Orthodynamic Roundup

[ericj]

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Originally Posted by unbiased /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't consider 10 years very long and would expect a supposedly top end model like the AKG K701 to last much longer than that... like at least 50 years into the future so that our future generations can check them out.

Sure, you and i feel that way, but in 10 years most K701 owners will have left them to rot in a closet.

Like i said, they're cheap. Sometimes Harmin' Pro gives them away for free. They're easy to replace. You'll wear out the earpads much sooner.


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Granted, it may be better and sturdier (unbreakable?) plastic they use, but it just looks too delicate and thin where it clips onto the rods and slides. That's the part I see can easily crack if handled and treated rough or if you go to sleep on them and turn over and lean on them the wrong way. (Yes I sometimes go to sleep listening to my headphones! Don't y'all?)

If it's anything like the K401 construction, it's sturdier than it looks. If you're curious but don't want to open them up, go to AKG.com and click on 'pro audio', then select "service manuals" from the service pull-down menu - you can look at an exploded diagram.

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My HP-2 plastics all seem to be as good as new except for that cheapo thin flexible plastic on the adjustable band part. The design however is not so good as the pivot parts that attach the headband to the drivers part does make creaking sounds when you move your head or clench your teeth.

Yes, these are just a few of the sins of the Bellini frame.

Do not ever drop them! The plastic they used is the variety that cyclists commonly refer to as 'cheese'. The post that attaches the headband to the earcup will break, and there is, so far as we've been able to find, no way to fix it.

'course, since you have an HP-2, I'd gladly send you a gutted YH-2 frame if that ever happened. They are identical as far as i know. Or you could send them to me to be re-potted and potentially improved.

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The HP-2 ear cups are some kind of very soft plyable leather cushion. Mine did not deteriorate. Ear pads are kind of squashed in from about 15 years being neglected, squashed and contorted into odd positions in my junk box. But they seem fine.

I'm referring to the disc of foam rubber that serves as a spring to hold the driver against the baffle, inside the body of the headphone frame.

Different varieties of foam degrade at different rates. The foam rubber inside the HP/YH-1, YH-100, and possibly the HP/YH-3 and -50(a,s) series as well, seems to be immortal and is always found to be in good condition.

The foam rubber disc inside both of my pairs of YH-2 was in very sad shape indeed.

You know how in museums they have documents sealed in vacuum chambers because to touch them would cause them to crumble to dust? Like that.

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Hmmm, I don't know what you mean here by being the "Black Sheep..." but all I've mostly read were rave reviews after folks got used to their sound... I can say first hand these are nice sounding cans but I don't think they are the ultimate end all in any headphone search. I find them best with real classic Jazz, not rock not smooth fake jazz, real jazz with real instruments.

Most manufacturers of premium headphones have a 'house sound' - beyerdynamic headphones by and large sound like beyerdynamic headphones regardless of the model, grados sound like grados, sennheisers sound like sennheisers, and so on.

While they are by no means the same, the majority of premium AKG headphones have some common similarities in their sound signature.

The biggest fans of the AKG sound signature seem to be unhappy with the K701 - Fitz is the biggest fan AKG headphones have, and he hates the K701.

I've had K-141M from the 70's and from the 90's, K240-M from the 70's, K340 from the early 80's (probably), K300-M and K301 from the 90's, K240-DF from the 90's, and K401 from a few years ago.

They all have similar sound characteristics. Some are better than others, and the K240-DF sounds half-way between an AKG and a Beyerdynamic due to the diffuse field equalization, but you could blindfold me and put any one of them on my head, and I'd be able to identify them as AKG.

As i understand it, that does not hold true for the K701. So i have no frame of reference.

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HP-2 again strikes the best balance here from what I hear comparing them. The Senns have the most bass of these phones. The Bose On Ear Triport wipes all of these headphones when it comes to bass output. Holy smokes! But the Bose On Ear Triport has somewhat subdued highs whose intensity varies depending on how I set the on ear pads onto my ears.

How would you like better transient response and more bass from your HP-2? We might be able to help you out with that.

 

[JadeEast]

Well I dug out the ASL wave 8 mono blocks to give the AKG -340s some more juice running them with some resistors to lower the noise floor a bit but not enough right now. The Akgs do sound much better with more juice but so do the PRO-30s.

The 340s has the edge as far smoothness and sweetness but the pro30s can certainly hang with the the AKG. The Pro 30s seem a bit more raw sounding up top but have more kick than the 340s this certainly helps with some rockier tracks where the 340s sound "nice". but can be kind of too aggressive on others.

Needing resistors to step down the noise floor probably doesn't do any favors to the sound quality and the crap ones I'm using could be cause of some the pro30s harshness.

What's clear to me is that Orthos like power.

 

[Skylab]

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Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jay the ones I just built for Skylab completely slaughter my K340's. I know you don't like to hear that, and in a way neither do I, but it's true. IMHO they're the best sub $1000.00 headphone I've heard period. The YH-100 version quite simply trounce even my donuts. The bass is freakin' amazing, but it's not at the expense of glorious sparkling highs and lovely mids. It's the most amazing balance. I will be reworking mine into YH-100 donuts very soon, and then they'll be on their way up to you as promised. You can decide for yourself if they're all that. All I can say is start that YH-100 search now. Think of electrostatic detail, speed and air, but with incredible deep, tight and powerful bass. And in a nice woody package. Leather pads are a must though, but the Beyer ones work splendidly, and are now an available item.

All true IMO. The YH-100 based donuts are amazing.

But I am also a part of Team K340 Naysayer. I was really dissapointed by the K340. They were fine, but not nearly what I had hoped they would be.

 

[swt61]

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Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif All true IMO. The YH-100 based donuts are amazing. But I am also a part of Team K340 Naysayer. I was really dissapointed by the K340. They were fine, but not nearly what I had hoped they would be.

Sadly I fear mine will be gathering a lot of dust once I rework my Donuts with YH-100 drivers. I'm also not a one headphone person, and can't imagine selling my coveted favorites, but I think my other headphones will see drastically reduced head time. With the great balance of the Donuts they're kind of an all genre headphone.

 

[wualta]

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Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Pro 30s seem a bit more raw sounding up top...

Have you "dotted" your Pro 30s? I don't recall whether I asked you or not. You may have to adjust size of the standard 18mm office-supply dot to taste.

The reason I mention this is my experience of the K340's top end was entirely different from yours-- I found it surprisingly rough. But that's my K340, and we know they vary.

 

[philodox]

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Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jay the ones I just built for Skylab completely slaughter my K340's. I know you don't like to hear that, and in a way neither do I, but it's true. IMHO they're the best sub $1000.00 headphone I've heard period. The YH-100 version quite simply trounce even my donuts. The bass is freakin' amazing, but it's not at the expense of glorious sparkling highs and lovely mids. It's the most amazing balance. I will be reworking mine into YH-100 donuts very soon, and then they'll be on their way up to you as promised. You can decide for yourself if they're all that. All I can say is start that YH-100 search now. Think of electrostatic detail, speed and air, but with incredible deep, tight and powerful bass. And in a nice woody package. Leather pads are a must though, but the Beyer ones work splendidly, and are now an available item.

You are a very bad man...

 

[wualta]

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Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are a very bad man...

[Frank Morgan voice] No no, Dorothy, he's a very good man--- just a very bad wizard. Down, Toto. Go chase Raistlin.[/Frank Morgan]

Where is Raistlin these days? Stick up some photos somewhere.

Anyway, don't put the Pro 30 up against the K340 or anything else until you add the mod described on post #999 to the Pro 30 mods already mentioned.

.

 

[FooTemps]

Alright I need some help with trying to pull more bass out of my YH-100 drivers in the QP55x housings...

So what I'm trying to do is up the bass while lower the middle and treble ranges. This is so I can use my thickest pads. (they were intended for the QP55x in the first place)

After tweaking...
I still can't figure it out. I've tried...

1. Removing all tweaks: felt baffle, red foam
2. Only damping: stock felt baffle, red foam with 2 felt discs behind drivers
3. Only damping 2: stock felt baffle, red foam with felt disc behind drivers and then after all the foam
4. Baffle seal: blu-tak seal all the way around
5. Baffle seal and damping: same from damping 2 but with sealed baffle

What the heck else can I do? I'm thinking about cutting out the back of the QP55x and using a more open mesh for even less backwave reflections. Then maybe take it a step further and channel the backwave out ala donut style. But if I'm doing all that work, why not make a new enclosure?

and just to add...
The bass does extend nice and low and I can hear it but I don't get the original monster bass from the stock housings. What I'm looking for is the new sound of these housings plus a boost in the bass without eq.

 

[JadeEast]

Have you tried more power through a beefy amp?
The Orthos I have with the most bass are the Pro 30s' hooked up to 8 watt monoblocks they go from allot of bass to too much bass. The PMB-100 have response down low but not with as much authority but they have no pads what so ever just the driver in very close proximity to the ear. I'm not sure how to milk more bass from your enclosure in fact I'm not sure what one can get from the YH-100 never hearing them.

Three things that have helped with raising bass response in my experience are one more power, another is to reduce the amount of air the driver has to move and finally you can attempt to dampen the front of the driver.

You can try to cut a donut (sorry) of felt and put it on the front of the driver or a piece of acoustic foam in front of the driver. This should do a couple of things and depending on your execution it could be good it could be bad. It could reduce acoustically the amount of top end and in the case of the foam could provide a better coupling with the ear. This will effect the efficiency of the head phone and could dull down the sound too much for your taste.

 

[ericj]

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Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can try to cut a donut (sorry) of felt and put it on the front of the driver or a piece of acoustic foam in front of the driver.

The QP55x baffle already has a donut of felt on the front.

 

[wualta]

I'll see what I can come up with using the YH-1 drivers this weekend. Should be applicable to the YH-100 drivers.

 

[FooTemps]

wualta >> awesome, I'll be waiting to see the results.

Audiocats will give my gear a listen too and we can have a bit of a comparison between the stock yh-100 versus the transplant.

 

[wualta]

Rule of thumb: Bass inside a headphone is all about pressure, pounds per square inch, pascals, seals, compression... pressure. A bass wavelength is feet long, so we're not concerned about rippling waves here.

Okay, gotta get the design brief. Lemme see if I can get this straight:

You achieved good? great? bass using some of the usual tricks-- flatter pads (with an opening the size of the driver, preferably smaller?), sealed baffle, gasketed driver. But then--

You want to use the original 55x velour pads, and when you install those pads, the bass disappears, correct? This would make sense. Going from flat pleather pads to tall velour ones lets backwave in, increases the earcup volume and pushes the ear away from the diaphragm, all of which have been shown to decrease apparent bass and increase apparent treble. So we have our work cut out for us.

Have you covered the back grille (ie, the grille you can see on the back of each earpiece with the red foam peeking out) with felt on the inside? You could [possibly] use the red foam to hold the felt in place, but unless the felt is held firmly against the inner face of the cup, air might leak around it. The idea here is to "treat" any backwave that might escape out the back and try to re-enter around the front.

Have you tried doing the K501 Tape Mod on the velour earpads?

 

[scompton]

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Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Rule of thumb: Bass inside a headphone is all about pressure, pounds per square inch, pascals, seals, compression... pressure. A bass wavelength is feet long, so we're not concerned about rippling waves here. Okay, gotta get the design brief. Lemme see if I can get this straight: You achieved good? great? bass using some of the usual tricks-- flatter pads (with an opening the size of the driver, preferably smaller?), sealed baffle, gasketed driver. But then-- You want to use the original 55x velour pads, and when you install those pads, the bass disappears, correct? This would make sense. Going from flat pleather pads to tall velour ones lets backwave in, increases the earcup volume and pushes the ear away from the diaphragm, all of which have been shown to decrease apparent bass and increase apparent treble. So we have our work cut out for us.

I wonder how Beyer managed to get so much bass out of the DT880 03. They seem to violate all of these rules, yet are the bassiest headphones I own. At least I think they violate all of these rules. They're at work and I have a 4 day weekend so I can't check until Tuesday.

 

[wualta]

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Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder how Beyer managed to get so much bass out of the DT880 03. They seem to violate all of these rules, yet are the bassiest headphones I own. At least I think they violate all of these rules. They're at work and I have a 4 day weekend so I can't check until Tuesday.

They won't let you back in, eh? Probably afraid you'll get on the internet and download photos of naughty headphones behaving badly.

It's like the situation with the Fostex T50 vs something like the YH-1. You can tune the fundamental resonance of the diaphragm low enough so that in free air (which I'm assuming the DT880 is designed for) it's still bass heavy. Move it close to your ear and the bass is overwhelming. Pull it back and stand it off on tall porous earpads and the bass dissipates enough to bring everything back in balance. You need a big diaphragm (or a big baffle) with lots of excursion, and you still have to make sure you don't get too much backwave. Backwave will kill bass no matter how big and hairy you make the driver, because bass-backwave cancellation is the driver working against itself.

The canonic free-air "headphone" is of course the AKG K1000.

In other words, if you know where the diaphragm is going to be in relation to the ear, and whether its back will be merely damped or closed off, thus how much backwave you have to deal with, you can design a driver to suit. Our problem is that we're starting with an existing driver with limited excursion and we don't like some things about its stock enclosure, but we don't have the ability to custom design the foster headset that's going to enclose this driver from the ground up, so we have to change several things to make it all work, and there may be limitations we have to accept if we insist on a certain type of headset and earpads.

We can trade off transient response and soundstage for bass tuning. Whether the final result is satisfactory is entirely up to the tastes of the modder.

I should point out that I've never heard any of the DT880's variants but I already hate it because it's the headphone Beyer came up with that made them think they could discontinue the ET 1000 electrostatic and get away with it. I'm kidding about hating the 880, but had to take the opportunity to boo Beyer's draconian marketing.

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