Testing audiophile claims and myths

[castleofargh]

Short or long listening doesn't matter if nothing is in place to show when we're wrong.

 

[eq1849]

I would go with subjective preferences. As long as one is honest and open about that to others, and doesn't try and turn it into pseudo-scientific 'facts'.

But I think an even better question is: how much are you prepared to pay extra for something that likely is a perception bias? If science suggest it is 99% likely a perception bias, then my decision usually is based on factors other than perceived differences in sound, such as preferred aesthetics, functionality, durability etc.

Sure, listening for longer periods of time might subjectively enable perception of differences, but does it seem logical for one to enjoy or believe those differences to be real if they would not be immediately apparent when volume-matched ABing with an instantaneous switch (unless you are saying that prolonged listening enables subsequent immediate perceptibility of quick switches)? It seems like an intentional act of maximizing psychological influences and audio memory errors/drift to create a subjective effect out of one's probably measurably inert gear. Otherwise, maybe tweaking around immeasurable things really is the only psychological solution for some individuals' perception inducing hindrances that some others may not perceive at all.

I don't perceive drastic differences between quick switching anything.

If I take a sip of beer than immediately taste a similar but different... It will all taste the same to me.

If I go to the fragrance counter, after a couple whiffs it all smells the same.

If I do blind listening tests, I'll take one test in the morning, one in the evening, maybe one in the afternoon. Give myself alot of time. If I go back to back I start going random. But I seem to do well one at a time with hours between, at least on my personal tests.

Otherwise, long term seems to work, at least for me.

 

[eq1849]

Short or long listening doesn't matter if nothing is in place to show when we're wrong.

Let's not trust our senses with long term music listening in a relaxed state, but only trust our music listening senses in a confused state while taking blind listening tests?

You can do both of them, as they are not mutually exclusive.

I guess the point I'm making, you are relying on your senses in either case.

 

[danadam]

The better question is, do you go with ABX or your subjective preferences at the end of the day?

ABX only tells you if you hear a difference between A and B or not. If you do then you still have to decide, subjectively, which one you prefer. And then you can be sure that your subjective preference is guided only by the sound and not anything else.

But if you want your preference to be affected by just about anything then sure, go ahead with uncontrolled comparisons.

One would think that if someone aspires to be an audiophile then they would naturally lean to the first approach. But what do I know, maybe being an audiophile is not about audio ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let's not trust our senses with long term music listening in a relaxed state,

That's not what he's saying. He says you can't trust your senses if you do uncontrolled comparisons. Doesn't matter if they are long or short.

but only trust our music listening senses in a confused state while taking blind listening tests?

Not knowing which of the two is playing confuses you? I would be worried if it happened to me

 

[danadam]

ABX only tells you if you hear a difference between A and B or not. If you do then you still have to decide, subjectively, which one you prefer. And then you can be sure that your subjective preference is guided only by the sound and not anything else.

Actually even then you could just ignore the sound differences and go by the look or sth else. So if you are really serious about it you'd have to do some blind preference test. If you already know, from ABX, that you can distinguish them then I guess it is enough to just play both without knowing which is which and decide which you prefer. But I'm not sure if that's good enough, so don't quote me on that

 

[Elegiac]

Another fun video.

 

[castleofargh]

Let's not trust our senses with long term music listening in a relaxed state, but only trust our music listening senses in a confused state while taking blind listening tests?

You can do both, as they are not mutually exclusive.

No evidence = no reason for trust. It's not a social party, but a thread about testing the reality of something.

When someone else believes in something you don't believe, it takes zero effort to consider the chasm between his belief and reality. But doing the same thing while looking in a mirror is much harder. It's just too hard for some people. That's one reason why we have the scientific method, so it would be harder to fool ourselves and others.

 

[Vamp898]

ABX only tells you if you hear a difference between A and B or not. If you do then you still have to decide, subjectively, which one you prefer.

I would say, you have to check which one does the job wrong.

We know how the original sound signal looks like, so we can compare input <--> Output and see, what is closer.

Maybe both are wrong, maybe only one is wrong.

But i would not buy the worse amp because i prefer its distortion. Often the worse amp is the more expensive one and you can just get the cheaper one and add distortion if you really like it that much

 

[danadam]

I would say, you have to check which one does the job wrong.

There is no right and wrong with subjective preferences.

But i would not buy the worse amp because i prefer its distortion.

That's your choice. Doesn't mean it is right for everyone.

 

[Vamp898]

There is no right and wrong with subjective preferences.


That's your choice. Doesn't mean it is right for everyone.

That is correct. But you have to admit, that it is an very time consuming and also expensive gamble to see what device does what things objectively wrong to, by accident, match what you prefer subjectively.

It is much easier, faster and more effective to get something that is objectively right and modify the sound yourself that it fits 100% your subjective preference. And you can change that every day, even with every song, depending on your mood and so on. You have an clean base to work on to create what you want exactly.

It sounds insanely cumbersome to me to buy tons of cables and amps and stuff and mix them randomly together in hope that something, by accident, hits exactly your nerv and when it no longer does, you have to do it all over again.

I mean.. if there are rich people who are bored and don't know what to do with their money and time, sure, why not. Spend all your life just randomly mixing things in hope something.

But for the majority of people, they want to listen to music. That is their hobby. They do not want to constantly replace gear and hope by accident something sounds as they want. I am pretty sure, the majority of people just want something that sound correct and if they want more of something, they just change it themself.

 

[gregorio]

Let's not trust our senses with long term music listening in a relaxed state, but only trust our music listening senses in a confused state while taking blind listening tests?

You have that entirely backwards! Either you confuse your music listening sense by allowing your other senses (EG. Sight) to interfere with your music listening sense (Hearing) or you do a blind test which isolates your music listening sense and therefore it cannot be confused by your other senses!

I guess the point I'm making, you are relying on your senses in either case.

True! Either you are relying on your hearing (in the case of a blind test) or you are relying on your hearing and sight, plus all the cognitive biases knowledge from sight will cause (in the case of a sighted test). Therefore the question is: Do you want to know what your “music listening sense” (hearing) is actually telling you or do you want to know what your biases and non-music listening senses are telling you? If it’s the later that’s up to you, but of course you do not then get to claim that what you experience is due to your “music listening sense”!

Another fun video.

Yep, another audiophile nonsense video completely devoid of facts that are trivially easy to actually test. He goes on about the differences in harmonics between copper and silver but of course it’s trivially easy to objectively measure frequencies/harmonics/“tonal balance” and the claimed differences do not exist. Who would buy products made by a company who apparently don’t even know that it’s possible to measure frequency response? …

G

 

[Elegiac]

Yep, another audiophile nonsense video completely devoid of facts that are trivially easy to actually test. He goes on about the differences in harmonics between copper and silver but of course it’s trivially easy to objectively measure frequencies/harmonics/“tonal balance” and the claimed differences do not exist. Who would buy products made by a company who apparently don’t even know that it’s possible to measure frequency response? …

G

What's inside most audio cables? Ah I should just google it... copper. While I'm at this... what is the warmest cable I could get/create?

Hmm. It could be tin-coated stranded copper with red copper ends crimped into place, but with the cable direction reversed after 50 hours of burn-in.

 

[castleofargh]

What's inside most audio cables? Ah I should just google it... copper. While I'm at this... what is the warmest cable I could get/create?

Hmm. It could be tin-coated stranded copper with red copper ends crimped into place, but with the cable direction reversed after 50 hours of burn-in.

For maximum warmth, I would rely on https://marlybird.com/blog/cable-knitting-tips/

 

[2leftears]

What's inside most audio cables? Ah I should just google it... copper. While I'm at this... what is the warmest cable I could get/create?

Hmm. It could be tin-coated stranded copper with red copper ends crimped into place, but with the cable direction reversed after 50 hours of burn-in.

Resistance wire is going to get you the warmest cable. Some Constantan, or Nichrome maybe
Won't make much difference for interconnects but your constantan speaker cables might get noticeably warm.

 

[eq1849]

Not knowing which of the two is playing confuses you? I would be worried if it happened to me

Do you think the act of relaxing and listening to music is the same activity and utilizing the same set of cognitive processes as taking a test about listening to music?

If you think one DAC sounds better than another, for example, and you take an ABX test, and if you truly are biased(the point of ABX is to control bias, right) you are likely going to want to pass that test to prove the DAC you have bias towards is actually better.

So that could put pressure and stress on the person taking the test.

I think in an ideal world, the person taking the test wouldn't even know they are taking the test in the first place, nor would they have any stakes in the outcome of the test.