[nick n]

What mods did you do to the ECA-80 unit? Just curious.

Thanks very much for the post always been curious about these Pioneers.

Not saying to do this, but very careful light application and proper buffing of shoe polish ( maybe Parade Gloss ) on that headband style often works well. I have done it on other older Pioneer arched ones before.

 

[Chefguru]

After an extended period of searching... Pioneer SE-1000.



Pioneer's first and only electrostatic headphone, similar in appearance to Sony's electrostatic offering from roughly the same time period.



Three units showed up nearly all at once, with one having it's original box and another having the energizer. This pair had neither, and unfortunately sold for the most... and was the first of the three that I heard wind of.

If I tally up every real pair I've ever seen, there are five of them -- one on a Chinese auction site for $Hell.No, one on display in a small local Hi-Fi store, and the three that just sold on Yahoo Auctions. The only other surviving photo is a product render from a European Hi-Fi catalog from the early 1980s. That's it -- no reviews, no product brochure, no official Pioneer catalog. For the longest time, these were nothing but a ghost.

And now here they are.



Since I don't have the energizer, I had to figure out the pinout of the (proprietary) connector manually. It is similar in appearance to a standard 6-pin DIN connector but has brass pins that are presumably rated for much higher voltage and there's some keying on the sleeve to prevent you from plugging it into something awry.



Working around this annoyingly tiny plug took a bit of nerve-racking prodding with a multimeter and some patience, but I was able to map out every pin. I've made this simple diagram in the hopes that it may help anyone else unfortunate enough to find these without the (also proprietary) adapter box.



These are a roughly 60mm x 75mm procedural oval driver, similar to the Stax SR-Lambda in design, with a peculiar earpiece design that pivots separately from the headband joint. The stators are either copper or brass, with a polymer dust cover on the front and a silk one on the back. There's a small gap between the rear cover and the metal mesh, which is filled with the now-coveted micro fiberglass damping pucks that are commonly found in headphones from this time period. The strut through the middle is only for structural support; this is a single-panel, monolithic stat driver.

According to FC2, a Japanese headphone museum with an incredibly helpful website, the diaphragm is a 2.5 micron membrane. I do not know where this spec was taken from, or if it takes the diaphragm coating into account, but it is a little bit on the thick side for a stat of this size. The original SR-Lambda has a 2 micron membrane with coating, and though this driver is wider than a lambda, it is also considerably shorter. The intended bias voltage is unknown, but given the time period it is almost certainly somewhere in the 200V range. They comfortably run off of Stax's Normal Bias standard (230V) with no issues.

I was able to get some preliminary measurements of this headphone using a modified ECA-80 and a pair of cheap and very reflective faux leather earpads I had on hand. I have a pair of period-correct Pioneer pads on the way that will be a much better fit, but for now... I am nearly speechless.



These are good.

Wow ! When you say they run off NB, is that with an adapter or just fits and everything is lined up correctly?

 

[takato14]

What mods did you do to the ECA-80 unit? Just curious.

The only change right now is the removal of one of the (proprietary) Sony plugs in exchange for a standard 6-pin Amphenol, like the ones you'd find on a Stax energizer. This is quite a simple procedure as long as you can find the (out-of-production) Amphenol sockets and is very much worth it imo, as the resulting unit performs far superior to any Stax-made solution and almost doesn't even appear to be modified. Unfortunately, this particular ECA-80 has started developing some issues with the relays and protection circuit that I will eventually need to tackle, and will likely receive some additional changes in the future. For now, all you really need to know is that A: I'm technically running the Pioneers at 210V instead of 230V (negligible), and B: the bass rolloff is far greater than one should expect off of virtually any other Stax energizer or transformer solution due to how close I am to the max input of the device.

Since this box was only ever designed with one headphone in mind, Sony was able to program the protection circuit to cut power at the <exact> moment the headphones would be in danger of arcing, which is really cool -- and also really inconvenient, as the Pioneers are considerably less sensitive than the ECR-800. This lower sensitivity does suggest that the Pioneers may operate at a higher bias voltage than usual for headphones of this time period, but the only way to be certain would be to either test the output of the original HA-1000 adapter, or to dismantle the driver and measure the D/S gap with a micrometer to determine the maximum safe operating voltage. Care to wager a guess which of the two I'm banking on? ^^;

Wow ! When you say they run off NB, is that with an adapter or just fits and everything is lined up correctly?

One could not be so lucky... currently, I'm using an absolutely terrifying passive "adapter" consisting of a few strands of HV wire and some bare XLR pins/pin sockets I harvested from some extra Neutriks I had lying around. The air gap between the pins is around 1.5 millimeters at it's smallest, which gives an effective electrtical insulation of around 3KV. So, technically, it is """safe""" -- for the headphones.

I actually don't quite have enough pins to wire up both channels simultaneously just yet, so I had to order another female plug... which I am still waiting for. Once I have all the pins, I'm having my boyfriend mill a couple pin plates for me and will make a nice and tidy little dongle cable to sit between the cans and the transformer box.

Until then: yes, I shocked myself, and will probably do so again. At least now I know what 230V 210V feels like! Take that, Europeans

 

[fidgeraldo]

At least now I know what 230V 210V feels like! Take that, Europeans

Basically, it's Edison vs Tesla. We all know who The genius of the last two centuries was.

Cheers!

 

[Reputator]

The only change right now is the removal of one of the (proprietary) Sony plugs in exchange for a standard 6-pin Amphenol, like the ones you'd find on a Stax energizer. This is quite a simple procedure as long as you can find the (out-of-production) Amphenol sockets and is very much worth it imo, as the resulting unit performs far superior to any Stax-made solution and almost doesn't even appear to be modified. Unfortunately, this particular ECA-80 has started developing some issues with the relays and protection circuit that I will eventually need to tackle, and will likely receive some additional changes in the future. For now, all you really need to know is that A: I'm technically running the Pioneers at 210V instead of 230V (negligible), and B: the bass rolloff is far greater than one should expect off of virtually any other Stax energizer or transformer solution due to how close I am to the max input of the device.

Since this box was only ever designed with one headphone in mind, Sony was able to program the protection circuit to cut power at the <exact> moment the headphones would be in danger of arcing, which is really cool -- and also really inconvenient, as the Pioneers are considerably less sensitive than the ECR-800. This lower sensitivity does suggest that the Pioneers may operate at a higher bias voltage than usual for headphones of this time period, but the only way to be certain would be to either test the output of the original HA-1000 adapter, or to dismantle the driver and measure the D/S gap with a micrometer to determine the maximum safe operating voltage. Care to wager a guess which of the two I'm banking on? ^^;






One could not be so lucky... currently, I'm using an absolutely terrifying passive "adapter" consisting of a few strands of HV wire and some bare XLR pins/pin sockets I harvested from some extra Neutriks I had lying around. The air gap between the pins is around 1.5 millimeters at it's smallest, which gives an effective electrtical insulation of around 3KV. So, technically, it is """safe""" -- for the headphones.

I actually don't quite have enough pins to wire up both channels simultaneously just yet, so I had to order another female plug... which I am still waiting for. Once I have all the pins, I'm having my boyfriend mill a couple pin plates for me and will make a nice and tidy little dongle cable to sit between the cans and the transformer box.

Until then: yes, I shocked myself, and will probably do so again. At least now I know what 230V 210V feels like! Take that, Europeans

Oooof... Absolutely nothing sketchy about that!

 

[Chefguru]

The only change right now is the removal of one of the (proprietary) Sony plugs in exchange for a standard 6-pin Amphenol, like the ones you'd find on a Stax energizer. This is quite a simple procedure as long as you can find the (out-of-production) Amphenol sockets and is very much worth it imo, as the resulting unit performs far superior to any Stax-made solution and almost doesn't even appear to be modified. Unfortunately, this particular ECA-80 has started developing some issues with the relays and protection circuit that I will eventually need to tackle, and will likely receive some additional changes in the future. For now, all you really need to know is that A: I'm technically running the Pioneers at 210V instead of 230V (negligible), and B: the bass rolloff is far greater than one should expect off of virtually any other Stax energizer or transformer solution due to how close I am to the max input of the device.

Since this box was only ever designed with one headphone in mind, Sony was able to program the protection circuit to cut power at the <exact> moment the headphones would be in danger of arcing, which is really cool -- and also really inconvenient, as the Pioneers are considerably less sensitive than the ECR-800. This lower sensitivity does suggest that the Pioneers may operate at a higher bias voltage than usual for headphones of this time period, but the only way to be certain would be to either test the output of the original HA-1000 adapter, or to dismantle the driver and measure the D/S gap with a micrometer to determine the maximum safe operating voltage. Care to wager a guess which of the two I'm banking on? ^^;






One could not be so lucky... currently, I'm using an absolutely terrifying passive "adapter" consisting of a few strands of HV wire and some bare XLR pins/pin sockets I harvested from some extra Neutriks I had lying around. The air gap between the pins is around 1.5 millimeters at it's smallest, which gives an effective electrtical insulation of around 3KV. So, technically, it is """safe""" -- for the headphones.

I actually don't quite have enough pins to wire up both channels simultaneously just yet, so I had to order another female plug... which I am still waiting for. Once I have all the pins, I'm having my boyfriend mill a couple pin plates for me and will make a nice and tidy little dongle cable to sit between the cans and the transformer box.

Until then: yes, I shocked myself, and will probably do so again. At least now I know what 230V 210V feels like! Take that, Europeans

Wow … yeah don’t touch those wires when it’s on hahahaha ! Exciting stuff.
What was the price on the unit ?

 

[takato14]

What was the price on the unit ?

Entirely too much. With things like this, one of two things happens:

A: The headphones sell for pennies, since hardly anyone knows they exist. Or...
B: Multiple collectors catch wind of them at once, and the price goes ballistic.

Unfortunately, this was a case of the latter.

Rarity and performance aside, please consider your options if my postings about them cause more pairs to suddenly materialize out of the woodworks. These are quite a high-effort piece of equipment on the restoration side of things. They will likely require a lot of work no matter what condition they show up in, as they will almost certainly always be without pads and are the oh-so-inconvenient "60-to-80mm on-ear" variety of vintage gear that are nearly impossible to find suitable new-production replacements for. If preliminary testing is anything to go by, I will likely end up needing to make my own pads from scratch...

 

[Bingturong]

Entirely too much. With things like this, one of two things happens:

A: The headphones sell for pennies, since hardly anyone knows they exist. Or...
B: Multiple collectors catch wind of them at once, and the price goes ballistic.

Unfortunately, this was a case of the latter.

Rarity and performance aside, please consider your options if my postings about them cause more pairs to suddenly materialize out of the woodworks. These are quite a high-effort piece of equipment on the restoration side of things. They will likely require a lot of work no matter what condition they show up in, as they will almost certainly always be without pads and are the oh-so-inconvenient "60-to-80mm on-ear" variety of vintage gear that are nearly impossible to find suitable new-production replacements for. If preliminary testing is anything to go by, I will likely end up needing to make my own pads from scratch...

How do they compare to the lambda signature?

Looking at the construction, this is entirely Pioneer made. The driver design with the support is actually more in common with Koss than Stax designs. Stax did A LOT of OEMs and not just the Micro Seiki or SR-3 OEMs but this doesn't have a single hallmark of a Stax made, except for the copious amounts of mineral wool. Definitely not an Elega OEM like the SE-100 is.

Really looks like Pioneer took it upon themselves and designed something from scratch! I really hope an adapter for one of these pops up, I'm very curious about the circuit on those

 

[ludoo]

After an extended period of searching... Pioneer SE-1000.

I tried bidding on the Y! JP pair last week, and dropped out fairly quickly as the price was going up. This is awesome and I'm really glad you got a pair and are sharing this!

 

[takato14]

How do they compare to the lambda signature?

Looking at the construction, this is entirely Pioneer made. The driver design with the support is actually more in common with Koss than Stax designs. Stax did A LOT of OEMs and not just the Micro Seiki or SR-3 OEMs but this doesn't have a single hallmark of a Stax made, except for the copious amounts of mineral wool. Definitely not an Elega OEM like the SE-100 is.

Really looks like Pioneer took it upon themselves and designed something from scratch! I really hope an adapter for one of these pops up, I'm very curious about the circuit on those

Much darker. FR comparison between the two tells you most of what you need to know... most of it. The Pioneers have a noticeable jump right around the "air" region and a hole in the mid treble, while the lambdas sound much more forward and closer to "neutral" if you can get over the collapsed lambda soundstage. Resolution seems comparable... probably. The measurements don't agree and I'm not able to listen much louder than 80dB peak with the good transformers, so take that with a grain of salt.

As time has gone on, I have found myself less and less willing to deal with the upper mids on the Lambda Signature, which is definitely not heard exactly as measured -- think 3dB, not 7 -- but only because I now have other stats in my lineup to choose from and a source chain that isn't holding any of my headphones back. The absolutely insane resolution afforded by the Signatures is quite hard to overstate, but when you're dealing with a difference of less than a couple microns, you are quite literally splitting hairs on the mechanical side of things. The wider side of the Pioneers probably does more for resolution than the (roughly) halved diaphragm thickness does, since the effective difference in mass between the two is likely in the micrograms range.

Looking at the construction, this is entirely Pioneer made. The driver design with the support is actually more in common with Koss than Stax designs. Stax did A LOT of OEMs and not just the Micro Seiki or SR-3 OEMs but this doesn't have a single hallmark of a Stax made, except for the copious amounts of mineral wool. Definitely not an Elega OEM like the SE-100 is.

Really looks like Pioneer took it upon themselves and designed something from scratch! I really hope an adapter for one of these pops up, I'm very curious about the circuit on those

Addressing this later... need to take additional photos.

 

[Philimon]

As time has gone on, I have found myself less and less willing to deal with the upper mids on the Lambda Signature

With pad adapters (SOCAS) on L500 I was able to level the upper mids using what appear to be Brainwavz hybrid pads. I sealed the extra SOCAS pad adapter vents because they are detrimental imo. fyi, socas sells a version of the adapters without vents.

*EARS, SRD-7mk2

edit: yes i love it and sold my other (unloved) Lambda(s)

 

[Philimon]

Toshiba HR-810

Unfortunately one side has much lower volume. Any way to save?

Update: @khbaur330162 accepted as-parts, khbaur disassembled plug to inspect and when reassembled imbalance was gone so HR-810 lives on!

 

[khbaur330162]

Update: @khbaur330162 accepted as-parts, khbaur disassembled plug to inspect and when reassembled imbalance was gone so HR-810 lives on!

Oh, whoa. These headphones are celebrities. I was unaware.

Yes, yes. I opened up the little TRS plug / ?transformer case? and in doing so found both channels are fine. If I reinstall the other 1/2 of the clamshell design it pushes on one of the transformers and it shorts out. I have not yet sussed out exactly where it is shorting out. I need to somehow insulate this point of failure and glue the case back shut.

Polite in bass, slightly veiled in midrange possibly, but acclimated to easily. I do suspect the small coin sized transformers are bottlenecking performance heavily. What potential these drivers have I couldn't say with certainty. Better transformer box, maybe different housing with circumaural earpads and they skyrocket??? Who knows, I doubt I will go there. Interesting little suckers and honestly quite enjoyable listen. Nice find @Philimon !!!

 

[takato14]

With pad adapters (SOCAS) on L500 I was able to level the upper mids using what appear to be Brainwavz hybrid pads. I sealed the extra SOCAS pad adapter vents because they are detrimental imo. fyi, socas sells a version of the adapters without vents.

*EARS, SRD-7mk2

edit: yes i love it and sold my other (unloved) Lambda(s)

While I have toyed around with the idea of custom lambda pads, it's imperative to never replace pads on a lambda signature unless they are expressly designed for it.

The ear side volume of lambda signature is kept at a high static pressure (tight seal) to allow for bass extension, and the pads are deliberately designed to be a little on the stiff side so they don't compress when worn. If you were to put those Brainwavz pads onto a signature, you would destroy it, if not immediately then over time as the excess pressure exerted by the motion of the headphones when they are worn stretches and warps the diaphragm.

This may sound absurd, but the signature specifically has a 1-micron membrane after coating, and can be even thinner if you find an exceptionally early unit. That's 1/100th of the thickness of the average human hair. It's actually similarly unsafe to run them without a tight seal, because the diaphragm will stretch without the static pressure of the pad volume suspending it in place. The also 1-micron Sigma Pro is known to destroy itself in a similar fashion under normal operation, because Stax simply did not have data on how these drivers would fare under repeat stress.

Because of these failures the signature's diaphragm thickness was changed not once, but twice, starting at 1 micron before coating and eventually settling at 1.2 microns after the coating process, which depletes the film slightly due to the high heat involved. There's always a chance your unit is one of the later, more reliable drivers... but it's not something you should ever chance, and I have my doubts that an alternate pad could improve the headphone in the first place given how exceptionally well-tuned it is.

 

[Bingturong]

While I have toyed around with the idea of custom lambda pads, it's imperative to never replace pads on a lambda signature unless they are expressly designed for it.

The ear side volume of lambda signature is kept at a high static pressure (tight seal) to allow for bass extension, and the pads are deliberately designed to be a little on the stiff side so they don't compress when worn. If you were to put those Brainwavz pads onto a signature, you would destroy it, if not immediately then over time as the excess pressure exerted by the motion of the headphones when they are worn stretches and warps the diaphragm.

This may sound absurd, but the signature specifically has a 1-micron membrane after coating, and can be even thinner if you find an exceptionally early unit. That's 1/100th of the thickness of the average human hair. It's actually similarly unsafe to run them without a tight seal, because the diaphragm will stretch without the static pressure of the pad volume suspending it in place. The also 1-micron Sigma Pro is known to destroy itself in a similar fashion under normal operation, because Stax simply did not have data on how these drivers would fare under repeat stress.

Because of these failures the signature's diaphragm thickness was changed not once, but twice, starting at 1 micron before coating and eventually settling at 1.2 microns after the coating process, which depletes the film slightly due to the high heat involved. There's always a chance your unit is one of the later, more reliable drivers... but it's not something you should ever chance, and I have my doubts that an alternate pad could improve the headphone in the first place given how exceptionally well-tuned it is.

Pretty much agreed, a similar thing goes for the original Lambda.

The original Lambda is just, so well done that everything seems to be tuned perfectly.

It's a shame the glue is gone in mine...

Still squeals when first charged on pro bias, as much as I got the dust out as I could. Amazing sound but the dust issue means these will be staying in a bag and stored until I can repair the dust cover and try to get all the dust out