[nc8000]

 
I'm not trying to be evasive, but it's clear that this is one of those topics that is on a slippery slope to nowhere.  I'm merely attempting to explain my perceptions and rationale so that any outside observers that are currently trying to understand their options, in terms of upgrading their JH monitors, can do so with an awareness of both sides of the argument.  My advice to anyone reading is: if you're considering an expensive cable upgrade, consider putting that money towards the JH3A instead. 
 
In terms of your specific questions, there is extensive literature available for any curious parties to read.   The conclusions reached are very clear, but like with homeopathy, astrology, and other such branches of pseudoscience, there will always be a significant demographic that are resistant to the application of scientific methodology in testing hypotheses.  Again, I respect the rights of posters to draw their own conclusions. 
 
 
 

 
 

Fair enough

 

[daveDerek]

Quote:

Just as you believe the opinions of those who haven't personally heard a high-end cable aren't worth as much as someone who has, I believe that anyone who claims to have heard an "improvement" with such a cable, but who hasn't subjected their belief to some form of objective test, shouldn't be taken too seriously.  In fact, I always attempt to take note of those who do subscribe to high end cables so that I can avoid taking their impressions seriously in the future.  That's just me, and YMMV.

Quote:

I'm not trying to be evasive, but it's clear that this is one of those topics that is on a slippery slope to nowhere.  I'm merely attempting to explain my perceptions and rationale so that any outside observers that are currently trying to understand their options, in terms of upgrading their JH monitors, can do so with an awareness of both sides of the argument.  My advice to anyone reading is: if you're considering an expensive cable upgrade, consider putting that money towards the JH3A instead. 
 
In terms of your specific questions, there is extensive literature available for any curious parties to read.   The conclusions reached are very clear, but like with homeopathy, astrology, and other such branches of pseudoscience, there will always be a significant demographic that are resistant to the application of scientific methodology in testing hypotheses.  Again, I respect the rights of posters to draw their own conclusions. 

roy, some folks here have spent time listening to real live music, playing music, listening to various audio devices and systems and have come to their opinions carefully and with thought and effort, some even having backgrounds in science. i was talking about my experience with certain systems that i've listened too. i've heard improvements which i wish didn't exist as it's cheaper not to go that route. other experienced listeners have come to similar conclusions. why come to a forum like this if not to try to share in others experience and perhaps thereby find ways to enrich and enliven your own personal listening experiences? many come here and opine without bothering to listen to either music or the gear in question. would you find their opinions more valuable? i realize that certain areas evoke controversy but i'd suggest not throwing out the baby with the bath water.
 
peter aczel, founder of the audio critic, moved from being a hard core subjectivist to a hard core audio objectivist, yet ultimately he has to sit down and listen to a system to enjoy it and if it doesn't float his boat, regardless of the technical arguments, why would he want to listen to that system? he will argue strongly not only against cables but against amplifiers as well. yet there are those on this forum who argue against cables but will spend a lot of time fussing with amplifiers. does this automatically disqualify their opinions and experiences?

whatever the technical arguments, i'd recommend listening to a system and seeing if it engages you. folks here have argued that an amp that give s a 'balanced' output by putting a single ended input through a phase splitter can't possibly sound better, though they've not heard the system in question. and yet you'll find experienced listeners who actually sit down and listen and find not insubstantial subjective improvements. whatever reason may produce these findings, folks do find them. spending more money doesn't always buy you sonic improvements. i've heard systems where far less expensive components in the chain sounded better than their counterparts costing multiples of the first device.
 
personally i like to listen to what i can to inform my audio perspectives, but i also look for folks who've put in their time and who i can calibrate my tastes and findings with as a way to derive useful advice from this forum, as well as other venues.
 
have you listened to any jha products? almost everyone one who has thinks highly of them. you certainly seem to be interested in them, presumably due, at least in part, to this wide spread high praise. my guess is that you'd be impressed with all of their units, and in particular with the jh3a. but since the latter unit is still unavailable, you could get their standard iems. if you did and tried them recabled and run balanced i think there's a pretty fair chance you'd hear differences and performance improvements, regardless of the cause. of course there's always the possibility that your findings would differ from that of most other users who've tried it, and i'm sure those findings would be of interest too.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

roy, some folks here have spent time listening to real live music, playing music, listening to various audio devices and systems and have come to their opinions carefully and with thought and effort, some even having backgrounds in science. i was talking about my experience with certain systems that i've listened too. i've heard improvements which i wish didn't exist as it's cheaper not to go that route. other experienced listeners have come to similar conclusions. why come to a forum like this if not to try to share in others experience and perhaps thereby find ways to enrich and enliven your own personal listening experiences? many come here and opine without bothering to listen to either music or the gear in question. would you find their opinions more valuable? i realize that certain areas evoke controversy but i'd suggest not throwing out the baby with the bath water.
 
peter aczel, founder of the audio critic, moved from being a hard core subjectivist to a hard core audio objectivist, yet ultimately he has to sit down and listen to a system to enjoy it and if it doesn't float his boat, regardless of the technical arguments, why would he want to listen to that system? he will argue strongly not only against cables but against amplifiers as well. yet there are those on this forum who argue against cables but will spend a lot of time fussing with amplifiers. does this automatically disqualify their opinions and experiences?

whatever the technical arguments, i'd recommend listening to a system and seeing if it engages you. folks here have argued that an amp that give s a 'balanced' output by putting a single ended input through a phase splitter can't possibly sound better, though they've not heard the system in question. and yet you'll find experienced listeners who actually sit down and listen and find not insubstantial subjective improvements. whatever reason may produce these findings, folks do find them. spending more money doesn't always buy you sonic improvements. i've heard systems where far less expensive components in the chain sounded better than their counterparts costing multiples of the first device.
 
personally i like to listen to what i can to inform my audio perspectives, but i also look for folks who've put in their time and who i can calibrate my tastes and findings with as a way to derive useful advice from this forum, as well as other venues.

As long as you don't try portray your opinions as being based in any kind of science, I have no problem with you making any claim you like about equipment.  I have no problem with someone who reads their horoscope to determine their life decisions; it's only if they try to rationalize those beliefs to others by suggesting they're in some way scientific that it becomes an issue. 
 
I feel an obligation for those who are new and haven't had time to develop a mature, sophisticated understanding of what they're reading to provide an alternative viewpoint to the opinions of those who share your methodology and beliefs. 
 

 

[daveDerek]

i'm not religious about any of this, and am scientifically oriented, though i think there are methodologic flaws with the 'science' of perception. i'm not sure what the specifics here are but there's a real difference in the 'science' versus the experience of myself and many others, which i'm not so quick to discount. i've made changes in systems that naive listeners picked up on who didn't know what was being changed and had no knowledge or expectations of differences or improvements to systems based on changes. fwiw, i have a background in biologic science, neuroscience, psychology and psychobiology, as well as basic and clinical research, so i don't scoff at scientific findings. and i think scepticism can be quite healthy.
i also grew up playing a musical instrument and listening to live music, was involved in concert production in college, and have spent countless hours listening to many types of music in many types of venues. as well as listening to a wide variety of musical production, i've also spent many years listening to music reproduction on a wide variety of systems both speaker and headphone based, and have listened to various changes in the audio reproduction chain, and their effects, or lack thereof on the end sound result.
 
that said, wrt to audio findings, it is subjective. and as i've emphasized before in this discussion i'd suggest you listen to an entire system before dismissing everyone's findings and suggesting to newcomers that those whose experiences or opinions differ from yours be disregarded, especially regarding systems which you've not heard! your recent posts have snidely suggested that myself and others who are serious and experienced listeners opinions are essentially worthless - a rather rude tack. i'd politely suggest, for the umpteenth time, that you're here to learn about products of interest and excellence and that those with experience may actually have useful input to the discussion. if not then why bother? heck, spend $15 on some koss cans, have fun and save yourself lots of time and money!

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

i'm not religious about any of this, and am scientifically oriented, though i think there are methodologic flaws with the 'science' of perception. i'm not sure what the specifics here are but there's a real difference in the 'science' versus the experience of myself and many others, which i'm not so quick to discount. i've made changes in systems that naive listeners picked up on who didn't know what was being changed and had no knowledge or expectations of differences or improvements to systems based on changes. fwiw, i have a background in biologic science, neuroscience, psychology and psychobiology, as well as basic and clinical research, so i don't scoff at scientific findings. and i think scepticism can be quite healthy.
 
that said, wrt to audio findings, it is subjective. and as i've emphasized before in this discussion i'd suggest you listen to an entire system before dismissing everyone's findings and suggesting to newcomers that those whose experiences or opinions differ from yours be disregarded, especially regarding systems which you've not heard! your recent posts have snidely suggested that myself and others who are serious and experienced listeners opinions are essentially worthless - a rather rude tack. i'd politely suggest, for the umpteenth time, that you're here to learn about products of interest and excellence and that those with experience may actually have useful input to the discussion. if not then why bother? heck, spend $15 on some koss cans, have fun and save yourself lots of time and money!

 
 
Again, as long as you don't make any false claims, we won't have any issue. 
 
At no point during this discussion have I said anything that I perceive could be construed as being rude.  I'd suggest going back and re-reading my posts if you perceive otherwise. 
 
By the way, I'd never suggest that there are no differences between various transducers, as you seemed to imply with your comment about just picking up some $15 Koss headphones.  It's a good indication of your level of awareness about the issues we're speaking on, though.   

 

[kiwirugby]

Quote:

Well, we could order them at that point then, no?

 I think you run the risk of the system being more expensive.   If you can summon up that last ounce of patience, you may well be rewarded.....soon....
 
 

 

[Hero Kid]

Anyone else finding this thread REALLY TEDIOUS? Sigh.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Anyone else finding this thread REALLY TEDIOUS? Sigh.

Yep.  I'm about as much of a hardcore empiricist as you'll find, but I usually draw the line at derailing threads that are about something else.  On the other hand there isn't really anything else to talk about anyway so I don't know if it counts as derailing...

 

[adktitan]

Quote:

 
 
Again, as long as you don't make any false claims, we won't have any issue. 
 
At no point during this discussion have I said anything that I perceive could be construed as being rude.  I'd suggest going back and re-reading my posts if you perceive otherwise. 
 
By the way, I'd never suggest that there are no differences between various transducers, as you seemed to imply with your comment about just picking up some $15 Koss headphones.  It's a good indication of your level of awareness about the issues we're speaking on, though.   

hey roy, I found it refreshing to read some of your thoughts here and I don't believe you were being rude; just bringing a fair look into a situation as you read it to be; much like I read it the same way. Good posts, IMO..
 
 

 

[daveDerek]

Quote:

roy, i've heard stock jhas, recabled and balanced jhas, and the demo jh3a and communicated my findings. i'm not sure you've heard these set ups. i'll reiterate that i find the jh3a the best of the bunch and many will find it's performance so great as to consider it a great bargain in the world of high end audio. cables are clearly an area of controversy but again, my experience is that running a jh13, which as shipped is a superb product (by almost universal accord, which is something rare in high end audio), with an aftermarket cable and a balanced amp steps up the overall performance to a significant degree. many who have actually tried it think it's well worth the money spent. some folks may disagree but if they haven't actually heard it their opinions shouldn't carry the same weight, imo. as always, ymmv!

Quote:

Just as you believe the opinions of those who haven't personally heard a high-end cable aren't worth as much as someone who has, I believe that anyone who claims to have heard an "improvement" with such a cable, but who hasn't subjected their belief to some form of objective test, shouldn't be taken too seriously.  In fact, I always attempt to take note of those who do subscribe to high end cables so that I can avoid taking their impressions seriously in the future.  That's just me, and YMMV.

Quote:

I feel an obligation for those who are new and haven't had time to develop a mature, sophisticated understanding of what they're reading to provide an alternative viewpoint to the opinions of those who share your methodology and beliefs.

 
Quote:

At no point during this discussion have I said anything that I perceive could be construed as being rude.  I'd suggest going back and re-reading my posts if you perceive otherwise. 
 
By the way, I'd never suggest that there are no differences between various transducers, as you seemed to imply with your comment about just picking up some $15 Koss headphones.  It's a good indication of your level of awareness about the issues we're speaking on, though.  

well i think my post above is pretty clear about my impressions of the various jh audio products and system variants and how they stack up. you then take that and claim that i said something other than what i said and impune my impressions. that's an ad hominem attack which, to put it mildly, is rude. and in your last post you again state that i say or imply something that i did not claim. that's dishonest.
 
roy, what positive contributions can you make here? what have you listened to, what is your degree of listening experience, and what regarding jha products, or audio in general, can you add to the discussion here? i've enjoyed some of your posts in the past but you're pretending to be the honest arbiter here, watching out for "those who are new and haven't had time to develop a mature, sophisticated understanding of what they're reading", while offering nothing in the way of discussing what you've heard (which doesn't seem to include the jha products being talked about) nor your background or basis for reaching the conclusions about what you've heard, all taking a decidedly dishonest tack. that's more than rude.
 
i've actually heard jh iems including the 3a. so yes, perhaps i have some impressions to share which is beyond what someone who has not heard them can say about their sonic characteristics.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

hey roy, I found it refreshing to read some of your thoughts here and I don't believe you were being rude; just bringing a fair look into a situation as you read it to be; much like I read it the same way. Good posts, IMO..
 
 

Thanks, it's appreciated.  I'm comfortable letting posters decide for themselves what to believe based on the discussion that has taken place.  There's no need to divert the thread further. 
 
 
 
 
daveDerek, I believe that my contribution was made clear by adktitan.

 

[Girls Generation]

I have no clue what the reason for/problem was the debate/e-fight that went on honestly. 
 
 
Let's hope the prices don't rise after the preorders are taken care of >_<

 

[AVU]

 
Quote:

you could get their standard iems. if you did and tried them recabled and run balanced i think there's a pretty fair chance you'd hear differences and performance improvements

I assumed this would be the case as well.  Certainly if you're spending hundreds of dollars for a balanced cable, and probably more than a grand on top of that getting a balanced source and amp, you'd expect there to be a serious improvement.  But then I read this review:
 
http://www.headfonia.com/ibasso-pb-2-first-impression/
 
"IMPRESSIONS WITH CUSTOM IEMS
 
With custom IEMs like the JH16Pro, the balanced drive gives an instant boost in soundstage size and bass quantity and you get a much bigger sound than you do when driving in single ended. However, I do think that while very impressive in short listening sessions, the balanced drive only increases the phase inaccuracy already inherent in the multi-driver IEM design. The balanced drive also didn’t improve things like articulation, detail extraction, imaging precision, or bass control out of the JH16, and again I will have to go with the Pico Slim or the RSA Shadow for my JH16."
 

 

[kiwirugby]

Lets try this....to highten the anticipation....
 
So, your JH-3A arrives, you carefully unbox, put aside your hoodie (no, don't throw it on the floor!), carefully read all instructions (yeah, right!), start the charging process and hook up.........
 
Source: (iPod Classic --> Solo--> JH-3A)
Cables:  (ALO LOD to USB; mini to USB - anyone know a good cable person for that?)
IEM: JH16s (recable?....oh, I should never have said that.....!!!!!!   Let's not go there....again!)
Music/Tunes: Mahler 6 (lossless)
 
Drink: Port Brewing Hop 15, 4 or 5....
 
Ready?

 

[Girls Generation]

I thought one was to use spdif - mini for the solo to 3a...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwirugby /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
Source: (iPod Classic --> Solo--> JH-3A)
Cables:  (ALO LOD to USB; mini to USB - anyone know a good cable person for that?)