How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
Oct 11, 2021 at 4:49 PM Post #2,686 of 2,696

bigshot

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In the very beginning, Russian animation was primarily used for propaganda. It was raw like a political cartoon. In the late 30s and early 40s, it was heavily influenced by the West, but within a few years, there was a movement to create more culturally relevant films. They did cartoons based on Russian folk tales and experimented with other techniques, like stop motion puppet films, paper cut outs and experimental animation. The animation industry was subsidized by the government, and the main studio there, Soyuzmultfilm is still in operation and over the years, it's produced over 1,500 animated films.

Here is an example, a puppet film starring the character Cheburashka... (switch on the subtitles)
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 12:17 PM Post #2,687 of 2,696

Maxx134

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This is simple voltage division. The voltage generated by the amp is divided across the output impedance of the amp, the impedance of the cable and the impedance of the headphone driver. Lets assume all the impedances are purely resistive (very much the case at 1 kHz) that the impedances at 1 kHz are:

Amp output: 2 Ω
Cable 1: 1 Ω
Cable 2: 4 Ω
Headphones: 32 Ω

Using cable 1 the headphone gets 100 * 32 / (2+1+32) % = 91 % of the amp voltage.
Using cable 2 the headphone gets 100 * 32 / (2+4+32) % = 84 % of the amp voltage.

The difference in sound pressure level is:

20 * log10 (38/35) = 0.7 dB.

This difference is not considered a difference, because it can (and should) be compensated by turning the volume up by 0.7 dB in case of cable 2.
This is a stagnant, static, "frozen-in-time" type of measurement.
Then simplifying it to "output level".

Musical signals will be way more complex with varying frequencies and voltages... So we would end up with varying, complex impedance changing in time, according to the music.

So the wire, while not having any "sound" of its own, would instead indirectly affect the other two items it links, with a varying impedance.
The speaker and amp load, would react, according to thier own design.

Does it matter if it is small? That is the question when your talking about changes which would affect a transducer or amplifier.
The ratio of how small, vanishes quickly in the IEM market.

I think most people that have provided feedback have made the assumption that if any difference is enough to be audible, it should be clearly shown through typical measurements
There are no typical measurements to capture live streaming voltages of multiple frequencies and levels of AC, which is what music is. It must be a more complicated measurement, than typical ohms law being discussed here.

This thread is living inside a bubble.
It's not just old school speaker amps anymore. We have sensitive equipment and areas taking prominence, especially the IEM & DAP market.

Title is too generalized, and loses ground with headphone cable market.

I have mentioned vaguely many times about the "outside world" in which we have multitudes of cable companies using various complex sciences to make thier cable designs..
There is a multitude of cable websites information which have not been touched here.
Look at the the insane amount of design effort in this pic:
satin_audio-athena-20.jpg
And thag is just one cable in one company...

The more you look, the deeper the rabbit hole becomes about the amount of things going on that are being tested and tried with, especially the IEM cable manufacturers.
It is there, that the complexity gets more involved.
They take into account everything.

Just a quick Google, and look at the issues of cable I find:
Screenshot_20211127-105218__01.jpg
Here we read that the electrical energy is outside the wire!!
What?🤔
Screenshot_20211127-105748__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" addresses both "skin" & "proximity" effect.. Proximity?!🤔

Screenshot_20211127-104731__01.jpg
Here we see efficiency gains exceeding 50% in low Khz range.. Thats the Audible range! 🤔

Screenshot_20211127-105537__01.jpg
Here we see that once we force electrons thru wire, we have to add in a created "electromagnetic force"!
So much for simple "ohms law"...😮

Screenshot_20211127-110553__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" will effect wire from 10khz, which is the "Trebles" range in Audio frequencies.
Also note other types wire affecting frequencies below 10khz...

Screenshot_20211127-105653__01.jpg
Finally, here we see that not only is Silver is the best conductor, but that it has more free electrons...
Wouldn't having more free electrons would alude to it being more easily affected by everything stated above?

These are the kinds of things I see outside this bubble of a thread, on a random google search. They are not connected, but together they show that there is much topic about the cables that's not discussed.

Maybe the general negative biased towards cable companies, (which I believe they did deserve), is no longer a good thing, because the effort and push they were claiming on cables, are now becoming more relevant because of the sensitivity of the IEM market.

The IEM market, is the ideal market to test the interaction of cables, and how they alter the IEM sonic performance, because IEMs are having the most complex impedances and most sensitivities.
Some are having 12 drivers or more.

IEMs have multiples of "Electrostatic", "Balanced Armature", and "dynamic" drivers, all combined and interacting in unison within the same IEM, creating probably the most complex headphones with regards to every type of impedance (RCL).

So my conclusion is, that we have actuall interaction of cables, which would normally be totally negligible on other gear, now becoming an issue with IEMs.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 12:34 PM Post #2,688 of 2,696

71 dB

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Having a cable that has too much inductance or/and capacity is called bad engineering. Yes, the electric power is transmitted "around" the wire.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 12:35 PM Post #2,689 of 2,696

PhonoPhi

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This is a stagnant, static, "frozen-in-time" type of measurement.
Then simplifying it to "output level".

Musical signals will be way more complex with varying frequencies and voltages... So we would end up with varying, complex impedance changing in time, according to the music.

So the wire, while not having any "sound" of its own, would instead indirectly affect the other two items it links, with a varying impedance.
The speaker and amp load, would react, according to thier own design.

Does it matter if it is small? That is the question when your talking about changes which would affect a transducer or amplifier.
The ratio of how small, vanishes quickly in the IEM market.


There are no typical measurements to capture live streaming voltages of multiple frequencies and levels of AC, which is what music is. It must be a more complicated measurement, than typical ohms law being discussed here.

This thread is living inside a bubble.
It's not just old school speaker amps anymore. We have sensitive equipment and areas taking prominence, especially the IEM & DAP market.

Title is too generalized, and loses ground with headphone cable market.

I have mentioned vaguely many times about the "outside world" in which we have multitudes of cable companies using various complex sciences to make thier cable designs..
There is a multitude of cable websites information which have not been touched here.
Look at the the insane amount of design effort in this pic:

And thag is just one cable in one company...

The more you look, the deeper the rabbit hole becomes about the amount of things going on that are being tested and tried with, especially the IEM cable manufacturers.
It is there, that the complexity gets more involved.
They take into account everything.

Just a quick Google, and look at the issues of cable I find:

Here we read that the electrical energy is outside the wire!!
What?🤔

Here we see that "Litz" addresses both "skin" & "proximity" effect.. Proximity?!🤔


Here we see efficiency gains exceeding 50% in low Khz range.. Thats the Audible range! 🤔


Here we see that once we force electrons thru wire, we have to add in a created "electromagnetic force"!
So much for simple "ohms law"...😮


Here we see that "Litz" will effect wire from 10khz, which is the "Trebles" range in Audio frequencies.
Also note other types wire affecting frequencies below 10khz...


Finally, here we see that not only is Silver is the best conductor, but that it has more free electrons...
Wouldn't having more free electrons would alude to it being more easily affected by everything stated above?

These are the kinds of things I see outside this bubble of a thread, on a random google search. They are not connected, but together they show that there is much topic about the cables that's not discussed.

Maybe the general negative biased towards cable companies, (which I believe they did deserve), is no longer a good thing, because the effort and push they were claiming on cables, are now becoming more relevant because of the sensitivity of the IEM market.

The IEM market, is the ideal market to test the interaction of cables, and how they alter the IEM sonic performance, because IEMs are having the most complex impedances and most sensitivities.
Some are having 12 drivers or more.

IEMs have multiples of "Electrostatic", "Balanced Armature", and "dynamic" drivers, all combined and interacting in unison within the same IEM, creating probably the most complex headphones with regards to every type of impedance (RCL).

So my conclusion is, that we have actuall interaction of cables, which would normally be totally negligible on other gear, now becoming an issue with IEMs.
I have two simple conclusions:

1. A lot of gibberish above. Of course - the modulations are described by AC (characteristic response times and frequencies). Capacitance and inductance of IEM cables are unsignificant to matter, so the IEM cable is just a resistive load. But then...

2. Instead of trying to convince people, neo-Darvinistically, those who can fall for such gibberish deserve paying "snake oil audiophile taxes". So go for that perfectly crafted Litz 1% Au graphene nanocomposite and the world will smile with/at you :)
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 12:48 PM Post #2,690 of 2,696

Maxx134

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I will say I have no where scratched the surface of the problems(meaning my lack willingness to research on the topic) , so I will instead point to the other guy (cable makers) and say, don't look at me (the messenger) go argue with him (cable company making millions) who probably has alot points to argue.
I am just shinning the light that hey, your opponent of debate is "over there"..

I guess a real cable company guy would be too afraid to come here😂
But they're out there and growing like minions now, I believe especially because of the problems in the IEM market.
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 1:24 PM Post #2,691 of 2,696

PhonoPhi

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I tried to ask several cables sellers and manufacturers at AE to explain me exactly in what audible characteristics and how exactly would be their ~$100 cables better/different from 0.2-0.3 Ohm ~$10-$20 ones (I was ready to buy, loved the colours and patterns, and was ready to settle for even semi- or quarter-credible arguments to chuckle later). I was not given anything more than "better sound", "bigger", "more transparent", and "many guys noted improvevent"...
Then there are some guys in Head-Fi making "tables of cable compatibilities with IEMs" with defensive aggressiveness of their gibberish, so I personally gave up.

Sources clearly matter so much more, and with good USB DACs at cable prices that are more than real (at least to my limited ears, and the science behind it is more or less understandable).
At the same time here, at SS, there are guys that are convinced that "all DACs" sound the same", which is perhaps true deeply conceptually :)

To each their own.
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 1:45 PM Post #2,692 of 2,696

redrol

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I can't tell the difference between a throw away 1 bux cable and a 600 dollar one. Thats because there are no differences in the human hearing frequency range.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 1:58 PM Post #2,693 of 2,696

castleofargh

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This is a stagnant, static, "frozen-in-time" type of measurement.
Then simplifying it to "output level".

Musical signals will be way more complex with varying frequencies and voltages... So we would end up with varying, complex impedance changing in time, according to the music.

So the wire, while not having any "sound" of its own, would instead indirectly affect the other two items it links, with a varying impedance.
The speaker and amp load, would react, according to thier own design.

Does it matter if it is small? That is the question when your talking about changes which would affect a transducer or amplifier.
The ratio of how small, vanishes quickly in the IEM market.


There are no typical measurements to capture live streaming voltages of multiple frequencies and levels of AC, which is what music is. It must be a more complicated measurement, than typical ohms law being discussed here.

This thread is living inside a bubble.
It's not just old school speaker amps anymore. We have sensitive equipment and areas taking prominence, especially the IEM & DAP market.

Title is too generalized, and loses ground with headphone cable market.

I have mentioned vaguely many times about the "outside world" in which we have multitudes of cable companies using various complex sciences to make thier cable designs..
There is a multitude of cable websites information which have not been touched here.
Look at the the insane amount of design effort in this pic:
satin_audio-athena-20.jpg
And thag is just one cable in one company...

The more you look, the deeper the rabbit hole becomes about the amount of things going on that are being tested and tried with, especially the IEM cable manufacturers.
It is there, that the complexity gets more involved.
They take into account everything.

Just a quick Google, and look at the issues of cable I find:
Screenshot_20211127-105218__01.jpg
Here we read that the electrical energy is outside the wire!!
What?🤔
Screenshot_20211127-105748__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" addresses both "skin" & "proximity" effect.. Proximity?!🤔

Screenshot_20211127-104731__01.jpg
Here we see efficiency gains exceeding 50% in low Khz range.. Thats the Audible range! 🤔

Screenshot_20211127-105537__01.jpg
Here we see that once we force electrons thru wire, we have to add in a created "electromagnetic force"!
So much for simple "ohms law"...😮

Screenshot_20211127-110553__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" will effect wire from 10khz, which is the "Trebles" range in Audio frequencies.
Also note other types wire affecting frequencies below 10khz...

Screenshot_20211127-105653__01.jpg
Finally, here we see that not only is Silver is the best conductor, but that it has more free electrons...
Wouldn't having more free electrons would alude to it being more easily affected by everything stated above?

These are the kinds of things I see outside this bubble of a thread, on a random google search. They are not connected, but together they show that there is much topic about the cables that's not discussed.

Maybe the general negative biased towards cable companies, (which I believe they did deserve), is no longer a good thing, because the effort and push they were claiming on cables, are now becoming more relevant because of the sensitivity of the IEM market.

The IEM market, is the ideal market to test the interaction of cables, and how they alter the IEM sonic performance, because IEMs are having the most complex impedances and most sensitivities.
Some are having 12 drivers or more.

IEMs have multiples of "Electrostatic", "Balanced Armature", and "dynamic" drivers, all combined and interacting in unison within the same IEM, creating probably the most complex headphones with regards to every type of impedance (RCL).

So my conclusion is, that we have actuall interaction of cables, which would normally be totally negligible on other gear, now becoming an issue with IEMs.
Litz cables are very good choices for some purposes, I'm certainly not trying to bash that type of wire arrangement. But I'm not sold on them being great for IEM cables. The one and only benefit of silver is to have slightly better conductivity than copper for the same diameter. Litz does the opposite. You'll need an IEM cable that's bigger than typical ones for the same impedance. Something all users really love!!! I can't stop reading raving IEMs reviews about how a fat stiff cable is life.
As for skin effect, what do you expect to gain at audible frequencies on a short cable? I'd bet on not a all lot.




Now if it's more about having free electrons and giving them the right to vote, I have nothing against that. I'm even up to declare them positive charges if it helps them fit in society. They're already ashamed of how slow they're moving, I think they don't need the extra stigma of being called negative all the time.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 3:35 PM Post #2,694 of 2,696

bfreedma

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This is a stagnant, static, "frozen-in-time" type of measurement.
Then simplifying it to "output level".

Musical signals will be way more complex with varying frequencies and voltages... So we would end up with varying, complex impedance changing in time, according to the music.

So the wire, while not having any "sound" of its own, would instead indirectly affect the other two items it links, with a varying impedance.
The speaker and amp load, would react, according to thier own design.

Does it matter if it is small? That is the question when your talking about changes which would affect a transducer or amplifier.
The ratio of how small, vanishes quickly in the IEM market.


There are no typical measurements to capture live streaming voltages of multiple frequencies and levels of AC, which is what music is. It must be a more complicated measurement, than typical ohms law being discussed here.

This thread is living inside a bubble.
It's not just old school speaker amps anymore. We have sensitive equipment and areas taking prominence, especially the IEM & DAP market.

Title is too generalized, and loses ground with headphone cable market.

I have mentioned vaguely many times about the "outside world" in which we have multitudes of cable companies using various complex sciences to make thier cable designs..
There is a multitude of cable websites information which have not been touched here.
Look at the the insane amount of design effort in this pic:
satin_audio-athena-20.jpg
And thag is just one cable in one company...

The more you look, the deeper the rabbit hole becomes about the amount of things going on that are being tested and tried with, especially the IEM cable manufacturers.
It is there, that the complexity gets more involved.
They take into account everything.

Just a quick Google, and look at the issues of cable I find:
Screenshot_20211127-105218__01.jpg
Here we read that the electrical energy is outside the wire!!
What?🤔
Screenshot_20211127-105748__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" addresses both "skin" & "proximity" effect.. Proximity?!🤔

Screenshot_20211127-104731__01.jpg
Here we see efficiency gains exceeding 50% in low Khz range.. Thats the Audible range! 🤔

Screenshot_20211127-105537__01.jpg
Here we see that once we force electrons thru wire, we have to add in a created "electromagnetic force"!
So much for simple "ohms law"...😮

Screenshot_20211127-110553__01__01.jpg
Here we see that "Litz" will effect wire from 10khz, which is the "Trebles" range in Audio frequencies.
Also note other types wire affecting frequencies below 10khz...

Screenshot_20211127-105653__01.jpg
Finally, here we see that not only is Silver is the best conductor, but that it has more free electrons...
Wouldn't having more free electrons would alude to it being more easily affected by everything stated above?

These are the kinds of things I see outside this bubble of a thread, on a random google search. They are not connected, but together they show that there is much topic about the cables that's not discussed.

Maybe the general negative biased towards cable companies, (which I believe they did deserve), is no longer a good thing, because the effort and push they were claiming on cables, are now becoming more relevant because of the sensitivity of the IEM market.

The IEM market, is the ideal market to test the interaction of cables, and how they alter the IEM sonic performance, because IEMs are having the most complex impedances and most sensitivities.
Some are having 12 drivers or more.

IEMs have multiples of "Electrostatic", "Balanced Armature", and "dynamic" drivers, all combined and interacting in unison within the same IEM, creating probably the most complex headphones with regards to every type of impedance (RCL).

So my conclusion is, that we have actuall interaction of cables, which would normally be totally negligible on other gear, now becoming an issue with IEMs.

Marketing materials being espoused as “scientific” supporting evidence, an appeal to authority where the authority has a profit motive, and a serving of word salad clearly demonstrating a lack of basic understanding of the topic at hand. Awesome………
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 3:48 PM Post #2,695 of 2,696

gregorio

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These are the kinds of things I see outside this bubble of a thread, on a random google search. They are not connected, but together they show that there is much topic about the cables that's not discussed.

There has been a massive amount of research into cables, for a very long time, because billions of dollars depended on them for the telcos as well as national security and that was by the 1920s! By the 1950s you can add trillions more for the world’s TV and radio broadcasters and of course trillions more with the computer era.

The audiophile cable business is absolutely tiny by comparison and works like many other areas of the audiophile market: Find a problem and then provide a solution to it. Typically, they either invent some completely nonsense/fictitious problem or they take a problem that’s actually real but isn’t applicable to audio signals. Skin effect for example is real but doesn’t affect audio frequencies.

Silver is another good example. Yes, it’s more conductive than copper, of course the audiophile cable companies won’t provide actual measurements though because the reality is that it doesn’t make any practical difference. A 6ft copper cable has roughly the same conductivity as an identical silver cable of 6ft 2ins. What’s there to gain for paying 10+ times more? Sure, when we’re transporting signals 1,000 feet or 5,000 miles through hostile environments there are cable design considerations but 20ft inside a nice cosy home, not so much!

G
 
Nov 28, 2021 at 3:01 AM Post #2,696 of 2,696

bigshot

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I think if someone claims that high end cables sound better, you can pretty much figure that they are apt to spout all kinds of foolishness.
 

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