[castleofargh]

about the different types of users, I might seem weird to you, but my wish is rather basic. at night I turn off my stereo speakers because I have neighbors and don't want to be a jerk, else I would never use headphones at home. as simple as that. so to me the realiser only needs to turn my poor night experience with music and movies, into something closer to what I have on my 2 speakers in daytime(like the center image not stuck in my skull for starters). that alone makes the realiser great to me.
of course if the experience with multichannel media is really as cool as I expect it to be, I will probably spend a good deal of money on acquiring such media in the future. and will probably try to find some nice places to get room impulses. but to me that's really just a potential bonus.

 

[Evshrug]

I mean, I see the A16 as an upgrade to my Creative X7.

I like how jgazal chooses to posit questions, to lead a reader to answer the questions and eventually arrive at the same point he is trying to make. But, I'm that rude guy who tries to figure out what people are saying before they finish (in my maturity, I have learned not to interrupt out loud!), and where I THOUGHT jgazal was going with it was that an all-in-one piece of hardware is more universal. I get home from work and want to use my PC as LITTLE as possible!

I could see Smyth going for an app solution, but it would need to work with all these other different kinds of sound apps. They would have less cost sunk into hardware, but I think they would have to hire employees purely to R&D software for compatibility and a software app to control everything. And how would they encorporate the ability to use other sources from outside a PC?

Consider too, if Smyth licensed their tech out to other companies. They get to stay small while handing off the issues mentioned above to the company that licenses their tech, but there are new problems. They have to find a company that isn't trying to make their own in-house DSP/VR tech, license the SVS at a cheap enough royalty or one-time fee, provide tech support to the partner company, etc. Would Yamaha or Denon/Marantz add Smyth to their list of per-unit-royalties? Would a hardware-based company like Schiit do it? Would Smyth be willing to be wholly absorbed by another company like Dolby/DTS/Creative so those companies could improve their algorithms?

I'm not saying these obstacles are insurmountable, I'm just saying I can appreciate that the process could be difficult, and maybe require Smyth to be a different kind of company.

With my X7, I don't have to unplug anything, and all my stuff is just-play: PC, PS4 (games and movies), hell even my phone. And since I'm not constantly moving files and making changes like a PC, I like to imagine it will outlast several PC upgrades. It's my little philosopher's stone that works with everything, and I'm hoping/looking forward to the A16 being even more magical, while still being something I can just throw on and get on with enjoying myself.

 

[jgazal]

I don't like to make strong statements.

Actually, a decade ago, I was feeling similarly as phoenixdogfan when I found this news:

Smyth and Yamaha
By • Posted: Sep 16, 2006



Smyth Researth has been showing their headphone surround simulation technology (Smyth Virtual Surround or SVS) for a couple of CEDIAs now, and it looks like it is about to come to market.

The system analyzes the physical structure of the user's ears (the configuration of the outer ear and outer part of the ear canal, not the individual's hearing capability itself). With this information, it can simulate the effect of a full 5.1-channel system using earphones.

There are other technologies that claim to do the same thing, but I can state from prior show experience that SVS actually works.

According to Smyth, an accessory processing box, together with headphones, in-ear microphones for analyzing ear structure, and a remote, will be marketed by Yamaha early next year, though an ideal realization would be to incorporate the circuits in an AV receiver or pre-pro.

soundandvision.com - Smyth and Yamaha

At that time, I thought a headphone externalization product would only become popular if it reached the price and production volume of popular media players.

And I was patiently waiting for such product.

But it didn't hit the market.

That's why now I believe most people want to share their movie experience.

So a popular 3D audio rendering device for cinephiles (and maybe audiophiles) shall deliver multiple sweet spots to multiple listeners, without them wearing headphones.

We need to praise Smyth Research for implementing dual users, but I don't expect to be as popular as technologies with multiple sweet spots that don't rely on headphones transducers.

It can be more appealing to gamers and people that don't want to bother neighbors, like castleofargh.

I just think that we cannot see the essential truth of things, but we can discuss data and facts to go as far as possible.

On the other hand, you don't need to know the whole market, as Smyth does, to make your decision. You just need to know what is your desire/necessity/priority.

 

[castleofargh]

"I just think that we cannot see the essential truth of things, but we can discuss data and facts to go as far as possible."
and just like that, science was born

 
 

 

[Sordel]

So a popular 3D audio rendering device for cinephiles (and maybe audiophiles) shall deliver multiple sweet spots to multiple listeners, without them wearing headphones.

We need to praise Smyth Research for implementing dual users, but I don't expect to be as popular as technologies with multiple sweet spots that don't rely on headphones transducers.

It can be more appealing to gamers and people that don't want to bother neighbors, like @castleofargh.

 
You're laying down something of an existential challenge to Head-Fi here! 
 
Of course you're right: if people can get 3D sound without headphones, they'll want that, just like they'd like to be able to watch 3D movies without wearing the dopey spectacles. But generally people don't want a house full of cables and speakers: the cliché is that it's just the wives who worry about that, but - being honest - who really wants to give up that real estate in their listening room if they could avoid it? Furthermore, the ideal of broadcasting a good 3D image to multiple sweet spots is - as far as I know - sci-fi right now. In many real world living rooms it's difficult to get even one decent sweet spot and my wife and I have lived for years with an okay front image and a rear image skewed either left or right.
 
Unlike 3D glasses, however, headphones provide two major benefits of themselves: low leakage so that you can listen at your chosen sound pressure without bothering other people and isolation so that you don't get disturbed by traffic noise, people speaking on the phone etc. In the mass market people have their objections to headphones, yet in the streets I see plenty of people actually wearing them, and I've got to think that if you wear something in the street you'd be prepared to wear it in the privacy of your own home as well. (Applies to clothes as well!)
 
While listening with headphones represents a compromise in terms of comfort and social interaction, there is no way to experience surround sound that does not involve some sacrifice. Many people make do with inferior soundbars just because they're convenient and those Philips Fidelio soundbars already introduce the idea that you might have two separate configurations: one for regular listening and one where you can detach and reposition the satellites for 3D listening when surround really matters to you. So the market is definitely being prepared for the idea that you might want a sliding scale of 3D audio performance ... my hope is that the Smyth Realiser represents the highest quality available on that scale short of building a dedicated listening room.

 

[jgazal]

You're laying down something of an existential challenge to Head-Fi here! 

(...)

But generally people don't want a house full of cables and speakers: the cliché is that it's just the wives who worry about that, but - being honest - who really wants to give up that real estate in their listening room if they could avoid it?

Furthermore, the ideal of broadcasting a good 3D image to multiple sweet spots is - as far as I know - sci-fi right now.

(...)

my hope is that the Smyth Realiser represents the highest quality available on that scale short of building a dedicated listening room.

I wouldn't say it is an existential challenge to the headphone niche. It is more like a popularity challenge.

Please search for what professors Edgar Choueiri (xtc Bacch-dsp or bacch-sp; plus dynasonix) and Peter Otto (beamforming yarra 3d) are claiming their products offer.

If you have a limited budget and your aim is not only spatial fidelity, but also tonal fidelity, you could choose between:

A) non-isolated acoustically treated room, loudspeakers (not boutique, but pro monitors with flat frequency response measured in an anechoic chamber), xtc and room compensation DSP (or a beamforming line array...); and,

B) non-isolated and not acousticaly treated room, the faster and lower distortion headphones transducers that budget allows, an externalization DSP, a good HRTF (or PRIR) measurement.

Then I also hope, as you hope too, that the second choice can render higher tonal fidelity for the same budget.

Caveat: current recordings may not capture the acoustic signature of the recording venue, but insert artificial reverb and level differences according to the artistic choice of the mastering engineer.

When I said that I don’t expect headphones to be as popular as loudspeakers, I didn't mean to say that headphones are not going to be popular.

Although 3d spatial accuracy of virtual speakers may marvel everybody*, I just guess that consumers seeking higher tonal fidelity are outliers. There is also what Floyd Toole described as circle of confusion that may be surmounted regarding the spatial accuracy but may continue to exist in tonal accuracy.

There is something fundamental for Smyth Research in the headphone community. There are gatherings where the product can be demonstrated and, according Smyth, that translates well into new sales.

I don't remember my grandfather. He died when I was too little. But there is a tape recording that he made at some Christmas that I like to hear. My mother also died and I wish I had recorded her with my binaural microphones. I would love to hear her voice again using an externalization device.

*I still would like to compare the spatial rendering of elevation with binaural+xtc versus third order ambisonics.

 

[edwardsean]

Hi. I preordered the A16, and I'm really excited to demo it at the upcoming Axpona in Chicago. From what I understand I'll be able to get a measurement while I'm there. I'm still not altogether sure of what is involved to gain my personal HRTF, Ear response, EQ, etc. 
 
Does anyone know if I will need to bring the headphones I will use with the A16 to get a proper calibration? I'm going to use the HD800s which I believe they will have there, but of course they vary from unit to unit. 

 

[MichaelJames99]

Anyone have any thoughts on the following cans?  What I am looking for is what will sound best for movies, taking into consideration what the A16 will most likely do:
 
Soundstage
Clarity of voices (I sometimes have a hard time hearing the vocal parts of movies)
Bass for the LFE, booms
 
Hifiman HE-1000 or 1000 v2 
HifiMan Edition X v2
Mr. Speakers Ether Planar ?
Sennheiser HD-800S (not the HD800)
Sony Z1R
Audeze LCD‑3
Audeze LCD-X
Stax SR-007 Mk2  
Stax SR-L700
Oppo PM-1
Focal Utopia 
 

 

[Azurik]

Can somebody clarify for me the following please:

The A16 supports a lot of codecs (dts x, atmos, auro, etc)

If i connect my consoles which at best support DTS (games, not movies), will the A16 be able to convert and upmix that signal (or any signal) to 3d audio, or does the source need to output any of the above natively in order for it to work?

Do we know if the A16 can pass through 4k and HDR?

Thanks

 

[castleofargh]

  Hi. I preordered the A16, and I'm really excited to demo it at the upcoming Axpona in Chicago. From what I understand I'll be able to get a measurement while I'm there. I'm still not altogether sure of what is involved to gain my personal HRTF, Ear response, EQ, etc. 
 
Does anyone know if I will need to bring the headphones I will use with the A16 to get a proper calibration? I'm going to use the HD800s which I believe they will have there, but of course they vary from unit to unit. 

think of rooms and headphones as independent measurements. the only thing that really needs to be there for any measurement is your head ^_^.  that's the reference we can't do without.
then when using the A16, you pick a measured room, you pick a measured headphone and the A16 works to turn one into the other. as "simple" as that. where and when you measured each item is irrelevant.
so you can just measure your own headphone when you get the A16. in fact you might get a quieter environment at home for your measurement, and do as many trials as you like untill you really get the best result with exactly how you are used to wear you headphone in your favorite chair. what's interesting when going at the demo is that if you don't own a multichannel system, then you'll be able to use that measured room at the demo. it opens a wild variety of multichannel files to be used. and even if you do own a multichanel system or will go and measure some, who knows? you might just enjoy the room at the demo a lot and be glad you had it measured.
but your headphone is a non issue, you can measure it as many times as you like on your own.
 
 

Can somebody clarify for me the following please:

The A16 supports a lot of codecs (dts x, atmos, auro, etc)

If i connect my consoles which at best support DTS (games, not movies), will the A16 be able to convert and upmix that signal (or any signal) to 3d audio, or does the source need to output any of the above natively in order for it to work?

Do we know if the A16 can pass through 4k and HDR?

Thanks

it's like Bluetooth headphones, they will do what you feed then with, within the limit of their listed compatibility. if your source does DTS, the realiser is compatible with it, it will do DTS.
edit: that's all.  I apparently remembered wrong, see @NigelJ's post below.
 
about video resolutions, I believe there is a limitation because of the type of HDMI used(it's really just a bandwidth thing), but I'm guessing that with the proper gears(a splitter) it should always be possible to send the sound to the realiser and the video directly from the source to the screen.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I think the most interesting possibility is getting a PRIR with some super high end systems.  If you can finagle it, you might wind up with PRIR's of several million dollar systems playing on your headphones which are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing, and playing in 16 channels-- a veritable high end system store you can enjoy even if you have a 200sf "tiny home".

 

[NigelJ]

...If i connect my consoles which at best support DTS (games, not movies), will the A16 be able to convert and upmix that signal (or any signal) to 3d audio, or does the source need to output any of the above natively in order for it to work?...

The Realiser A16 includes the Illusonic up-mixer which is able to simulate additional speakers and also the Dolby and DTS up-mixers; to quote from the Kickstarter extra information:

'The algorithm suite also implements the Dolby and DTS up‐mixing routines so that legacy 5.1ch and 7.1ch bit streams can still be decoded and rendered to 7.1.4ch formats, for example. It is also possible to access both up‐mixers directly via the APM‐89L PCM inputs allowing PCM audio input via the analog, HDMI or USB to be up‐mixed prior to virtualisation through the SVS engine as an alternative to using the Illusonic up‐mixer.'​

One caution is that I do not know how good or bad these up-mixers are having never heard them, or read any reviews.

 

[m8o]

I think the most interesting possibility is getting a PRIR with some super high end systems.  If you can finagle it, you might wind up with PRIR's of several million dollar systems playing on your headphones which are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing, and playing in 16 channels-- a veritable high end system store you can enjoy even if you have a 200sf "tiny home".

Exactly, this. I imagine Smyth or some individual organizing A16 head transfer function measurement parties in a ultra high end reference room where there is a high concentration of owners; for a fee of course.

Come to think of it...
I'll have to spark up a conversation with a cousin of mine. He has many nominations and a good many Emmy and/or Oscar wins as a member of the post production sound mixing team on tv shows and movies respectively. He's always moving around who he's working with and where. But if anyone would have access to reference bleeding edge multichannel surround systems, it would be him.

 

[Erik Garci]

Has anyone ever made an outdoor PRIR? That would be one way to avoid reflections (except for the ground).

 

[RRod]

  Has anyone ever made an outdoor PRIR? That would be one way to avoid reflections (except for the ground).

 
You could always do it in free-fall, but you'd need a helluva wind screen.