continue to believe whatever you want.  We're not talking about possibilities, we are talking about probabilities.  Anything is logically possible if you contrive an arbitrarily complicated series of excuses.  Discovering that magic boutique cables actually worked would be quite close to discovering that gravity and relativity are in fact wrong and that instead, angels hold our feet to the ground.
 
3.  Since most of your claims would break or overturn known laws of physics I think they qualify as paranormal.  Even if they don't, the Nobel Prize committee would sure love to hear about your discoveries.
 
4.  "Love" is not intangible.  All your emotions, memories, likes, dislikes, and everything that make you who you are resides in your brain and are represented in its physical make up.  Where else would they reside?  Are you going to tell me you're a dualist and that your feelings exist in your soul?  Don't get me started on how stupid that is...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Heidigger, I'd settle for test results where there isn't a strict A/B comparison. What I'd like to do is have you compare several unknown cables as you see fit, short of cutting them open. You could also mix some known cables of your own choosing into the mix. Instead of trying to tell the difference, you'd write a review of each cable. Used on your own equipment and with your own selection of music.

Some of the unknown cables will be identical. Some will be things like coathangers or paper clips soldered together. Others might have a resistor soldered into one channel. And much else.

What would be interesting would be to compare your reviews of the various cables. What if you gave high marks to a cable brined in seawater for a month that has a resistor on the left channel, while trashing the pure silver cable? What if you find a cable that has a coathanger on the left channel and copper on the right to sound better than your Cardas? And much else along those lines. You would not be able to complain about the "stress" or having to make snap decisions. You'd have hours to evaluate and review each. And I think the results would be extremely telling. If there were two identical copper cables abd you gave them wildly different reviews, what would that say about your ability to evaluate cables? What if you brought in some magical $2,000 cable and gave a better review to paperclips?

I'd like to conduct these tests sooner or later. My guess is that there will be a lot of red faces among the golden ears. No one has ever passed a listening test, and I seriously doubt anyone could, even with intentionally degraded cables.

Nick, my excuse for keeping a turntable around is access to cheap recordings that aren't on digital. I don't buy the sonic superiority arguments, however, vinyl can sound pleasing when done right. It might not be the best, but there's no reason you can't enjoy it. Being able to play 25¢ thrift store records just makes it better.

 

[JadeEast]

I like Uncle Erics idea. People seem to always try to prove cable diference with examples of better performing cables. Why not go the other way? Find a cable that makes a negative impact the sound quality.