[rhythmdevils]

Yeah!  Now we're talkin!  Flames!

 

[alphaman]

Quote:

No, the peaky treble does not change with burn in.  I believe in burn in, but it isn't going to fundamentally change the FR.  It's not a fix all. 

I think there's also the sometimes-discussed "psycho-acoustic" burn-in thing going on. In simple terms, the brain-mind system "gets used to it" ... and "compensates". And the listener only remembers the can's innate FR when s/he hears a different set of cans. 
 
Speaking of burn-in ... 
I almost never hear about burn-in from the manuf's side -- and that goes for most gear that users claim benefit from the phenomenon -- not just head-gear. E.g., no word about it on their corporate web site, datasheets, or other product lit. I wonder how much burn-in testing goes into the initial product development? AKGs change importantly and WAY for the better, IMO. But it's probably risky to market it that way, I 'spose.  It would be kind of tricky marketing to say ... "buy our 'phones, and wait 100+hrs before serious listening!" The skeptical consumer might think: "yeah, right! I'll get psycho burned in by then anyway!"... or, "does your warranty take that into account?"

 

[oddsratio]

Interesting; I really love the sound of the 1350, the only thing I wish for was a bigger soundstage. I have to adjust to its size every time I listen to it. It's in my at-home set right now, and I was hoping the 880s (250 ohm, I only have a pico amp) would be equivalent in resolution. I could take airy/harsh treble if the details come through as clearly. Any thoughts?

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Interesting; I really love the sound of the 1350, the only thing I wish for was a bigger soundstage. I have to adjust to its size every time I listen to it. It's in my at-home set right now, and I was hoping the 880s (250 ohm, I only have a pico amp) would be equivalent in resolution. I could take airy/harsh treble if the details come through as clearly. Any thoughts?

Going balanced takes care of the soundstage and imaging with the DT1350.  Just what I thought as well singled ended.  I am glad that I got the SR-71B for my DT1350 and HD25 so that I could learn what balanced really does.  One reason I do not apply balanced to my HD800 is soundstage is already very adequate and making is more  so (non coherent) would not be good IMO with those but with the smaller headphones I get a very good increase in soundstage bringing them up to almost full size sound, especially with the DT1350.
 

 

[Pudu]

If you want clear, tight detail and portability the 1350 does that better.

If you value bigger sound stage and comfort more, the 880 is the winner.

When I first listened to the 1350s, going back to the 880's made the bigger cans sound almost veiled. In fact it was that experience that made me decide to upgrade my full size cans from the 880s. But the two are pretty different animals, tough to compare - prioritize what you want from headphones and the decision will become easy.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

Speaking of burn-in ... 
I almost never hear about burn-in from the manuf's side -- and that goes for most gear that users claim benefit from the phenomenon -- not just head-gear. E.g., no word about it on their corporate web site, datasheets, or other product lit. I wonder how much burn-in testing goes into the initial product development? AKGs change importantly and WAY for the better, IMO. But it's probably risky to market it that way, I 'spose.  It would be kind of tricky marketing to say ... "buy our 'phones, and wait 100+hrs before serious listening!" The skeptical consumer might think: "yeah, right! I'll get psycho burned in by then anyway!"... or, "does your warranty take that into account?"

A few pro audio companies have documented effects of "burn-in", i.e. actually the effects of use over time, for speaker drivers. They would consider "burn-in" effects a bad thing - that once a product differs so much from how it was originally, it becomes "out of spec," or in other words, crappier, not better.
 
I am pretty sure that Audeze burns-in their LCD3s for a few days as part of their QC process. I wouldn't be surprised if other manufacturers also do this.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

A few pro audio companies have documented effects of "burn-in", i.e. actually the effects of use over time, for speaker drivers. They would consider "burn-in" effects a bad thing - that once a product differs so much from how it was originally, it becomes "out of spec," or in other words, crappier, not better.
 
I am pretty sure that Audeze burns-in their LCD3s for a few days as part of their QC process. I wouldn't be surprised if other manufacturers also do this.

IIRC that sort of burn in only does anything appreciable on woofers with a fair amount of excursion right?
 
I'd imagine that Audeze "burning-in" LCD-3 drivers is sort of like "burning in" in a new PC.  You're really just stress testing for defects.  OTHO, the LCD series probably has more excursion than any other headphone driver and 2.5mm p-p.  No one else specifies it but its bass response, power and SPL ratings seem to pretty much destroy everything else.

 

[purrin]

Woofers and compression drivers. Compression drivers can do funny things if they are over-driven or as they age.

 

[alphaman]

Quote:

A few pro audio companies have documented effects of "burn-in", i.e. actually the effects of use over time, for speaker drivers. They would consider "burn-in" effects a bad thing - that once a product differs so much from how it was originally, it becomes "out of spec," or in other words, crappier, not better.
 
I am pretty sure that Audeze burns-in their LCD3s for a few days as part of their QC process. I wouldn't be surprised if other manufacturers also do this.
 

"Pro" audio companies? E.g. Fostex, Audio-Technica, Crown, Marshall? Did you mean, perhaps, "high-end audiophile" companies instead?

I do have some "audiophile" gear that notes burn-in (aka break in or run in) in their respective Owner's Manuals. E.g. Paradigm speakers. 
 
On the issue of factory burn-in ... it seems logical to do so for certain gear know to benefit (e.g., dynamic transducers). But I'm not sure how much more $$ it is for the manuf. to hold/monitor a product, continuously, for dozens of hours? It can be noisy, so you need a dedicated (=$$) sound-proof facility. Etc.
 
Also, burn-in isn't (or shouldn't) be a static (set n' forget) dumbed-down activity. The Sheffield Labs Burn-in test tones (Vol. 2 CD) are ideal as they VARY the pink-noise output over time. Some don't realize that burning in can be stressful for NEW components (analogy: auto manuals say a new vehicle should not be at highway speed/long-run use for the first few K miles). For audio gear, like transducers, one should initially burn-in only at low-moderate volumes. And no more than a few hours at a time, before resting for a few, and then cycle again. This avoids heat and other new-material fatigue.
 
 If manufs are willing to go THIS distance ... they should market that fact using, say, a splashy package tag: "Broken n' ready to go!" LOL!!!!!!!!

 

[iPaintCode]

After ordering my Grado PS500s I decided I didn't want to always take them with me when I commute to the office or whatnot. I have a few other pairs that I have that I could travel with: m50s and AIAIAI's, but the m50s are a little to big and the AIAIAI's tend to fall off at times and really lack top end. I can't do IEM's, the seal (pressure) tends to cause my left ear pain from an old injury so a few days ago I decided to pick these up. I heard great reviews about them and they seemed to be very secure when wearing. I just got them in today and been listening to them all day and I'm VERY impressed. Defiantly a very fun headphone and very very capable of good sound quality. I've tried them amp'd on my Fostek HP-P1 and there was a difference but nothing I'd fret over if I was on the go and the Fostek had no juice (running straight from iPhone 4s).
 

 

[swarthy]

I think burn in as might have a slight effect but imo the DT 1350s still have to be EQ'd to sound their best. There is a peaky treble at extreme volumes. The 880s DEFinitely need to be EQ'd imho. Not my choice of headphone. I like the soundstage of the 880s but with the time I spent with them I thought they were too bright and would require too much on my part to get them to sound right. Also, I just wanted some new technology and a new pair of headphones. I like the Tesla stuff they have going at Beyer. The 1350s have a very high SPL level and that to me is a testament to their sound in some small but important aspects.
 
I don't mind using an EQ and if you are listening at moderate volumes the 1350s are quite nice. Comfort as I said can vary. If you want a tight seal and slightly bend the metal they will clamp to your face obviously and it can get a bit much I would assume for most people. I don't mind it because it produces much better bass but I also take frequent breaks. Getting in and out of these and finding perfect fit takes about 20 seconds. Not a whole lot to me.
 
The sound when amped with my Denon 2112ci is revelatory on a decent amount of music and average in some. Still beyond its 300$ price point imo and it does exceedingly well when it shines. The soundstage is basic for a pair of headphones. Could be larger....
 
and they can be a bit peaky. The bass to lower mid and mid is near perfect imo. As I said I roll off the highs a bit severely and work from there and many times isolate different ranges together to experiment with getting the right dynamic balance for high volumes without the peaks. I could use a 20 band EQ and be perfect. The 10 band is sufficient. I remind people that I EQ for all my phones these are nothing special.
 
I meet fewer and fewer people who like to really work out their headphones to max volume and potential. I think for me if these did not foot the bill like many of the sub 500$ IEMs I have tried I would have noticed. They are much more resolute and pure on any number of severely tough classical passages (and a lot of other stuff obviously) than my Ety's, which mainly lack the bass and soundstage, and triple fi's which were just awful without an EQ at high volumes.
 
So IDK I would NOT buy the 880s. You could wait for different Beyer products or choose one of the many competitors. For what it is worth I think these phones are quite nice and worth the money.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

"Pro" audio companies? E.g. Fostex, Audio-Technica, Crown, Marshall? Did you mean, perhaps, "high-end audiophile" companies instead?
 

No, I mean pro. Audiophile companies want to push burn-in theory because they know people acclimate to gear over time. I have never seen from my own FR measurements indicating burn-in effects - things usually get worse over time if anything. I've combed through some of Tyll's raw data on his experiments - they are inconclusive at this time. The most significant sonic changes I've seen with drivers is when the voice coils get hot over prolonged use. Once things cool down, it measures the same again.
 
That isn't to say that things don't change. Certain parameters of woofers change over time (presumably because the surround gets worked), but they eventually settle; and the changes typically are not enough to significant affect FR. Of course it then makes you wonder why people never say burn-in makes something sound worse, i.e. "After 80 hours the bass volume got weaker!" 
 

 

[Mr.Sneis]

The DT-1350 is a headphone that I bought, liked, started getting iffy on, sold, and re-bought.  Well today I put in a pre-order for the Amperior.  My instincts are telling me not to jump ship quite yet though, Tyll mentioned he actually like the Amperior more than the DT-1350.  Hope they ship soon, I would rather have one portable closed headphone than two in the stable.

 

[imackler]

I'll have access to a DT1350 next week! Cannot wait to hear it! But I'm so intrigued by the Amperior too. (Where did you preorder the Amperior from? How much for?) I was not a huge fan of the HD25, mostly because I was trying to wear it for too long. It was pretty aggressive though. (I realize now that closed on ear shouldn't really be expected to be that comfortable for hours.) I think for mostly classical the DT1350 should beat the Amperior, but I'm a suck for a good comparison review.
 
Quote:

The DT-1350 is a headphone that I bought, liked, started getting iffy on, sold, and re-bought.  Well today I put in a pre-order for the Amperior.  My instincts are telling me not to jump ship quite yet though, Tyll mentioned he actually like the Amperior more than the DT-1350.  Hope they ship soon, I would rather have one portable closed headphone than two in the stable.
 

 
Here is an interesting post from Jude:
 
"Originally Posted by jude 
 
In bringing up the HD 25-1 II and DT 1350, Eric_C brought up two of my favorites, and I also talked about those headphones in a video that you can see by clicking here.
 
Also consider the V-MODA M-80 and the Sennheiser Amperior (the latter if you're not in a big rush, as it may be a month or so before it's on shelves). Both were announced/released after I shot the video in the above link, and both are also outstanding. The M-80 has become immensely popular here, as it's generally as resolving as the others mentioned, but, to me, has the smoothest treble of the bunch. The V-80 has good isolation, but doesn't isolate as well as the other three (but it also doesn't clamp as hard).
 
To my ears, the Sennheiser Amperior is a sonic refinement of the HD 25-1 II, and is super easy to drive. Yes, you read that right, it sounds better than the HD 25-1 II (to me), but is even easier to drive.
 
To my ears, though, the best of all of these is still the DT 1350, but only when amped well. So, when I'm carrying one of my larger portable rigs (link 1, link 2), the DT 1350 is still the closed, portable over-ear I reach for first.
 
When I choose not to carry a portable amp (when I'm going direct from my iPhone or iPod), I go with either the Amperior or M-80. (And, yes, sometimes, just because it looks so cool (and sounds like an HD 25-1 II, because it is an HD 25-1 II), I'll grab my custom-painted HD 25-1 II Originals for use directly out of my iPhone, too.)
 
Good luck with whatever you choose--and please let us know what you choose."

 

[Mr.Sneis]

Quote:

I just bought the DT1350! Cannot wait to hear it! But I'm so intrigued by the Amperior too. (Where did you preorder the Amperior from? How much for?) I was not a huge fan of the HD25, mostly because I was trying to wear it for too long. It was pretty aggressive though. (I realize now that closed on ear shouldn't really be expected to be that comfortable for hours.) I think for mostly classical the DT1350 should beat the Amperior, but I'm a suck for a good comparison review.
 
 

I had heard the HD-25ii at a recent meetup and felt it may have been slightly more neutral, but it was through a Zune as a source.  I actually use the DT-1350 with desktop amps and feel it does very well for what it is.  There is ever so slightly more treble sparkle than I would like sometimes that I notice more unamped.  The biggest downsides evident here though are the possibility of driver mismatch and long-term discomfort.  I too wish we had more comparison reviews!