[phoenixdogfan]

Certainly would be a conversation starter.  Things to consider are its transportability for use in the field for taking measurements of other high end systems, whether you can fit it into your equipment rack so you can use the head tracking while not blocking your view of your video monitor, and whether you want to use it as a headphone stand.  Personally, I'm leaning toward getting the stand version when I get my realizer.

 

[EVOLVIST]

So, let me get this straight. Let's say I'm playing the stereo mix of "A Day In the Life," coming from my PC, into my DAC, and then through my optical out of my DAC into the A16. My cans are plugged into the A16, and now, by using a pre-set PRIR file, the Beatles can be coming from 16 virtual speakers all around me, into my HD800s and into my ears, without any coloration from the A16?

 

[krismusic]

So, let me get this straight. Let's say I'm playing the stereo mix of "A Day In the Life," coming from my PC, into my DAC, and then through my optical out of my DAC into the A16. My cans are plugged into the A16, and now, by using a pre-set PRIR file, the Beatles can be coming from 16 virtual speakers all around me, into my HD800s and into my ears, without any coloration from the A16?

No.If you are playing a two channel recording, you will get a two chanel reproduction. However, rather than the usual experience of listening to headphones, it will sound as if you are listening to a pair of speakers.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

But, at least on theory, there will eventually be 16 channel program material, just as ther is 5.1 and 7.1 channel material today.
 
If you have done a 16 channel PRIR and a media player which decodes the 16 channel codec, then you will be able to route it to the A16 and from there to the headphones and get a 16 channel home theatre experience through your headphone system.

 

[djlethal]

 
Only the two "active" L/R speakers (out of the 5.1 setup) normally utilized for 2.0 content are simulated through the headphones, even if you are using a 5.1 PRIR (which measured a 5.1 loudspeaker listening environment). .
 

 
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the .1 (subwoofer) part of the 5.1 system is also used when playing back stereo content, right?
Does the Realizer integrate that part in the simulation as well, or only the satellites?

 

[jgazal]

So, let me get this straight. Let's say I'm playing the stereo mix of "A Day In the Life," coming from my PC, into my DAC, and then through my optical out of my DAC into the A16. My cans are plugged into the A16, and now, by using a pre-set PRIR file, the Beatles can be coming from 16 virtual speakers all around me, into my HD800s and into my ears, without any coloration from the A16?

Since you mentioned stereo mix upmixed to 16 channels and "coloration" I presume you had the illusonic n:m upmix in mind and how it would be compared to xtc method Erik Garci described, which can in theory result in the similar effect Professor Choueiri seems to achieve with dipole speakers and his proprietary xtc filter.
The Realiser A8 didn't have the upmix algorithm. AFAIK, Realiser A16 demonstration's are conducted with atmos encoded tracks.
So I haven't read any comparison between the illusonic upmix n:m from 2 to multichannel (I don't know if the output can be 16 channels) and the method Garci gently described, although I guess/believe they will render different results.

 

[EVOLVIST]

Since you mentioned stereo mix upmixed to 16 channels and "coloration" I presume you had the illusonic n:m upmix in mind and how it would be compared to xtc method Erik Garci described, which can in theory result in the similar effect Professor Choueiri seems to achieve with dipole speakers and his proprietary xtc filter.
The Realiser A8 didn't have the upmix algorithm. AFAIK, Realiser A16 demonstration's are conducted with atmos encoded tracks.
So I haven't read any comparison between the illusonic upmix n:m from 2 to multichannel (I don't know if the output can be 16 channels) and the method Garci gently described, although I guess/believe they will render different results.

Well, no...haha..actually nothing so complicated. I was thinking of using the room correction DSP in JRiver, where I believe you can assign stereo channels to mutiple channels in JRiver, only you cannot hear any difference on your headphones because it's still only two cups and two ears. But, my thinking is, if you assign let's say, left and right channels of the stereo mix to all of these different channels, and then feed that signal into the A16, wouldn't it then assign these channels to the PRIR file giving you, not discrete instruments in each channel, but at least an immersive sound, having the original stereo mix flying at you from different angles as speakers would?

It's not true 5.1 or 7.1, but it would create quite a beautiful sound I would think.

 

[dsperber]

   
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the .1 (subwoofer) part of the 5.1 system is also used when playing back stereo content, right?
Does the Realizer integrate that part in the simulation as well, or only the satellites?

 
The .1 (subwoofer) part of audio system output is due to the crossover in the amp/output stage, not because it is coming from the actual 2.0 stereo audio program.  Generally the subwoofer produces "better sounding low frequency bass" than do "full-range speakers" for the same frequency, hence the typical addition of a .1 subwoofer even in 2.1 computer speaker setups.  That's why sub-woofers exist.
 
The Realiser has a similar built-in 80hz crossover by default, so that if you are using say a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR and you feed it 2.0 source, it will in fact feed the sound below 80hz to the output "virtual .1 sub-woofer", same as would have occurred in the original listening environment room in which the PRIR was measured.  So again, listening through the Realiser this "virtual 2.1" sounds "better" than "virtual 2.0" (e.g. if you were to inhibit the default built-in 80hz crossover), because the ".1 virtual sub-woofer" reproduces low-frequency bass "better" than the "virtual 2.0" speakers do.
 
The PRIR measurement for the listening environment room sends the complete sweep frequency test signal through each and every speaker (including the .1 speaker), one at a time so as to isolate to your ears/brain how each of those speakers sounds individually when sent any frequency to reproduce.  During the PRIR creation process, the calibration microphones in each of your ears detected the cutoff of those low frequencies from the individual non-.1 speakers as each was driven, resulting from whatever the crossover in the electronics of the room produced, which we know (when all speakers were active) would be redirected to the .1 speaker.  And of course the sub-swoofer seems a corresponding inverse cutoff for frequencies above 80hz.  When the PRIR is then used to play back any source audio program (of ANY number of source channels), the intent of the Realiser is to reproduce sound exactly as it was heard through the original loudspeakers and electronics and ambient environment of the listening room described by that PRIR.  The "Realiser-imputed virtual crossover" effect of playing 2.0 source through a PRIR reflecting the availability of a .1 speaker plus crossover in the original room is how that gets accomplished.
 
Again, this is why listening to 2.0 audio through normal headphones is quite a different experience from listening to the same 2.0 audio in a real 5.1/7/1 room where the three relevant loudspeakers are in FRONT of you and electronics/crossover produce a 2.1 auditory result IN FRONT OF YOU (well, the .1 might be anywhere) for your ears and brain to process.  The Realiser is trying to duplicate through headphones what it would have sounded like to your ears if played in the real room (which did in fact make use of the 2.1 speakers) , and is not trying to be "normal 2.0 headphones".

 

[dsperber]

So, let me get this straight. Let's say I'm playing the stereo mix of "A Day In the Life," coming from my PC, into my DAC, and then through my optical out of my DAC into the A16. My cans are plugged into the A16, and now, by using a pre-set PRIR file, the Beatles can be coming from 16 virtual speakers all around me, into my HD800s and into my ears, without any coloration from the A16?

If you had a 16-channel PRIR, measured in some room that had 16 real speakers, then the Realiser will reproduce the sound through 2-channel stereo headphones of that 16-speaker room when any multi-channel source audio program is fed to it, exactly as that same multi-channel source audio program would have sounded if played in the original room.
 
If you play the 2.0 stereo mix in that 16-speaker room which you created the 16-channel PRIR for, the 2.0 source program would normally only use 2.0 (or more likely 2.1) speakers of the 16 available speakers.  None of the other 13 speakers would come into play.  That's how it would have been heard had you been seated in the room represented by that 16-channel PRIR if you played 2.0 source, and that's how it will sound through the Realiser and headphones using that 16-channel PRIR to play 2.0 source.  You will NOT hear the 2.0 program through all 16-channels of virtual speakers, same as you would NOT hear the 2.0 program through all other speakers in the 16-channel real room.
 
Now, if you had this in mind when you were in the listening environment creating your PRIR, and you wanted to create a separate second PRIR which reflected how that 16-channel room actually sounded if the "stadium DSP" effect was enabled through the electronics (i.e. non-16-channel source matrixed electronically into being output from all 16 speakers, including running the Realiser test sweep frequencies normally targeted for each individual speaker discretely one at a time but now through the same "stadium DSP" so as to produce sound intended for one speaker through all 16 speakers, same as your ears would hear it sitting there), then you could subsequently use that second PRIR for playback of 2.0 source and it would sound just like that room did when the "stadium DSP" effect was being used.  Now you would hear the 2.0 source through all virtual 16 speakers, same as it would have sounded in the real room. 
 
And to make the point again, the PRIR is created to capture how a particular listening room sounds to your ears and brain (not someone else's) when any given sound frequency is sent to any of the available real loudspeakers in that room.  Whatever caused the sound of that room to be "heard and processed" by your own personal hearing system (ears, skull, brain, etc.) that's what the microphones in each of your ears are capturing.  Speaker brand, size, location (relative to where you're seated), electronics, DSP-processing potential for "effects", floor/wall/ceiling treatments and baffles, etc., etc.  Whatever causes the sound of that particular listening environment to be whatever it sounds like to you, that's what that PRIR reflects.  It's not meant to describe any other room, nor how any other person would have heard the sound of that same room had they had their own custom PRIR also created.
 
That's why two people must each have their own custom PRIR measured for a single listening room, if you want to both "listen simultaneously as if in that same room" during playback of any source program.  The Realiser will be using the two separate PRIR's independently to reproduce that same single room to each of two separate hearing systems as the two of you possess.  A PRIR is not a "one size fits all" to describe a given listening environment (as, for example, the Dolby Headphone processing notion might be described as).  It also includes YOUR HEARING SYSTEM in that description (just like prescription eyeglasses for YOUR EYES ALONE, but for your ears).

 

[Evshrug]

Anyone know more about Dolby ATMOS? Apparently, the media jut sends positional data to the processor (usually an AVR), and then the processor decides which speaker to play the sound from "on-the-fly" or "live," unlike premixed 5.1 and 7.1 home theater speaker mixes of the past. Conceivably, the Dolby ATMOS setup is expandable, then? Would be nice if somehow it would allow for speakers below ground level.

 

[EVOLVIST]

 
And to make the point again, the PRIR is created to capture how a particular listening room sounds to your ears and brain (not someone else's) when any given sound frequency is sent to any of the available real loudspeakers in that room.  Whatever caused the sound of that room to be "heard and processed" by your own personal hearing system (ears, skull, brain, etc.) that's what the microphones in each of your ears are capturing.  Speaker brand, size, location (relative to where you're seated), electronics, DSP-processing potential for "effects", floor/wall/ceiling treatments and baffles, etc., etc.  Whatever causes the sound of that particular listening environment to be whatever it sounds like to you, that's what that PRIR reflects.  It's not meant to describe any other room, nor how any other person would have heard the sound of that same room had they had their own custom PRIR also created.
 
That's why two people must each have their own custom PRIR measured for a single listening room, if you want to both "listen simultaneously as if in that same room" during playback of any source program.  The Realiser will be using the two separate PRIR's independently to reproduce that same single room to each of two separate hearing systems as the two of you possess.  A PRIR is not a "one size fits all" to describe a given listening environment (as, for example, the Dolby Headphone processing notion might be described as).  It also includes YOUR HEARING SYSTEM in that description (just like prescription eyeglasses for YOUR EYES ALONE, but for your ears).

 
Then why is the company making available and/or selling PRIR files for the A16 that replicates certain fancy room setups, as well as pre-sets, inside of the machine? That's where I'm getting my wires crossed, because that's what it says in the Munich video. The video says "Preinstalled with a range of non-personalized rooms," and "More sound rooms will be available to download." Moreover, if two people had to have their own "custom" PRIR how could you even demo the thing with 20 people, or how many people are going to go about booking studio time to have their own personal PRIR files made?
 
Now, I'm coming into this discussion cold, having no previous experience, nor a concept of how it works, but there seems to be conflicting information, or maybe I'm just plum dumb (which very well may be).

 

[RRod]

   
Then why is the company making available and/or selling PRIR files for the A16 that replicates certain fancy room setups, as well as pre-sets, inside of the machine? That's where I'm getting my wires crossed, because that's what it says in the Munich video. The video says "Preinstalled with a range of non-personalized rooms," and "More sound rooms will be available to download." Moreover, if two people had to have their own "custom" PRIR how could you even demo the thing with 20 people, or how many people are going to go about booking studio time to have their own personal PRIR files made?

 
"Non-personalized" = measured via a dummy head. Many people can still hear decent to even good virtualization from a dummy head measurement, and certain aspects of the sound such as room reverb aren't intimately tied to ear/head/torso dimensions. People also have some ability to "learn" a non-personalized measurement, but I don't have the reference on that off-hand so don't quote me on it.

 

[Evshrug]

Then why is the company making available and/or selling PRIR files for the A16 that replicates certain fancy room setups, as well as pre-sets, inside of the machine?

I'm not first-hand experienced with this either, but let me share some things I've gleaned from reading.

The most ideal setup will be from putting mics in your ears, listening/calibrating to a well-set-up speaker theater. This makes a custom PRIR. Then take a reading with your headphones and in-ear mics. That's like a HPEQ or something (running out of time on my break). The Realizer will analyze that data and create a holographic simulation.

Less ideally, the Realizer can take a previous PRIR, compare it to a generalized dummy-head-recorded PRIR, and create a kind of melded final result. It's still personalized to how your ears interact with your headphones and to some extent how your ears and upper body interacted with speakers, but not sound exactly like the real speakers did.

Lastly, you can take someone else's PRIR and just use that with no customization.

 

[NigelJ]

...Then why is the company making available and/or selling PRIR files for the A16 that replicates certain fancy room setups, as well as pre-sets, inside of the machine? That's where I'm getting my wires crossed, because that's what it says in the Munich video. The video says "Preinstalled with a range of non-personalized rooms," and "More sound rooms will be available to download." Moreover, if two people had to have their own "custom" PRIR how could you even demo the thing with 20 people, or how many people are going to go about booking studio time to have their own personal PRIR files made?...

You need to understand that the Realiser Exchange (see http://www.smyth-research.com/vaxchange.html for more information) is something new, due to launch in Q1 2017, offering new capabilities. However, no one outside Smyth Research, or others bound by a non-disclosure agreement, have yet tested these new abilities.

Currently, with the A8 Realiser, a generic PRIR is pre-installed so that the system will work before personalisation. Some people find this PRIR works reasonably well, whilst others find it rather poor; it all depends upon their personal HRTF and how well it matches the person or dummy head used to generate the PRIR. The main issue appears to be how well individual speakers can be localised compared with their actual positions; individual frequency response is largely addressed by the HPEQ.

There is also a PRIR exchange thread on Head-Fi (http://www.head-fi.org/t/610920/smyth-svs-realiser-prir-exchange-thread) where people can try PRIRs produced by others. If you read through the thread you will find that some people are well matched and can make good use of the PRIRs from certain other contributors, whereas others can't find PRIRs that work well for them, it is likely that they fall near the extremes of the population. Indeed whilst I attended the demonstration at CanJam London one of the Smyth brothers (I think it was Stephen) stated that whilst he had visited AIX Studios in LA many times for PRIR measurements, he had never had time to do a personal measurement; however, he was able to successfully use AIX PRIRs created for other people.

For the future, Smyth Research have come up with a way to personalise a PRIR created for someone else to better match an individual's physiology. The ability to do this will be offered via the new Realiser Exchange. However, it is stated that a personalised PRIR will not be as good as a personal PRIR measured for the individual in the source room. Even if not quite perfect, this new ability should allow people to be able to use PRIRs for locations that they cannot go to record their own, be it on grounds of cost, distance to travel or restricted access to the location. From what I have read it is not clear to me whether a PRIR can, and needs to be, de-personalised before being made available on the Exchange, in order to allow later personalisation by someone else, or whether the original personal PRIR is made available and the personalisation is a single stage process.

As far as demonstrations go, Smyth Research may use generic profiles and/or, as at Munich and CanJam London 2016, individually measure the participant's PRIR and HPEQ. If requested they would save the PRIR and later make it available when you purchased a Realiser, so I will have one personal PRIR already when I get my Kickstarter A16 Realiser.

I believe some of your confusion is caused by people with much experience of the A8 providing helpful comments but not yet understanding what the Realiser Exchange may be able to offer.

 

[pervysage]

I'm not first-hand experienced with this either, but let me share some things I've gleaned from reading.

The most ideal setup will be from putting mics in your ears, listening/calibrating to a well-set-up speaker theater. This makes a custom PRIR. Then take a reading with your headphones and in-ear mics. That's like a HCIR or something (running out of time on my break). The Realizer will analyze that data and create a holographic simulation.

Less ideally, the Realizer can take a previous PRIR, compare it to a generalized dummy-head-recorded PRIR, and create a kind of melded final result. It's still personalized to how your ears interact with your headphones and to some extent how your ears and upper body interacted with speakers, but not sound exactly like the real speakers did.

Lastly, you can take someone else's PRIR and just use that with no customization.

I would say that is a decent explanation. I basically have the same level of understanding at the moment, lol.

I asked Smyth directly about how good the "melding" would be and he said it would give you 95‰ of the performance that a real personalized PRIR would give you.

That's pretty damn good IMO, if accurate.