[Vitaly2017]

actually it depends on what you pair z1r with. it will sound lush/warmer if you pair with N6ii, DX229 vs a neutral pairing like dx220amp1

How about dx228+ ba300s oriolus) ) )

 

[Redcarmoose]

Got it, source output impedance matters because it factors in the damping factor. Probably less so with the Z1r, because of its relatively high impedance, at 40 Ohms, but it matters none the less.



Did I miss something, how did we get from damping factor to power?



It's true that this paragraph cannot get more unsubstantiated than this.



And we're back to damping factor somehow.



In audio what? Audio hobbyists? This doesn't sound like respect to me.

---

Listen, I don't want to fight. I actually really want to gain some knowledge and understanding. My ears don't hear what other people's ears hear. I don't mind that too much, but I wish I knew why that is.

Right, the guy arguing is saying he can critically measure timbre, and Paul believes that there are things in audio which are not measurable at this point. I side with Paul that there is a segment of audio timbre where the two notes from two different instruments can not be differentiated on a graph. Paul is high profile and an audio business owner so yes, your going to have videos which disregard what he says as truth.



There is a suggested impedance for amps and headphones so they play together well. Though as with anything in audio, we can believe we hear examples of better damping factor. If you don’t hear a difference between DAPs that’s definitely a reality for some. Some don’t ever hear a difference between firmware updates. Everyone hears different.

The IER-Z1R is actually difficult to drive. In my collection it’s the most difficult to drive of the handful of IEMs I use. It may not be difficult to drive in relation to other stuff I don’t own? The point is we are all trying to reach a level of perfection. Nothing is perfect but at times the IER-Z1R gets criticism for slow and sloppy low end. At times the low end is too much for some. Point being; if your amp is wrong the IER-Z1R will produce noticeable artifacts. You your self may not be aware of them, you may not hear them, but they can be measured and they are there. That’s why an iPhone is not really the perfect source. Every DAP and amplifier sounds different with every IEM I own regardless of impedance numbers? That’s me. I could be delusional and not correct as suggested physiology leads us into observation bias which can have perception skewed. I personally think the ZX300 is not optimal for the IER-Z1R as it didn’t seem that loud when I tried it. Though I have not heard it with the IER-Z1R nor with the entire range of firmware updates. I also feel the 1A and 1Z are at the absolute edge of being able to drive the IER-Z1R optimally. That’s just me. Though the new firmware 3.02 cleans up the 1Z low end making it even a better match for the IER-Z1R. IMO

Mainly much of Head-Fi is learning to hear. I perceive stuff different now than when I started here in 2006-2007. Do I hear more accurately? I probably lost hearing ability. But typically members can drift from liking a analytical flat response and chase the improvements made to the Harman Curve. Or many can go more flat. Hearing taste changes over time with new gear and new ideas as well as new tastes in music. There is no correct or not correct in tone choice. My experience leads me to hold these ideas of damping factor as the way I have moved into better sound with more powerful amps. I’ve even heard the HD800 with a 100K system which still didn’t impress me as I was after a different tone at the time. I’ve heard the Sony R-10 on a 100K system and didn’t like it as I was into a slightly different tone. Would I be impressed by those systems now? I don’t know. I listen to the Noble Encore which is very close to the IEM version of the HD800 now; though I tend to guess it’s actually warmer and has a less of a treble spike?

Most of these changes take a while to learn to hear, meaning you could go to a store or show and not notice the amp impedance change right off, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

[candlejack]

Right, the guy arguing is saying he can critically measure timbre, and Paul believes that there are things in audio which are not measurable at this point. I side with Paul that there is a segment of audio timbre where the two notes from two different instruments can not be differentiated on a graph. Paul is high profile and an audio business owner so yes, your going to have videos which disregard what he says as truth.

There is a suggested impedance for amps and headphones so they play together well. Though as with anything in audio, we can believe we hear examples of better damping factor. If you don’t hear a difference between DAPs that’s definitely a reality for some. Some don’t ever hear a difference between firmware updates. Everyone hears different.

The IER-Z1R is actually difficult to drive. In my collection it’s the most difficult to drive of the handful of IEMs I use. It may not be difficult to drive in relation to other stuff I don’t own? The point is we are all trying to reach a level of perfection. Nothing is perfect but at times the IER-Z1R gets criticism for slow and sloppy low end. At times the low end is too much for some. Point being; if your amp is wrong the IER-Z1R will produce noticeable artifacts. You your self may not be aware of them, you may not hear them, but they can be measured and they are there. That’s why an iPhone is not really the perfect source. Every DAP and amplifier sounds different with every IEM I own regardless of impedance numbers? That’s me. I could be delusional and not correct as suggested physiology leads us into observation bias which can have perception skewed. I personally think the ZX300 is not optimal for the IER-Z1R as it didn’t seem that loud when I tried it. Though I have not heard it with the IER-Z1R nor with the entire range of firmware updates. I also feel the 1A and 1Z are at the absolute edge of being able to drive the IER-Z1R optimally. That’s just me. Though the new firmware 3.02 cleans up the 1Z low end making it even a better match for the IER-Z1R. IMO

Mainly much of Head-Fi is learning to hear. I perceive stuff different now than when I started here in 2006-2007. Do I hear more accurately? I probably lost hearing ability. But typically members can drift from liking a analytical flat response and chase the improvements made to the Harman Curve. Or many can go more flat. Hearing taste changes over time with new gear and new ideas as well as new tastes in music. There is no correct or not correct in tone choice. My experience leads me to hold these ideas of damping factor as the way I have moved into better sound with more powerful amps. I’ve even heard the HD800 with a 100K system which still didn’t impress me as I was after a different tone at the time. I’ve heard the Sony R-10 on a 100K system and didn’t like it as I was into a slightly different tone. Would I be impressed by those systems now? I don’t know. I listen to the Noble Encore which is very close to the IEM version of the HD800 now; though I tend to guess it’s actually warmer and has a less of a treble spike?

Most of these changes take a while to learn to hear, meaning you could go to a store or show and not notice the amp impedance change right off, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

That's a lot of words that still don't (even attempt to) explain how more amp power makes the ier-z1r sound better. That was the original question that started this exchange between us.

I don't understand this talk of more power... Regardless of what amp you drive them with, you're feeding them the same power for the same loudness. So what are people talking about? More power that you're not going to use? What exactly do you think you're achieving if they reach ear piercing loudness at 5% max volume?

 

[gerelmx1986]

@Vitaly2017 did you got your custom tips?

 

[candlejack]

Right, the guy arguing is saying he can critically measure timbre, and Paul believes that there are things in audio which are not measurable at this point. I side with Paul that there is a segment of audio timbre where the two notes from two different instruments can not be differentiated on a graph. Paul is high profile and an audio business owner so yes, your going to have videos which disregard what he says as truth.

This bit deserves its own reply.

You know what an audio recording is? It's a measurement. The fact that you can can play a recording, hear the same note from two different instruments and recognize them to be different means that they measured differently.

 

[toranku]

This bit deserves its own reply.

You know what an audio recording is? It's a measurement. The fact that you can can play a recording, hear the same note from two different instruments and recognize them to be different means that they measured differently.

Comparison of overtones between piano, violin and trumpet playing C4. Courtesy of crinacle.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This bit deserves its own reply.

You know what an audio recording is? It's a measurement. The fact that you can can play a recording, hear the same note from two different instruments and recognize them to be different means that they measured differently.

So then you would call photographs measurements too then? OK, well the differences are small. Just like you can’t measure EMI, you can’t exactly measure the solid copper casework of the 1Z, over the aluminum case work of the 1A. There are things beyond our ability to measure. Are the measurements of film photography the same as digital photography measurements? If so why do they always look different? Everything can’t be measured.

 

[Redcarmoose]

That's a lot of words that still don't (even attempt to) explain how more amp power makes the ier-z1r sound better. That was the original question that started this exchange between us.

More amp power/damping factor creates better control over the diaphragm movements. The diaphragm starts faster, stops faster and shows higher detail in control due to the electromechanical force applied to the electrical servo which is the DD driver. It’s simple and fully understood and followed by the industry......it’s called impedance matching. Probably the third time this has been written here.

 

[nc8000]

I think it might be time to move these discussions over to the sound science forum

 

[Redcarmoose]

Comparison of overtones between piano, violin and trumpet playing C4. Courtesy of crinacle.

Different amplitudes of the fundamental.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think it might be time to move these discussions over to the sound science forum

Yes!

 

[candlejack]

I think it might be time to move these discussions over to the sound science forum

Then so should every post that claims that the z1r improves with more power, since that is a scientific observation, not something can be heard by the layman.

 

[Vitaly2017]

@Vitaly2017 did you got your custom tips?

Yes! Did you get yours to?

 

[gerelmx1986]

Yes! Did you get yours to?

Yes, but using them more.on the IER-M7

 

[Vitaly2017]

Yes, but using them more.on the IER-M7

How do you like them? Hmm why not on z1r? I find it made my z1r sound better vs eartips.

Though mine are a little bulky and very rubbery ... they are very sticky, can be tricky to snug in and out.

I find it changed the treble it became less fatiguing and not so sharp. Easier on my ears.

Also comfort wise is much better and allows me to hear more details to.

Not as sound isolating thought and I find that weird, cause custom eartips ussually are more isolating . I compare them vs final type e with acomply foam inside... vs sony stock tips they are 50% more isolative....

Overall I am happy. Still requested an readjustment in 4 spots. Concha ball and the corners they made it slightly larger, claiming that z1r is a heavy iem and they though it would hold tighter this way......