Dec 26, 2024 at 4:23 AM Post #18,556 of 19,075
So, what’s he getting at? ... I think he’s trying to remind us that audio perception is incredibly rich and layered, and there’s a lot going on that standard measurements can’t fully explain. And that’s why subjective impressions still matter, even if they don’t always align perfectly with what we measure in a lab. Whether or not cables or timing differences really make an audible difference for everyone is obviously a whole 'nother debate, but his broader point seems to be: our ears are pretty incredible, and there’s more to sound than numbers on a graph.
At the end of the day he is talking about a recording which is playback via an electrical signal rather than a live acoustic event. I don't get it, if that electrical signal on the playback chain measures identical to the electrical signal on the recorded path then what else is there apart from his imagination?
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 4:42 AM Post #18,557 of 19,075
At the end of the day he is talking about a recording which is playback via an electrical signal rather than a live acoustic event. I don't get it, if that electrical signal on the playback chain measures identical to the electrical signal on the recorded path then what else is there apart from his imagination?
Basically, he's showing that measurements capture a lot, but they don’t tell the whole story. That’s why subjective listening, while obviously imperfect, remains an important complement to measurements when evaluating audio equipment. It’s not about ignoring measurement, it’s about recognizing that the science of measurement is still evolving to catch up with the full complexity of human hearing.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 4:44 AM Post #18,558 of 19,075
At the end of the day he is talking about a recording which is playback via an electrical signal rather than a live acoustic event. I don't get it, if that electrical signal on the playback chain measures identical to the electrical signal on the recorded path then what else is there apart from his imagination?
Mismatch negativity research shows that our brains can detect subtle changes in sound even when we’re not consciously aware of them. For example, the brain can detect changes in timing or rhythm that don't show up in measurements. If you're feeling nerdy, check out "Weighting of neural prediction error by rhythmic complexity: A predictive coding account using Mismatch Negativity" by Lumaca et al. (2019).

Part of what makes this so interesting is that the brain is not responsive, it's predictive. It does not take in sensory data and process it, it predicts what should be coming in and error corrects when the data don't match predictions. So, the brain is constantly filling in gaps and making sense of incomplete or imperfect data. Even if an audio system reproduces a signal with minor deviations from the original, the brain might "correct" for those deviations or, conversely, overemphasize them depending on how they align with predictions.

This stuff is FAR deeper than what meters can see.
 
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Dec 26, 2024 at 5:20 AM Post #18,559 of 19,075
What do we make of this. I'm watching it before bed, so I'll think it over tomorrow. But from my extremely layman's POV, I'm thinking... what is he getting at? Is this a very roundabout way of pooh-poohing measurements... objectivity? And the bit about cables... I still don't really feel like I perceive microseconds. But then what about the 'Perceiving Timbre' section. About different musical instruments being indistinguishable if you trim the first few microseconds from their recorded sound.

Wait... wouldn't that mean that if I was listening with a cheap cable, or audio gear, I wouldn't know what I was listening to? I've never had that experience either.


So, what he's doing in the first half is rather simple. Take all you can learn on a subject, remove anything conditional when it strictly is, remove any "yes, but", and only keep bringing up the best case scenarios achieved once for each variable studied in ultra isolation under the most ideal conditions. Sometimes talk about hearing, sometimes talk about events in the ear and make it look like they're the same thing. Show how the entire brain is involved when listening to music, but don't explain why that it is(influence from non audio senses, and memories, emotions, focus, expectations helping identify some things and altering others, you know, precision...). Instead, insist on the complexity to say that we're amazeballz.

This gentleman is marketing hearing in the first half of the video, not teaching you about it! It's an ad for ears. And if it went on TV, at the end, a lot of little warnings would come by very fast not so you can get them but so he wouldn't get sued.


We have incredible sensitivity in the ear, yes. Because all you need for the lowest intensity stimulus to be created at the ear, is to trigger 1 neuron in that ear(not one in the brain, one near the air cells), but it's a noisy system in itself(we generate our own vibrations and noises), and of course there is always slightly more than one atom worth of noise in a room. And the likelihood for 1 neuron at the ear to trigger other neurons that will trigger others etc. and give a sound impression, well, good luck with that. Imagine if it really was like he explains, non-stop experience of all the smallest noises internal and external, all the sounds, all the reverb in the room, ... I bet you couldn't even think straight. Focus alone rejects most of what is argued in the video. Focus can let you improve perception of one instrument in a band, at the cost of not getting as much of the rest. Focus can just as well take your attention and brain resources away from sound, to the point where you won't even be able to tell what song was just playing. Anyway, I could spend the entire day on this, delusional and fake is what his model of hearing really shows.

The cited paper from that guy who's been... it's Xmas time, so I'll just say... controversial. He takes all the paper at face value and more for his ear marketing effort. It's not serious. He talks about the impact of transients while discussing the experiment taking a single note from an instrument and removing part of the start, and part of the end until it's hard to identify the instrument. The purpose is to show that we care about more than the general spectrum, and that's correct. The envelope seems to be a bigger deal subjectively. But does that experiment tell us to make stuff up about transients? No, it was not the point of it.

Localization is incredibly complicated(a lot more than people usually know), relies on different "tools" at different frequencies, different signal information(binaural or not, timing, FR...) and ultimately, we're still not very good at it. Limited angular precision that gets worse to the sides. We overestimate small distances up to about 1meter, then underestimate them beyond that distance while being highly inaccurate. We simply won't locate certain frequencies at all. Just because we get a feeling of a given and precise position from sound, does not mean it's accurate(it's not). Just another case of mistaking an impression with reality.





The first half was advertising of the ear and brain, exaggerating, fantasizing, and ignoring things, the marketing way. The second part of the video is pure propaganda and the BS output has turned to 11. There are very few things that are true, but they're buried in so many false statements and empty conjectures presented as facts, that the right thing to do is to burn that second half of the video and quarantine the area.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 6:12 AM Post #18,560 of 19,075
That's more like it :)
Destroyed with facts and logic.

Couldn't be bothered thinking critically for myself just now.

Some sort of chocolate hangover from yesterday. Felt nauseous, had to go to the sauna this morning to start purging.
And now I've started again on some kitkat, twix, tea cakes and herzen lebkuchen. Ugghh. But yum.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 6:22 AM Post #18,561 of 19,075
What do we make of this.
It’s nonsense! He just completely makes up BS figures. For example, the highest frequency humans can hear is 20kHz, which has a wavelength of 1.7cm, just under 2 hundredths of a meter, where on earth does he get a sensitivity of 1 pico-meter, a trillionth of a meter, from? He cites a paper by Kuncher (which is famously wrong!) as supporting evidence, but then states the figures he’s quoting aren’t actually in the papers he’s citing. Another example, he claims timing sensitivity down to 1 micro-sec and this is a large part of Kuncher’s papers except for the fact that Kuncher claims a 5 micro-sec threshold, other studies evidence more like 10 micro-secs but this is all indirectly with test signals. Human timing resolution directly, with music, is in the range of milli, not micro-secs and he even admits that (thereby contradicting himself) later in the video.

He can’t even get the simple basics right, decibels is absolutely not an “abstract concept” and the difference between 30dB and 100dB is a factor of 3,162 NOT ten million! He seems to just arbitrarily make up figures and stick a bunch of zeroes on the end to make it all appear like human hearing is almost infinitely sensitive and impossible to measure, and then he tells us “we must remember” these figures which he just made up and are complete BS.

Human hearing/perception is quite amazing in what it can do, the way it can differentiate frequencies (and not differentiate them), as well as how it processes and interprets reflections and timing info but with his examples of system A and B he’s just flat out lying again, timbral and timing differences/inaccuracies absolutely will show up in measurements of frequency response, distortion, etc.

It’s just the same old audiophile marketing BS they’ve been peddling for decades: Measurements are useless + human hearing is near infinite, therefore everything makes a difference and so you should buy our audiophile DAC, cables, fuses, capacitors or whatever and it’s definitely worth an extra zero or three added to the price, even though they measure the same! lol

G
 
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Dec 26, 2024 at 7:08 AM Post #18,562 of 19,075
I suppose that the waveform does capture the entire sound, starting with the transients that he says define timbre. But microseconds... I don't know.

If a cheap cable or audio gear smears the sound due to minute errors in the transient timing, then that's something I haven't heard. Instruments always sound like what they are.
Transients do not define timbre. Timbre is mainly defined by the overtones of the sustained part of the sound. Some instruments have similar overtones which is why it can be harder to tell them apart when the transient is removed.

Removing a micro second of the transient will either sound like nothing or a click being played on top of the otherwise unchanged transient, depending on which part is being removed. Most transients fit in the 1-10ms (sometimes even longer) window, they are at least a 1000 time longer than a microsecond.

Audio cables do not smear audio signals.

When you listen to something like rock, of course you won't be struggling with telling different instruments apart. But as an example, good luck with consistently distinguishing a trumpet from a cornet (is that the english word for it?). They can sound very similar depending on how they are played. When played like that, they will be hard to tell apart, regardless of any microsecond pixie dust.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 7:45 AM Post #18,563 of 19,075
When you listen to something like rock, of course you won't be struggling with telling different instruments apart. But as an example, good luck with consistently distinguishing a trumpet from a cornet (is that the english word for it?). They can sound very similar depending on how they are played. When played like that, they will be hard to tell apart, regardless of any microsecond pixie dust.
There are many instruments of related construction that may be hard to tell apart, depending on how they are played and recorded. Not just the trumpet and cornet, but also e.g. the cello and viola da gamba.

Even unrelated instruments can cause confusion, e.g. a hurdy-gurdy can at times be mistaken for bagpipes depending on how it is being played/recorded, especially with both using drones.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 9:38 AM Post #18,564 of 19,075
It’s nonsense! He just completely makes up BS figures. For example, the highest frequency humans can hear is 20kHz, which has a wavelength of 1.7cm, just under 2 hundredths of a meter, where on earth does he get a sensitivity of 1 pico-meter, a trillionth of a meter, from?

G
Gregorio is wrong from the very first point. He doesn't understand the distinction between frequency resolution (our ability to hear different pitches) and amplitude sensitivity (our ability to detect tiny physical displacements of sound waves). At 20 kHz, the wavelength of a sound wave is indeed around 1.7 cm. This refers to the physical distance between the peaks of a wave in air and is related to the pitch of the sound. The picometer figure refers to the minimum displacement of the basilar membrane in the cochlea that the ear can detect. This is not about the wavelength of the sound wave in air but rather the tiny mechanical movements within the ear triggered by sound pressure. Studies like Ruggero and Tonndorf (2009) have measured the basilar membrane’s motion and found it can detect movements at the fractional angstrom (picometer) scale.

(Gregorio also screws up power and sound pressure. Yes, 70 dB is a factor of 3162 in sound pressure, but the video is not referring to that, it's referring to sound power because the ear's sensitivity is ultimately related to power because loudness perception correlates more closely with power than with raw pressure. And 10 million is completely correct there.)

(And, Kuncher's work is not --outside the ASR/Sound Science "every DAC/amp/cable/whatever sounds the same" fantasyland -- "famously wrong". In the real world, Kunchur's papers have undergone peer review and been published in various scientific journals, including the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.)
 
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Dec 26, 2024 at 11:03 AM Post #18,565 of 19,075
Yes, 70 dB is a factor of 3162 in sound power,
+10 dB is 10x power and 3.162x sound pressure
+20 dB is 100x power and 10x sound pressure
+30 dB is 1000x power and 31.62x sound pressure
+40 dB is 10000x power and 100x sound pressure
+50 dB is 100000x power and 316.2x sound pressure
+60 dB is 1000000x power and 1000x sound pressure
+70 dB is 10000000x power and 3162x sound pressure

In general 10^(L/10) x power and 10^(L/20) x pressure, where L is the relative decibel level.

Unless I'm experiencing serious dementia, that is... :dt880smile:
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 11:05 AM Post #18,566 of 19,075
I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t bother clicking through YouTube videos any more. The ones that get shared here almost always seem to not be worth my time. I imagine there are useful YouTube videos, but it’s a better use of my time to read supporting arguments than to wade through as much as an hour of blather. I’ll let you guys do that.
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 11:20 AM Post #18,567 of 19,075
+10 dB is 10x power and 3.162x sound pressure
+20 dB is 100x power and 10x sound pressure
+30 dB is 1000x power and 31.62x sound pressure
+40 dB is 10000x power and 100x sound pressure
+50 dB is 100000x power and 316.2x sound pressure
+60 dB is 1000000x power and 1000x sound pressure
+70 dB is 10000000x power and 3162x sound pressure

In general 10^(L/10) x power and 10^(L/20) x pressure, where L is the relative decibel level.

Unless I'm experiencing serious dementia, that is... :dt880smile:
Yup - good edit.
 
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Dec 26, 2024 at 11:25 AM Post #18,568 of 19,075
I wade through the blather. There's something hypnotic about it. I watch crap like Mud Fossil University for the same reason. Perversity. Some flaw in my psyche.

I share the ones that I think may have some sort of value for... something... here. I can't explain anything about audio science myself. But I have a keen instinct for bullcrap. What it looks like, what it sounds like. How it functions. How it doesn't work when you step back and take everything into account.
 
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Dec 26, 2024 at 3:34 PM Post #18,569 of 19,075
No, I've not read all 1238 pages of this thread. I think each of us has to determine 'value' on our own. Is it wrong for a hardware maker to get the highest price for a product they make or for an individual to decide to spend their money how ever they wish regardless of others perceived value (all rhetorical).

Currently, I have two nearly identical headphone amp, dac, streamers (all in one units) both by the same manufacturer for extensive evaluation. I can stream the same content to both simultaneously. Yes, I can see which device I'm moving the XLR jack to/from but I can clearly and consistently hear several characteristic differences between them. It's not down to just gain matching as I've listened to both extensively over the past couple weeks for hours at a time each and the differences my brain hears is consistent with varying gain used on each. They are $300 and $459, respectively and the only advertised differences are the DAC chip used in each. However, one uses twice the power leading me to suspect it has more class A bias than the other, both are class AB amps. One is not 'better' than the other but to me it's not a subtle difference and I may keep both as the spend is minimal either way.

Anyway, I believe if one hears a difference they hear a difference and to that individual this is all that matters. Measurements do not and certainly others opinions do no matter, unless these do to a particular individual. ;) I do believe measurements are valuable for comparison but certainly not the whole story of how the object will sound for an individual.

I've read many of these AB, ABX, objective/subject discussions over the decades. For me, the question is not one that can be answered by anyone but one's self and yet the circular discussions persist. I suppose new people come along and have these concepts yet to work out for themselves. Perhaps I'm still working it out for myself, so say we all.

Hopefully along the way the music or gear or both is enjoyed otherwise what's the point...
 
Dec 26, 2024 at 5:01 PM Post #18,570 of 19,075
Is it wrong for a hardware maker to get the highest price for a product they make or for an individual to decide to spend their money how ever they wish regardless of others perceived value (all rhetorical).
Depends if they are lying in the marketing materials to get customers to spend their money.

Everyone seems to have their own idea of what is still acceptable and what is morally beyond the pale.

Are you OK with someone taking a $0.50 mains fuse, drilling a small hole in it, filling it with beeswax and then selling it for $300 because (so they say) they have gotten rid of the fuse wire "vibrations" that affect the sound of the amp?
 

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