[dsperber]

FWIW, the A16 doesn't accept digital signals greater than 48kHz - I get a stuttering sound at 96kHz.

I also noticed that there's no Auro up-mixing for the "stereo" analog line inputs. It's still showing an Auro 13.1 room, but only FL and FR are active.

That said - I'm not that sold on Auromatic for 2-channel audio.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't seem to have a problem listening on the a16 with the 203 putting out 2-channel LPCM (from CD audio) on S/PDIF any of the three sampling frequencies it can be set to: 48, 96 and 192.

I just looked at the A16 manual and it does indicate these three rates are in the spec and presumably fully supported:

 

[dsperber]

Did you set the A16 to optical from the global "audio source" setting or from the "audio source" setting on the preset as well? I would see if setting both of those to optical and then enabling the auro switch would allow optical to work with Auro.

I don't use the global "audio source". It is OFF. I specifically use the preset-specific "audio source".

Also, as I'm about to write (in my next post), I'm now no longer of the opinion that the issue is related to Auro at all. Of course there may a tie-in with whatever software changes were made in 2.10 and 2.11 to support auro, and it may have seemed from my discovery yesterday that turning off Auro "magically" corrected the optical vs. coaxial issue symptoms.

But as I describe below, I now have a very different thesis on what's actually going on. My extensive testing this evening was all performed with the mast Auro switch set to DISABLED. Tonight I was purely experimenting with "basic S/PDIF input", totally unrelated to AuroMatic upmixing or anything else relating to Auro. And I was able to demonstrate both "success" as well as "failure", with Auro totally out of the story.

 

[dsperber]

Tonight I performed some serious testing and experimenting of 2ch CD audio delivered from my 203 to the A16 via optical. No coaxial cable involved. So if there is any data arriving at the A16 from the 203 it obviously must be coming from the optical cable, no matter whether the A16 display screen indicates "coaxial". Any such seeming contradictions or impossibilities are simply proof-positive of a software or hardware gltch that needs fixing.

All the testing was done with the global Auro 3D switch set to OFF, in order to eliminate Auro-related processing as a potential culprit or contributing factor. And of course I am operating in 15ch mode:

This evening I was able to replicate all of the anomalies and strange "impossible" symptoms I had first observed yesterday when I mostly had Auro set ON, when (I now believe) I eventually wrongly concluded that the problem was deep down related to Auro, and that it was the implementation of AuroMatic upmixing which was at fault. I was misled yesterday by the result of my turning Auro OFF late in the game yesterday, seemingly then producing "success", into wrongly believing it was Auro being turned off that was the explanation. But my experimental results tonight when all testing was done with Auro set OFF now convinces me that the issue is actually much more basic and that the reasons for "success" lie elsewhere. And the answer is not related to Auro (or at least not clearly related).

So I now have a very different theory as to what's actually going on. Absolutely there is a significant problem here, but I don't think it's specifically tied to Auro.

For clarity and brevity I'm just going to enumerate my notes, which describe setup, experiments, results, etc. It will probably be easiest to discuss these by number if anyone wants to comment.

(1) Auro 3D global switch set OFF (as shown in above image).

(2) I used one preset 15 configured for either optical or coaxial input:

(3) I still don't have an EXACT and reproducible recipe of precise steps to be performed in sequence that can absolutely 100% duplicate "success" or "failure" on-demand. And I believe the reason for this "erratic behavior" is that the real problem is either at the HARDWARE or SOFTWARE level, and is some kind of bug, and is obviously unintended. I actually now feel that the hardware/software "selector" of optical or coaxial S/PDIF input is "defective". Either the selection action is improperly defined and/or set and/or performed, or the hardware is in some situations failing to switch inputs as commanded, thereby leaving the previously selected input residually selected.

In other words I feel that although the programmed user interface in the "audio source" item is being properly cycled through and selected (and so the software believes that when the preset is RELOADED the correct optical/coaxial input has been correspondingly selected in hardware), this is at times not really occurring in actuality. It is "intermittent and erratic", either because of a software but or because the hardware is failing or improperly instructed to change state.

(4) Hypothesizing the truth of my above theory, this is really the only way one can explain the following results. Remember, there is ONLY an optical cable connecting the 203 to the A16, not a coaxial cable. So no matter what the onscreen user interface claims, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anything to be arriving successfully when coaxial is selected as the "audio source". Impossible. There should ALWAYS be NO SOUND. And yet BOTH of the following situations can be produced and demonstrated:

Similary, when optical is selected and "success" occurs, how is it possible for a minute later there is "failure"?

(5) I have empirically determined that if "audio source" is set to OPTICAL, and then the A16 is powered off and then powered back on, this seems to produce 100% "success" in delivering data from the 203 to the A16 via optical during the very first "test" of this after the A16 comes up from the reboot. Even if the last state before the power off/on sequence was a "failing" condition with no sound coming via optical, when the A16 is powered off and then powered back on it appears to RESET THE HARDWARE.

Part of this "power-cycle hardware reset" must clearly include the "S/PDIF selection hardware", as it is is obviously getting reinitialized somehow at boot time so the that loading of the preset now will 100% successfully select "optical" as expected. Even if things were "failing" before the power off and no data was arriving when optical was selected, after power on this no longer happens. It appears 100% that with optical still selected in the reloaded preset at boot time, everything works fine... at least until some sequence of actions once again "breaks" it.

(6) To prove that there is nothing Auro-related in my above theory attributing the symptoms to erratic hardware/software selection of optical vs. coaxial, I did perform a test with Auro 3D set ACTIVE. Continuing on with my theory about how to obtain 100% guaranteed successful results, I set the "audio source" to optical, and also set Auro 3D ENABLED. Then I powered OFF the A16, and powered it back ON. And sure enough, the AuroMatic upmixer now kicked in working on data received via optical.

(7) As long as I change nothing from its boot-time state of optical "audio source", input from optical will continue to be handled successfully, no matter whether Auro is enabled or disabled. But if I begin to play with "audio source", going back and forth between "coaxial" and "optical" (possibly going back and forth through other values in the list), this seems to be the trigger for how to play with things in order to "break it". I'm wondering whether the actual absence of a coaxial cable connected to that RCA socket is what might be hanging the hardware when it is asked to "select" either coaxial or optical. There's certainly no coaxial cable currently connected, and as long as I only use optical (from boot time forward) and never change things, optical continues to work successfully. Cycling through coaxial "audio source" definitely seems relevant to bringing the "impossible" situation to light. Obviously seeing "coaxial" and hearing sounce which can only come from optical, this should not be happening.

I am going to do some further testing involving a connected coaxial cable again. Using the same approach I discovered tonight and described above, I'm going to set things up with "audio source" of coaxial and then power off, and then power on. It will be interesting to see if this makes a difference in getting coaxial to now work.

I know I had ZERO success with coaxial yesterday, but then I had actually removed the optical cable at the same time so as not to confuse things, and I never once did a power off/on. I am going to try a new set of tests with BOTH CABLES CONNECTED, and using the power-cycle trick, to see if that makes any difference. I already know the coaxial cable I'm using is fine (as it successfully sends data to my DAC). It's really hard to believe my A16 is "broken" for coaxial.

(8) Something seems flaky in the hardware regarding going back and forth between optical and coaxial in "audio source". So it's either flawed software code that's not feeding the correct commands or data to the switcher even though what's on the screen as "audio source" is correct, or its flaky hardware/firmware responsible for choosing optical or coaxial input.

 

[esimms86]

You’re like a modern day adventurer. I admire you fearless actions.
Half the time I changed something out of curiosity or by mistake(my butt has high dexterity when it comes to using a remote), it then takes me between 10mn and 2 days to figure out how to get everything working like before.
Since I finally got it just right with HDMI and all works well 99.9% of the time, I have never dared try another input. I want to because I’m of the curious type, but the A16 has defeated me too many times now. It’s like having a cat, I know it’s the pet, but all my actions show otherwise.

Anyway, I salute you who bravely keep exploring the unknown.

I have to be totally candid here. For well over a year after I received my A16 I tended to use it so infrequently that I needed to, each time, make mistakes and muddle through just in order to regain the facility that I had developed with it the previous time I had used it. I also struggled to make my own home based PRIR which, truthfully, was always less than satisfying. I then began to wise up and started to literally take notes, writing out my own step-by-step “how to’s.”

When I finally received my in person professionally produced PRIR from John at 3D SoundShop is when the clouds started to part and the sun started to shine. I began to use the A16 much more frequently such that I began develop greater understanding of and facility with it. I now no longer feel like I don’t know how to plug in and get set to enjoy my music and videos. Putting rooms together selecting different speaker measurements, be they PCM, Atmos, DTS:X or Auro rooms, has become pretty routine. This had lead me to have several presets with different room configurations(e.g., 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 4.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc.) that I can choose at will to fit the music/movie and/or my whim. I can, for example, try out Auro-matic upmixing or I can just play the movie/music in the format that the original digital file came as. It’s all good.

I’ve also learned along the way that, for me at least, having a professionally produced in person PRIR was a game changer. Even if working with a tech savvy and meticulous buddy or neighbor, I would never in a million years have been able to produce a PRIR with such precision and without the ambient noise intrinsic to my home surroundings.

My hats off to Darryl Sperber for diving so far down the rabbit hole as part of his ongoing journey towards achieving mastery of the A16. As for me, I’m not a tinkerer to that level and I’m personally overjoyed to have arrived at where I am at this point in time. Now excuse me while I fire up the A16 and my laptop with jriver music center installed. I’ll do an A16 sound configuration in the Windows control panel, choose a preset, select an album or video, and I’ll be back in one of my favorite virtual rooms again.

 

[GeorgeA]

This morning (in Europe), I’ve noticed the United Kingdom - Business Directory at https://batodfoundation.org.uk/, where there’s a page for the Smyth Research. As part of the description one can learn about Realiser A16 “the world's most advanced 3d audio processor”.
https://batodfoundation.org.uk/smyth-research-ltd-8716832550064988999/

 

[dsperber]

Just kind of a wrapup on the past few days of trial and error...

(1) I have been 100% UNSUCCESSFUL in getting 2.0 PCM CD audio coaxial S/PDIF data coming from my 203 to work. It NEVER causes the A16 to acti to accept input and deliver sound out either as 2.0 PCM or upmixed via AuroMatic (which of course has as its prerequisite recognition of arriving PCM data). I give up. Not important, but definitely an issue for Smyth.

(2) Efforts to have a reliable 2.0 PCM CD audio via optical S/PDIF data coming from my 203 are what I'd have to describe as "stubborn to get kick-started, but eventually able to get working... perhaps only temporarily with non-working sure to return tomorrow". Undependable technique or recipe to make "audio source" specified as "optical" (obviously desirable and correct, since I'm using an optical cable going from 203 to A16) or sometimes "coaxial" (which of course makes zero sense, since I'm not using a coaxial cable).

The intermittency of success when specifying either optical vs. coaxial is obviously either a programming error, or perhaps indication of a "stuck piece of hardware" that selects the specified S/PDIF input plug connector. Either the selection is failing to pick the proper input, or the last-used input is getting "stuck", or something like this. Obviously the hardware is doing one thing while the programmed GUI (that shows "coaxial" working when obviously that is impossible since there is no coaxial cable in use but rather data can only be arriving via optical) says something else.

Also, what I had previously theorized of powering off/on being a 100% reliable way to get optical (at least) to initialize properly and always 100% be operational following a power on hardware reset turns out to NOT be 100% reliable after all. May or may not be true, depending on things as they last were working or not prior to the power off. Furthermore this obviously has no effect when attempting to use coaxial, which simply NEVER works at all.

Bottom line: use of S/PDIF for PCM by either optical (erratic and intermitten) or coaxial (ZERO probability of success, in my experience) is "fragile and delicate" at best.

(3) Turns out that even when I have gotten optical to work (either appearing as "optical" or as "coaxial") it actually does exhibit "stuttering". This is not true only at LPCM sample rates coming out of the 203 of the higher values of 96kHz and 192kHz, but even at the lowest rate 48kHz. Not terrible, and not constant, but absolutely audible and irritating and unacceptable. Definitely would never use the S/PDIF option voluntarily when HDMI (where no "stuttering" occurs ever) is available as an alternative. I don't attribute this artifact to a problematic optical cable, if there is such a thing. It's either a data issue at the 203 emitting end or at the A16 receiving end, and clearly prevents S/PDIF from being a dependable 100% reliable data transport method even just for 2.0 PCM CD audio.

(4) Giving up S/PDIF I reverted to using HDMI going forward, and I now wanted to compare the sound of 2.0 CD audio (not upmixed by AuroMatic which I know is terrific but not relevant here), delivered in three different ways:

(a) 203 -> coaxial -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones
(b) 203 -> HDMI -> A16 (with SVS active via preset/PRIR/HPEQ ) -> optical -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones
(c) 203 -> HDMI -> A16 (with "pure passthrough stereo mixdown" active, i.e. NO SVS or HPEQ) -> optical -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones

My intuition says that (a) and (c) should be identical, or very similar. Perhaps some volume level differences, but no tonal differences. At least that's what I expected to see.

To make it easy to flip between (b) and (c) I only had to adjust the preset to use my specially configured "2.0 stereo mixdown" listening room, which is created by using the AIX 5.1 PRIR to pick up just its L and R speakers to populate this 2.0 listening room speaker configuration. The only additional thing "special" to facilitate the "stereo mixdown" functionality is to turn on "stereo" as described in (8) on page 71, and again in (13) on page 72 (if you want to also use an HPEQ) and (14) (if you need to reduce the volume just for the stereo mixdown mode while leaving volume unaltered for SVS mode):

==> My experience is that I was UNABLE to turn HPEQ on as shown should be possible. I will experiment further on this issue, but for now stereo mixdown is presumably operating without the HPEQ added. So "stereo mixdown" should really be a true pass-through of the arriving CD audio straight out to the optical feed to the DAC, which is just what I'm wanting to test in (c).

Preliminary results and comments (more testing to perform, using different source content for more varied comparisons):

(a) Wonderful and crystal clear. Significantly LOUDER, with the Stax amp volume (2PM) and DAC volume (46) initially left exactly where they are when the A16 is being used. I ended up having to drop the DAC volume to 25 in order to get what subjectively I remembered as about the loudness when using the A16. But once at that level it was superb, and the Stax amp/heaphones sounded fantastic. But "headphone sound", excellent though it may be, "around my head". Stax SR-009 has stunning out-of-head presentation, but it's still "around my head".

(b) Terrific and brilliant. This is really listening through the L and R speakers at AIX, reproduced faithfully by the PRIR and HPEQ being applied through SVS. A wonderful experience, with its expected "spatial cues" of hearing the sound coming from superb L/R speakers located at +/- 30 degrees in front of me rather than sound coming from around my head. Really really enjoyable "2-speaker" listening.

(c) Not so great. Surprisingly not great. Why should this be? I would have expected it to sound pretty much just like (a) but it absolutely did not. In truth, I wasn't able to experiment with the HPEQ injected (because that settings switch wouldn't enable), but there wasn't an HPEQ involved in (a) either. also, It really might have been too loud using the current A16 volume setting I'd used with (b), so I really need to do additional tests using the stereo-mixdown-only volume adjustor to reduce the volume a bit just when in stereo mixdown mode. Perhaps that will make the result sound better. Yet to be determined. But for now I wouldn't think of using this non-SVS method of listening to CD audio, if that's what I wanted to do.

Bottom line: (a) and (b) are both superb and show off the wonders of the SR-009, as well as the A16. Different "listening experiences", but both audibly stunning. In contrast (c) is the clear and dramatic loser, though this wasn't expected to be much (if any) different from (a). I need to to spend a bit more time working this through to find out what's going on. But honestly, just as listening to 2.0 CD audio upmixed to 11.1 through AuroMatic is really stunning so that's probably how CD audio "should be listened to" if you want to really enjoy the 2.0 CD, really the next best experience is (b) which is through the magic of the A16 and SVS to reproduce listening to the sound of the L/R speakers in the AIX room.

And finally, from a "purist headphone" perspective (a) is the definite way to go, with zero tone control and zero equalization or processing of any kind added to whatever is physically on the CD itself. Pure CD transport feeding data to the DAC, where its digital-to-analog quality is on full display. And then there is the final striking experience of the Stax SM-007tII tube amp and SR-009 headphones sound system, reproducing what it has been fed. Truly "the proof is in the pudding".

 

[sander99]

Why should this be? I would have expected it to sound pretty much just like (a) but it absolutely did not. In truth, I wasn't able to experiment with the HPEQ injected (because that settings switch wouldn't enable), but there wasn't an HPEQ involved in (a) either. also, It really might have been too loud using the current A16 volume setting I'd used with (b), so I really need to do additional tests using the stereo-mixdown-only volume adjustor to reduce the volume a bit just when in stereo mixdown mode. Perhaps that will make the result sound better. Yet to be determined. But for now I wouldn't think of using this non-SVS method of listening to CD audio, if that's what I wanted to do.

Could it be that the HPEQ is used even though the slider can only be in the "HPEQ off" position? If there is a bug related to that slider, who knows...
You could try to see what happens if you select a flatEQ HPEQ.

 

[Eich1eeF]

[...]
(a) 203 -> coaxial -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones
(b) 203 -> HDMI -> A16 (with SVS active via preset/PRIR/HPEQ ) -> optical -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones
(c) 203 -> HDMI -> A16 (with "pure passthrough stereo mixdown" active, i.e. NO SVS or HPEQ) -> optical -> DAC -> XLR -> Stax amp/headphones

My intuition says that (a) and (c) should be identical, or very similar. Perhaps some volume level differences, but no tonal differences. At least that's what I expected to see.

[...]

(c) Not so great. Surprisingly not great. Why should this be? I would have expected it to sound pretty much just like (a) but it absolutely did not. In truth, I wasn't able to experiment with the HPEQ injected (because that settings switch wouldn't enable), but there wasn't an HPEQ involved in (a) either. also, It really might have been too loud using the current A16 volume setting I'd used with (b), so I really need to do additional tests using the stereo-mixdown-only volume adjustor to reduce the volume a bit just when in stereo mixdown mode. Perhaps that will make the result sound better. Yet to be determined. But for now I wouldn't think of using this non-SVS method of listening to CD audio, if that's what I wanted to do.

Have you considered measuring the digital output of the A16 from (c) with REW, possibly an offline sweep file played by the 203?

 

[audiohobbit]

Maybe a silly question, but you did press the speaker button on the remote to get to stereo mix down mode, as described in 12) on p. 72 in your preset that's prepared for stereo mix down, and the display showed "stereo mix down" in red as in the top right picture on p. 72?

 

[Monkey King]

Want to confirm something: Can sweeps now be output via the A16's SPDIF? Is that SPDIF OUT-A or B (or doesn't matter).

I've had the A16 for years but have never actually set it up because I don't have a receiver. I only have a USB DAC feeding Meridian DSP speakers whose only input is SPDIF. The last time I looked into it 2 years ago, the sweeps could only be output via the A16's analog outputs and ASYNC using WAV files were not available.

 

[Litlgi74]

Want to confirm something: Can sweeps now be output via the A16's SPDIF? Is that SPDIF OUT-A or B (or doesn't matter).

I've had the A16 for years but have never actually set it up because I don't have a receiver. I only have a USB DAC feeding Meridian DSP speakers whose only input is SPDIF. The last time I looked into it 2 years ago, the sweeps could only be output via the A16's analog outputs and ASYNC using WAV files were not available.

@Monkey King I highly recommend you purchase the asynchronous files from Gilles Gerin at https://www.smyth-realiser.fr/ You will be able to create a PRIR of your system without the need of any wired connection to the Realiser. The asynchronous files are in mp4 video format and can be played from most Blu-ray players and or media players. The best part is... The videos make the PRIR process fully automated.

You won't regret it.

 

[Eich1eeF]

@Monkey King I highly recommend you purchase the asynchronous files from Gilles Gerin at https://www.smyth-realiser.fr/ You will be able to create a PRIR of your system without the need of any wired connection to the Realiser. The asynchronous files are in mp4 video format and can be played from most Blu-ray players and or media players. The best part is... The videos make the PRIR process fully automated.

You won't regret it.

Are the stereo WAV files not available e.g. in that google drive folder? I'm not sure what's in the zip and which of those files are actually working (some are definitively broken). The Smyths definitively have the WAVs, for 7.1, and most likely for 2.0 as well, if you're lucky, they might send them to you if you just ask. The main selling point for Giles' service are the Atmos encoded async signals. I haven't seen any feedback regarding those. Does nobody use the Atmos files or do they "just work"?

 

[dsperber]

Maybe a silly question, but you did press the speaker button on the remote to get to stereo mix down mode, as described in 12) on p. 72 in your preset that's prepared for stereo mix down, and the display showed "stereo mix down" in red as in the top right picture on p. 72?

Absolutely. Everything behaved as expected. The only surprise was that it didn't sound "pure and crystal clear" as I'd expected.

But I haven't yet had a chance to get back to this to pursue it further. At the time of that first test I hadn't yet set the volume down lower by a few db for mixdown mode. And there is no question it was louder than when running in normal SVS mode. So perhaps it was too loud, and maybe that's what I was reacting negatively to. I really wanted the volume to be the same and the only difference being that the 3D forward spatial cues (of the AIX PRIR) would disappear and I would be experiencing ordinary headphone sound (from around my head) like happens with the 203 straight through the DAC and amp/headphones. Anyway I will work more on this over the weekend.

Note that it really isn't necessary to have "Loading only PCM" in the 2.0 listening room for PCM in order to facilitate what I wanted to test, when dealing with 2.0 PCM audio source coming from the player. It's already PCM to begin with, so the PCM listening room is going to be invoked automatically, with no absolute need to force it. This isn't really a true stereo mixdown situation from multi-channel input source. It's simply toggling SVS and non-SVS through the two buttons on the remote, of the [expected] straight-through handling of 2.0 PCM source. No real need to "mixdown" to 2 channels when the source is already 2 channels.

Now of course it is necessary to enable "stereo" in the Configure menu of my 2.0 PCM room, which I assume is what activates and enables the use of the two remote buttons to produce all the process toggling that goes on. And I do have "stereo" set for my 2.0 PCM room for this reason.

 

[Litlgi74]

Are the stereo WAV files not available e.g. in that google drive folder? I'm not sure what's in the zip and which of those files are actually working (some are definitively broken). The Smyths definitively have the WAVs, for 7.1, and most likely for 2.0 as well, if you're lucky, they might send them to you if you just ask. The main selling point for Giles' service are the Atmos encoded async signals. I haven't seen any feedback regarding those. Does nobody use the Atmos files or do they "just work"?

The stereo files are not available on the Google drive... And what is available is mostly incomplete.

On the other hand... The files from Gilles are wonderful and work perfectly.

 

[Eich1eeF]

Want to confirm something: Can sweeps now be output via the A16's SPDIF? Is that SPDIF OUT-A or B (or doesn't matter).

I've had the A16 for years but have never actually set it up because I don't have a receiver. I only have a USB DAC feeding Meridian DSP speakers whose only input is SPDIF. The last time I looked into it 2 years ago, the sweeps could only be output via the A16's analog outputs and ASYNC using WAV files were not available.

You don't specify how many speakers you have. If it's just 2.0, try asking the Smyths for a set of WAVs for room 60 (that's 2.0, 12s sweeps, 3 look angles). They definitively have room 14 WAVs (7.1), those might work as a fallback. Ask for permission to redistribute the files, while you're at it. For anything more than 7.1, a membership for club realiser is probably the way to go, as Litlgi74 already mentioned.