[Reputator]

Just got these ones in.



More pictures:

Spoiler

Pioneer SE-700 in absolutely amazing condition. Popped up on eBay for what would've been a very reasonable price for the headphones themselves, but this one came with an incredibly PRISTINE vinyl case with no cracks or splitting anywhere. I'm dumbfounded by that. The original paperwork sure doesn't hurt either. Sorry if you were one of the ones watching these!

These headphones debuted in 1974, and sure enough the manufacturer date is week 40, 1974. That would have been between Sept. 30 and Oct. 6, so it just had its 49th birthday a couple weeks ago.



In use the drivers want to cut in and out when I first start playing music. It's not the cable I don't think, because moving it around doesn't help. The piezoelectric drivers just seem to need to wake up, but once it's been going for a while they stay on and the center image is perfectly aligned in the middle.

These are absolute SPEED DEMONS. I'm not sure I have a more detailed headphone than this. It has a shockingly good soundstage for its age, and pinpoint imaging. Not a TON of 3D spatial variation, but it can handle complex layered tracks with the best of them, and you never lose sight of any of the instruments or elements.

But I have to talk about driving these, because you pretty much can't. These are BY FAR the hardest to drive headphones I've ever listened to. AKG K340? Cakewalk compared to these. I saw some reports online (1, 2) that showed these tested between 3.8 to 5.3 KILO ohms! Yeah, ten times greater than your typical high impedance dynamic!

I didn't believe it til I plugged them in. I think the presence of a 1/4" TRRS plug is kind of comical, because these things really need a speaker amp, and from what I read Pioneer did sell an adapter box to do just that. It nearly maxes out either of my headphone amps, neither of which are any slouch.

No sub bass to speak of. Technical limitation of the unique drivers. Online measurements also say there's nothing above ~8.5k either but I never found them lacking in the treble. Overall tonality is excellent, a bit on the bright side, but plenty of lower midrange oomph that they don't sound dry at all. I'd call it pretty true-to-life.

That speed though. Crazy detail and clarity!

I pulled these out this afternoon and have been listening to them off and on throughout the evening. These are MIND-BOGGLING for their age. Like...I'm baffled how piezoelectric headphones haven't been pursued any further than this.

Imagine listening to a pair of RAAL CA-1a, and then putting on a 50 year old headphone and being like "Yeah. This has comparable detail." This technology had SO much potential!

 

[takato14]

Like...I'm baffled how piezoelectric headphones haven't been pursued any further than this. This technology had SO much potential!

The problem is that piezoelectric drivers are inherently compromised on the electrical side of things.

This is the electrical impedance graph of an SE-500, measured using an Audio Precision APx555. You are reading that correctly -- 100kOhms at 20Hz... and 1 ohm at 20kHz.

Piezoelectric drivers are capacitors, which causes their impedance to rise exponentially as frequency decreases. Bass rolloff on piezoelectric drivers is entirely electrical, which means getting bass out of a piezo driver is nearly impossible -- but this is the lesser of two evils this driver technology introduces.

The far, FAR worse aspect of a headphone transducer that's a capacitor is the fact that capacitors have what's called a short point. Yeah. That driver's impedance doesn't simply stop decreasing at 20kHz, it continues going down until it is effectively an electrical short. For the SE-500, this is not a very big deal, because it has a short point of roughly 22kHz -- outside of the range of human hearing and outside of the range that most amplifiers will be producing a meaningful output at.

But the SE-700 on the other hand, has a thicker diaphragm than the SE-500, which increases it's capacitance... and lowers it's short point. The SE-700 shorts at 17kHz, which is well into the operating range of most listening equipment, due to being where a large amount of treble information from cymbals resides.

A 0 ohm load can be extremely dangerous for any amplifier and is likely to cause damage to both the headphones and the amplifier driving them, up to and including risk of fire or explosion. Pioneer knew of this, and stuffed a series resistor inside the headphone's cable termination to act as a buffer and prevent catastrophic current draw. Unfortunately, this lowers the already pitiful sensitivity of the transducer, and as anyone who has owned this headphone for a while is sorely aware -- the cable on these particular Pioneer headphones is very susceptible to developing problems. Most of the time the connection shorts out at the plug, which is then chopped off and replaced... exposing the next amplifier it's plugged into to it's dangerous electrical properties.



Despite all of these problems, I am still quite fond of my SE-500. I replaced the old and terrible cable with a dual-entry one I made using a monoprice guitar cable and nixxed the series resistor, and run it off of my B3000's 120 ohm IEC standard headphone jack. Because the load impedance is so high the damping factor is negligible, and it gets louder than I'm comfortable listening to it at given how old and fragile these drivers are.

I did a bunch of crazy modifications to the headband so I could fit over-ear pads onto it, and I was able to get bass extension to about 50Hz with only 5dB of rolloff. The driver is fully non-pistonic like an electrostat, so it can still sound quite anemic, but that's with a less-than-optimal set of pads that make it a sort of on-ear/over-ear hybrid thing that admittedly really does not fit very well. There's also some weirdness around the middle midrange that doesn't help, and probably comes from the odd shape of the membrane and the front acoustic lens... but the treble has literally no breakup modes due to the high driver mass and crazy transients afforded by their operating principle, leading to a very lifelike and clear sound despite the tonality issues.

I've had these for so long at this point that the left driver needs a bit of a smack every now and then to make it produce sound again, so if I do revisit it and try to make it perform and fit better I will be using a different unit altogether. If and when I get to that, I'll make an instructional post detailing the process, as it is incredibly involved and not for the faint of heart.

 

[Reputator]

The problem is that piezoelectric drivers are inherently compromised on the electrical side of things.



This is the electrical impedance graph of an SE-500, measured using an Audio Precision APx555. You are reading that correctly -- 100kOhms at 20Hz... and 1 ohm at 20kHz.

Piezoelectric drivers are capacitors, which causes their impedance to rise exponentially as frequency decreases. Bass rolloff on piezoelectric drivers is entirely electrical, which means getting bass out of a piezo driver is nearly impossible -- but this is the lesser of two evils this driver technology introduces.

The far, FAR worse aspect of a headphone transducer that's a capacitor is the fact that capacitors have what's called a short point. Yeah. That driver's impedance doesn't simply stop decreasing at 20kHz, it continues going down until it is effectively an electrical short. For the SE-500, this is not a very big deal, because it has a short point of roughly 22kHz -- outside of the range of human hearing and outside of the range that most amplifiers will be producing a meaningful output at.

But the SE-700 on the other hand, has a thicker diaphragm than the SE-500, which increases it's capacitance... and lowers it's short point. The SE-700 shorts at 17kHz, which is well into the operating range of most listening equipment, due to being where a large amount of treble information from cymbals resides.

A 0 ohm load can be extremely dangerous for any amplifier and is likely to cause damage to both the headphones and the amplifier driving them, up to and including risk of fire or explosion. Pioneer knew of this, and stuffed a series resistor inside the headphone's cable termination to act as a buffer and prevent catastrophic current draw. Unfortunately, this lowers the already pitiful sensitivity of the transducer, and as anyone who has owned this headphone for a while is sorely aware -- the cable on these particular Pioneer headphones is very susceptible to developing problems. Most of the time the connection shorts out at the plug, which is then chopped off and replaced... exposing the next amplifier it's plugged into to it's dangerous electrical properties.



Despite all of these problems, I am still quite fond of my SE-500. I replaced the old and terrible cable with a dual-entry one I made using a monoprice guitar cable and nixxed the series resistor, and run it off of my B3000's 120 ohm IEC standard headphone jack. Because the load impedance is so high the damping factor is negligible, and it gets louder than I'm comfortable listening to it at given how old and fragile these drivers are.



I did a bunch of crazy modifications to the headband so I could fit over-ear pads onto it, and I was able to get bass extension to about 50Hz with only 5dB of rolloff. The driver is fully non-pistonic like an electrostat, so it can still sound quite anemic, but that's with a less-than-optimal set of pads that make it a sort of on-ear/over-ear hybrid thing that admittedly really does not fit very well. There's also some weirdness around the middle midrange that doesn't help, and probably comes from the odd shape of the membrane and the front acoustic lens... but the treble has literally no breakup modes due to the high driver mass and crazy transients afforded by their operating principle, leading to a very lifelike and clear sound despite the tonality issues.

I've had these for so long at this point that the left driver needs a bit of a smack every now and then to make it produce sound again, so if I do revisit it and try to make it perform and fit better I will be using a different unit altogether. If and when I get to that, I'll make an instructional post detailing the process, as it is incredibly involved and not for the faint of heart.

Ho-leee crap... I was contemplating changing out the cable. I literally could have killed my amps. That's frankly terrifying.

 

[santsant]

the world first planar headphone, wharfedale id1, still perfectly functional despite the ages.

 

[MDR30]

This is a living legend of a product, kudos to the man who invented it (forgot his name). Gilbert Briggs and Wharfedale made several groundbreaking inventions, including the metal blade cone suspension.

 

[Bingturong]

the world first planar headphone, wharfedale id1, still perfectly functional despite the ages.

How does it sound? Especially in comparison to some modern planars?

 

[santsant]

How does it sound? Especially in comparison to some modern planars?

They sound really good tbh, very good soundstage and resolution, but yes they are roll off on frequency extreme just like other vintage planars do. If i were to rate it, it is on par with hifiman sundara but the musicality attribute is unique to the veteran.

 

[Bingturong]

They sound really good tbh, very good soundstage and resolution, but yes they are roll off on frequency extreme just like other vintage planars do. If i were to rate it, it is on par with hifiman sundara but the musicality attribute is unique to the veteran.

Oh huh! Actually really not bad at all

 

[santsant]

This is a living legend of a product, kudos to the man who invented it (forgot his name). Gilbert Briggs and Wharfedale made several groundbreaking inventions, including the metal blade cone suspension.

I am very lucky to get it at this condition. My friend also have this but the housing is in bad condition, mine also sound better in comparison maybe because of the different pads.

 

[santsant]

Oh huh! Actually really not bad at all

I used to own (and heard) lot of different vintage planars, and for me this is one of (if not the best) vintage planars, so it doesnt mean that all vintage planars will sound this good.

 

[myheadHz]

I used to own (and heard) lot of different vintage planars, and for me this is one of (if not the best) vintage planars, so it doesnt mean that all vintage planars will sound this good.

Agreed. My all time favourite vintage planar too (original and the best!). I have 4 pairs in various states (2 broken shells, one with a bad left driver, one complete) as they were my daily (8 hours and day, 5 days a week) for about 12 years up until fairly recently .

There might actually be two versions (denoted by the sticker on the top of the cup being black or silver). Black being slightly older version iirc. I think I did hear a subtle difference (black slightly more low end extension and silver sounded slightly more refined at the top end), however it could have been placebo/bias when I was testing side by side, and since these are old phones, could simply be due to age and differing lifes they went through previously. Unfortunately I have 3 silver, and single black so unable to categorically say. Looks like you have a black version?

P.S Also should add that these need a decent amount of power! Bass really gets refined and goes down quite low with a fair amount of body, but only with the right amps. Some of the more powerful headphone amps can get this, but otherwise might need to tap directly into speaker outputs (as it was designed to be used at the time). Aparently they were designed to sound like the famous uniquely sounding wharfedale speakers of the time, unsure if they achieved this (I don't have any vintage wharfdale speakers from the 70's), and tbh I still can't work out if the rather rudamentry build is by design or just luck that it achieves the sound that it does... either way they did something very right

 

[santsant]

Agreed. My all time favourite vintage planar too (original and the best!). I have 4 pairs in various states (2 broken shells, one with a bad left driver, one complete) as they were my daily (8 hours and day, 5 days a week) for about 12 years up until fairly recently .

There might actually be two versions (denoted by the sticker on the top of the cup being black or silver). Black being slightly older version iirc. I think I did hear a subtle difference (black slightly more low end extension and silver sounded slightly more refined at the top end), however it could have been placebo/bias when I was testing side by side, and since these are old phones, could simply be due to age and differing lifes they went through previously. Unfortunately I have 3 silver, and single black so unable to categorically say. Looks like you have a black version?

P.S Also should add that these need a decent amount of power! Bass really gets refined and goes down quite low with a fair amount of body, but only with the right amps. Some of the more powerful headphone amps can get this, but otherwise might need to tap directly into speaker outputs (as it was designed to be used at the time). Aparently they were designed to sound like the famous uniquely sounding wharfedale speakers of the time, unsure if they achieved this (I don't have any vintage wharfdale speakers from the 70's), and tbh I still can't work out if the rather rudamentry build is by design or just luck that it achieves the sound that it does... either way they did something very right

Yes, mine has the black sticker but as you said i am not sure it really attributed to the sound. I am using a modified gainclone Lm1875 to drive them (20 watt per channel) so i dont have trouble driving them, drives better than a high end modern cayin amp the last time i tested them. Anyway its not common that someone has 4 wharfies at the same time especially now that the prices already sky rocketed.

 

[myheadHz]

Yes, mine has the black sticker but as you said i am not sure it really attributed to the sound. I am using a modified gainclone Lm1875 to drive them (20 watt per channel) so i dont have trouble driving them, drives better than a high end modern cayin amp the last time i tested them. Anyway its not common that someone has 4 wharfies at the same time especially now that the prices already sky rocketed.

4 pairs, but only 1 of which can actually be used as a headphone.

First pair I got in 2009 (very cheap), last pair I got probably about 5 years ago and paid 60 quid for them. Checking sold listings on ebay uk, last pair went for 70 quid (21st Jan) so I wouldn't say it's skyrocketed, rather pricing seems to have been fairly consistent over the last number of years?

I have been meaning to rehouse the working drivers from two of the pairs since they work fine (years ago in the orthodynamic thread there's some some users who created woody versions etc which seems a fitting use for these, I think even OP wualta was a fan of this headphone), but have a family now so extra-curicular time has been limited last few years . One day...

Your pair looks to be in awesome condition! none of my pairs had the leather on the earpads intact, one pair was close but already deterioted and would leave horrible sticky residue on my ears so I removed it (luckily didn't seem to change the sound). They are all just the soft black fabric underlay (still original earpads with original foam though) and still very comfortable in a cricumaural way. Whats the plastic on the headband?

 

[santsant]

4 pairs, but only 1 of which can actually be used as a headphone.

First pair I got in 2009 (very cheap), last pair I got probably about 5 years ago and paid 60 quid for them. Checking sold listings on ebay uk, last pair went for 70 quid (21st Jan) so I wouldn't say it's skyrocketed, rather pricing seems to have been fairly consistent over the last number of years?

I have been meaning to rehouse the working drivers from two of the pairs since they work fine (years ago in the orthodynamic thread there's some some users who created woody versions etc which seems a fitting use for these, I think even OP wualta was a fan of this headphone), but have a family now so extra-curicular time has been limited last few years . One day...

Your pair looks to be in awesome condition! none of my pairs had the leather on the earpads intact, one pair was close but already deterioted and would leave horrible sticky residue on my ears so I removed it (luckily didn't seem to change the sound). They are all just the soft black fabric underlay (still original earpads with original foam though) and still very comfortable in a cricumaural way. Whats the plastic on the headband?

Fortunately i get my id1 for about us60 with the earpad included , because the seller which is my friend thoughts its broken or something because of low volume output, though he regret selling it after i plug them in a real headphone amp.
The earpad is actually a DCA Alpha pads that amazingly fit and has same size as the originals, sounds a lot better too.
The plastic is to cover the headband because its getting deterioted and sticky just like yours, havent got times to look for something aesthetically better because i am afraid it will change the fitting.
IMHO id1 is already looks good and balanced sounding, i dont think it need new housings, maybe i’d like to change the cables or do internal damping in the future because I believe the driver has a lot of potentials, but right now i am content with what it is.

 

[AsciiJC]

Saved these bad boys! Had to remove the foam cover and spend about 20 minutes removing foam since it was all over the place. Will possibly mod because its quite shouty, but I absolutely love how these sound already. Used aftermarket lambskins.