Just listened to some Fostex T50RPs today... WOW!

[eltocliousus]

I took the electrical tape off the vents just to see how it sounds, and by golly does it sound ass, the vocals and general mids/lows are just completely muddy.

 

[RexAeterna]

Sure... LFF is a case stuDy in tuning by ear alone.

he is very smart for doing that cause that's what we all should being doing is trusting our own ears. if we can't trust our own ears and rely too much on measuring gear and equipment we will never be able to enjoy the type of sound we like and always will be dissatisfied.

the measuring gear is just as flawed as our own hearing so use the tools we are most accustomed and use to having around the most. our ears. it will achieve much more fluid results that we enjoy overall.

 

[mrspeakers]

Quote:

he is very smart for doing that cause that's what we all should being doing is trusting our own ears. if we can't trust our own ears and rely too much on measuring gear and equipment we will never be able to enjoy the type of sound we like and always will be dissatisfied.
the measuring gear is just as flawed as our own hearing so use the tools we are most accustomed and use to having around the most. our ears. it will achieve much more fluid results that we enjoy overall.

I respectfully disagree, in part because there is so much potential in these little cans that it's easy to be sub-optimal because even sub-optimal they kick ass.  But when they are really well setup they are sublime.
 
Properly setup measuring gear has a very high correlation to what we hear, though it is not perfect because test setups tend to measure variables in isolation. How the integration of time domain, frequency domain, and distortion combine to create the user perception is not well understood, but certainly test gear can find problems most people could never isolate without a technical assist, such as a narrow band resonance or a sharp void.  I've seldom seen a change that improves test results that did not improve the sound quality on the phones I have modded (and the number is up to about 30 now).
 
While our ears should be the ultimate judge, remember that someone like LFF is a professional mixing engineer, and spends his day tweaking aspects of recordings to clean up the mix and achieve a better sound.  He can identify a problem with frequency response because he is immersed in the science and art of adjusting specific aspects of a mix to get a certain sound, and has a good idea of what is actually accurate, and which changes create what perceived change in sound.  
 
While I am an audio engineer and a (poor) musician, I can simply not do this as well as he does.  But as an engineer I can use technology to compensate, and maybe get an overall solution that is competitive (maybe better, who knows) because I can detect specifics in transient response and distortion that you could not really get a handle on by ear besides judging "fast and clean."  But how fast and how clean is VERY hard for most people to gauge.  Not to put him on a pedestal, but LFF probably could do this. 
 
Another area that complicates perception-based tuning is that our ears "break in" and start to process the sound of a given headphone as "normal" after a short while.  We've probably all experienced that phones sound better with familiarity.  Tyll has shown phones do break in, which is no surprise, as I know for sure speakers do.  But the user-adaptation makes it probable that many users will rather quickly begin overlook the errors in sound if the overall experience is still OK, and eventually think that a colored sound is accurate.
 
For example, I've had a few local T50 modders come by and test their mods.   Most felt their mods were great and liked the sound (only one felt that he'd missed the mark and wanted to figure out where the problems were).  When measured, it became clear that their mods had some major problems like huge bass suckouts, major resonances, no bass below 100Hz, very ragged frequency response, etc, and when fixed they preferred the result.  
 
This happened to me to when I first put mine on a bench to measure.  To my chagrin, I found that my "ear" for accuracy had declined a lot in the decade that I'd stopped doing speaker design work.  With test gear, I've now been able to retrain myself, and have a strong sense of what is accurate just be ear, but I'm still no LFF, and I've been putting a lot of time on this, as I'm looking to start a commercial venture.
 
So sorry for the long post on this, but I just wanted to share my POV that ears-only testing may produce a pleasing result, but it may be well short of a great result unless you have truly gifted ears or extensive training, and testing really can matter.  
 
If people want to chime in, it might be worth starting a thread on testing/hearing and tweaking as a separate thread, because this could derail the T50 thread...  Testing vs. hearing often gets a bit emotional, and there's no possibility of getting everyone to agree on a definitive approach, but in the end, I think that using your ears and equipment is the only way to get the optimal result for those who aren't LFF-level hearing acuity...

 
 
 

 

[Nevod]

Quote:

Interesting that you mention the earside foam mod. I have used this on all my mods since the first rastapants, so all measurements include this. However, I have found it is not a universal mod, and can creat some problems with some pads. I may publish some charts on this this week...

I recall your mods only use foam around the driver, not over the driver (except holes) and on inner side of earpads, that's what I call 'full'. Like I did in http://www.head-fi.org/t/452404/just-listened-to-some-fostex-t50rps-today-wow/7050#post_8234540
 

 

[mrspeakers]

No, never over the driver!  
 
I have made a couple of interesting discoveries about ear side foam this last week and have a very groovy 840 mod that sounds amazing-er. 
 
Listening to Beck's 24/96 Sea Change and I am just so into these cans.

 

[rhythmdevils]

I've never used measurements or even FR sweeps of any kind to mod or tune.  I just use music.  I had one of my T50rp schemes measured before it was finished because the opportunity presented itself and it measured better than I was expecting.  Which was nice, but it didn't change anything I mean if they sounded contrary to the measurements, I would ignore the measurements.  Hearing problems is the easy part for me.  The hard part is figuring out how to fix them with the limited materials available to someone who's not ordering huge quantities or able to special order materials.  It's really challenging.  There's all kinds of materials that would be great but are only available in bulk or I don't know how to source them.  If I had the materials I want, I'd be done a long time ago.  It would be really fun to do this for a company.
 
That's just my experience though.  I do think measurements are good as a validation and QC if it's a commerical venture or something that's going to be shared. 
 
I think the most useful thing is having a neutral reference on hand even if not for direct comparison, to remind you what is possible.  As in "wow, it is possible to have X without Y"  Which should be a good speaker since headphones are all really colored, especially the headphones you're likely going to have if you're modding T50rp's (mid-fi)

 

[nick n]

Quote:

No, never over the driver!  
 
I have made a couple of interesting discoveries about ear side foam this last week and have a very groovy 840 mod that sounds amazing-er. 
 
Listening to Beck's 24/96 Sea Change and I am just so into these cans.

earside foam as in around the driver area  in the earside cavity I assume ( had to mod this reply I wasn't reading properly )

 

[Nevod]

Quote:

No, never over the driver!  

Why not to try it then? If you have time, of course.

 

[proid]

Quote:

Why not to try it then? If you have time, of course.

I didn't see a possitive effect doing that. The sound can't pass through if you place paxmate in front of the driver?

 

[Nevod]

Quote:

I didn't see a possitive effect doing that. The sound can't pass through if you place paxmate in front of the driver?

I have stated that the actual sound-passing holes in the driver are not covered (except for the central square of the driver, but that has a bit different goal). The goal is to reduce any secondary reflections of the sound that is already reflected away by ears. Really tamed some peaks and dips in treble, made them less fatiguing and sound is probably a little bit more natural. The difference is tiny, I just don't have urge to scratch ear channel after treble-filled music that way.
 

 

[kalbee]

he is very smart for doing that cause that's what we all should being doing is trusting our own ears. if we can't trust our own ears and rely too much on measuring gear and equipment we will never be able to enjoy the type of sound we like and always will be dissatisfied.
the measuring gear is just as flawed as our own hearing so use the tools we are most accustomed and use to having around the most. our ears. it will achieve much more fluid results that we enjoy overall.

Modding sound based on personal preference would be perfect to create one's unique headphone. May or may not be universal, depending if you want a neutral sound or not. In the end, if it sounds good to the one destined to use them, then great! Being able to figure out each person's own weighted response graph would help a lot though IMO.

But on that same note, while LFF has made a perfect example of tuning by ears, let's not forget its also the way Dr. Dre created the beats line... Certainly not worth our praise, despite it's claims of tuned by ears and not by machine like competitors, and built to let people hear what they've been missing this whole time. Certainly, I didn't know what was utter muddy until I tried the solo. And that's enough hating on the brand from my part :x

But still I think it is right to say that the headphones that will make you most happy is what is specifically tuned for you. In that respect, tuning by ear helps a lot, and by equipment is a good guideline! Many subtle changes I can't hear and in fact would love to have someone measure for me to see if it ain't just placebo. Ignorance is bliss (for placebo), but knowing real change is quite appreciatable!

 

[Magick Man]

I tuned by ear because I wanted something that was most pleasing to me, and to me they're beautiful. If I want pure neutrality I'll hook the HE-6s up to my pitch-black SS beast. That isn't as fun, but it sure is revealing.

 

[mrspeakers]

Quote:

I tuned by ear because I wanted something that was most pleasing to me, and to me they're beautiful. If I want pure neutrality I'll hook the HE-6s up to my pitch-black SS beast. That isn't as fun, but it sure is revealing.

Nicely said!   
 
I'm probably being too "engineer-y" for my own good, or others. Testing obviously can't be thought of as a requirement, but it's a good practice when it's possible. 
 

 

[kalbee]

Though without 'better' gears as reference makes it hard sometimes... that's when I gotta turn back and tell myself ignorance is bliss lol.

 

[leeperry]

 
Quote:

let's not forget its also the way Dr. Dre created the beats line.

Dre makes his music go through a V shaped mastering in order to compensate for the crappy equipment it will be played on, and you can rest assured that he has had nothing to do w/ the beats whatsoever....he simply sold his name for megabucks, and he's gotten so greedy lately(prolly didn't ask enough in the first place?

) that Monster are dropping him FWIR.