[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
Move air differently?  They apply the same amounts of pressure onto the eardrum.  It's been measured and proven.  Your statement basically says that a BA can't move as much air (air pressure) as a dynamic.  Measuring them, we can show that a BA can move as much air as a dynamic as they can report the same decibels.  A decibel is 10 bels which is a logarithmic function of Pascals.  The pascal is a measure of pressure (in this case, air pressure). 

 
The principles of the drivers are different entirely. A dynamic driver displaces more air. If you have scientific proof that this is incorrect, please show me. However they really don't move the same amount of air, it is not possible, even looking at it from the perspective of size.

 

[Oof Oink]

amyone else here who has heard both 272/400 ? impressions ?

+1

Rin measured a slight mismatch in the treble with the RE-272. 

I see. Thank you. Ignorance is bliss then, I suppose. Or maybe I'm just less of a critical listener.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

The problem is that current single armature IEMs have a limited bass and/or treble output due to the limitations of the driver. The bass is simply not as loud and not as extended as what dynamics, or multi driver armatures are capable of, or, alternatively, when the bass is made to sound strong and extended, the treble suffers. Single driver armatures can't do both greatly extended and punchy bass, plus high quality, extended treble - only one or the other. Dynamics and multi armatures can do both, but multi armatures often suck because many have audible phase issues. Currently, dynamic drivers are capable of providing the highest sound quality in IEMs if executed correctly IMO. Maybe the new phase correction electronics by Jerry Harvey can help multi armatures lose the audible phase issues too.

 
Perhaps Pianist would change his mind if he heard the FAD FI-BA-SB (aka Heaven-S) and/or FI-BA-SS.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

 
The principles of the drivers are different entirely. A dynamic driver displaces more air. If you have scientific proof that this is incorrect, please show me. However they really don't move the same amount of air, it is not possible, even looking at it from the perspective of size.

 
Air displacement is measured by pressure...  dB is simply air pressure.  If you displace the same air pressure, you move the same amount of air...  Regardless of how the work internally, they are capable of displacing the same amount of air pressure. 

 

[Oof Oink]

The problem is that current single armature IEMs have a limited bass and/or treble output due to the limitations of the driver. The bass is simply not as loud and not as extended as what dynamics, or multi driver armatures are capable of, or, alternatively, when the bass is made to sound strong and extended, the treble suffers. Single driver armatures can't do both greatly extended and punchy bass, plus high quality, extended treble - only one or the other.

I never understood statement such as this. Unless you've heard EVERY single armature IEM in the market, such a generalization holds little to no merit. Why even bother making such a remark? Just wondering...

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

this is quite a BIG statement and  i will take it with a grain of salt as i remember you saying black on some occasions , then changing to white moments(or posts)later regarding your thoughts on various iems

 
Also, even though my personal preference can change over time, the objective evidence will always remain the same and objectively, at least according to Rin Choi's measurements, RE400 has lower distortion, better channel matching than RE272. The two are also quite similar in impulse response, decay and frequency response, other than RE400 having a little more bass. So objectively, I don't see how RE272 may be better overall either. Subjectively, I like RE400 more likely because the increased bass and lower midrange quantity makes the sound warmer, more seductive and musical to my ears. I honestly never found RE272 to be exceptional technically - from the beginning I found their sound somewhat lacking in definition and the timbre wasn't entirely natural to my ears. I feel that RE400 seems to have a more natural timbre than the previous Hifiman IEMs had while offering at least similar overall technical ability to RE262 and 272.
 
Quote:

I never understood statement such as this. Unless you've heard EVERY single armature IEM in the market, such a generalization holds little to no merit. Why even bother making such a remark? Just wondering...

 
Why do you think multi-driver armatures were made? I am pretty sure that it is a fairly well known fact that current single balance armature drivers need serious tweaking to squeeze respectable frequency extremes out of them, while also maintaining good performance in the middle. If there are now single armature drivers with a wider bandwidth out there that can easily cover the entire audible range well, I would love to know that. I haven't heard of such drivers yet though.
 
Quote:

 
Perhaps Pianist would change his mind if he heard the FAD FI-BA-SB (aka Heaven-S) and/or FI-BA-SS.

 
Are those the moving armatures? I had Ortofon e-Q5 and e-Q7 and heard Grado GR8, and they all had some issues covering the spectrum properly IMO. e-Q7 and GR8 had problems with the treble with the former lacking refinement and some extension and the latter seriousily lacking extension and some refinement as well. e-Q5 had decent treble extension and good refinement, but had a comparatively lower resolution to the aforementioned two MAs IMO.
 
Edit: Apparently, the heaven-ss is a regular BA, albeit vented or something. Here are some measurements for it. Apparently, the objective performance is lagging behind that of Etymotic IEMs and distortion levels are quite high. Objectively, nothing special and terribly overpriced. Sorry.

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
Air displacement is measured by pressure...  dB is simply air pressure.  If you displace the same air pressure, you move the same amount of air...  Regardless of how the work internally, they are capable of displacing the same amount of air pressure. 

 
Again, you've told me that this has been measured but doing a cursory google search I was not able to find it. Instead when reading material on BA vs dynamic, all say that dynamic displace more air. If there are scientific studies of a BA displacing as much or more air than a dynamic, I'd love to see them. 
 
As an aside. If you do have this material please PM it to me. This is not the Sound Science forum, so it is not exactly relevant to this thread. We can take this discussion to Sound Sciences or to PM.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

 
Again, you've told me that this has been measured but doing a cursory google search I was not able to find it. Instead when reading material on BA vs dynamic, all say that dynamic displace more air. If there are scientific studies of a BA displacing as much or more air than a dynamic, I'd love to see them. 
 
As an aside. If you do have this material please PM it to me. This is not the Sound Science forum, so it is not exactly relevant to this thread. We can take this discussion to Sound Sciences or to PM.

 
Find 2 IEMs frequency response charts...  If they have the same dB output, they displace the same amount of air...  It's simple as that.  That said, find an SPL chart of a dynamic that has big bass and a BA with big bass and the dB differences should be within 10%. 
 
For example, compare the Shure SE215 (dynamic) vs the Phonak PFE232 (dual BA) on InnerFidelity. They both have an approximated 8-9 dB bump in the bass from the lowest peak... This is the best example I can come up with.  It's hard to find two IEMs, dynamic and BA, that share a similar signature to show you.  The reason is that BAs tend to be tuned one way while dynamics are another.  I obviously could cheat and show you the PFE232 with something like the Atomic Floyd PowerJax graphs I did myself, but it's not a fair comparison due to signature differences. 
 
I still stand by my statement that a BA can be tuned to output similar bass as any Dynamic. 

 

[FarCry]

Quote:

Mismatch? I've owned the RE-272 for over a year now. Never noticed a mismatch.

You may very well prefer the RE-400, but that doesn't make the RE-272 any less proficient. It's still, to date, one of the least colored, most accurate sounding in-ears I've experienced.

 
 
 
yeap this is what i am wondering. If this mismatch is actually perceived. The FR signature is definitely pronounced. But the mismatch in the treble not sure to be honest.
 
 
Also rin doesnt mention the db mismatch so i dont know by the word slightly what does this translates to. I have to ask him

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

 
yeap this is what i am wondering. If this mismatch is actually perceived. The FR signature is definitely pronounced. But the mismatch in the treble not sure to be honest.
 
Also rin doesnt mention the db mismatch so i dont know by the word slightly what does this translates to. I have to ask him

 
Honestly, I didn't hear any mismatch with RE272 either. Their treble sounded great to me. Maybe it was just Rin's particular pair that had issues. Overall, I do think that RE400 is at least very close to RE272 technically, while RE400 sounds warmer, more natural to me, so I prefer the latter.

 

[tinyman392]

The mismatch amount will vary depending on tolerance of the manufacturer...  It will vary with each IEM as well.  Some companies actively try to match drivers while others don't.  The 272's mismatch isn't the largest.

 

[FarCry]

Quote:

The mismatch amount will vary depending on tolerance of the manufacturer...  It will vary with each IEM as well.  Some companies actively try to match drivers while others don't.  The 272's mismatch isn't the largest.

 
 
 
i second that. read all about channel mismatches on the R-50s

 
its like random!

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

The mismatch amount will vary depending on tolerance of the manufacturer...  It will vary with each IEM as well.  Some companies actively try to match drivers while others don't.  The 272's mismatch isn't the largest.

 
True and I hate that.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

Are those the moving armatures? I had Ortofon e-Q5 and e-Q7 and heard Grado GR8, and they all had some issues covering the spectrum properly IMO. e-Q7 and GR8 had problems with the treble with the former lacking refinement and some extension and the latter seriousily lacking extension and some refinement as well. e-Q5 had decent treble extension and good refinement, but had a comparatively lower resolution to the aforementioned two MAs IMO.
 
Edit: Apparently, the heaven-ss is a regular BA, albeit vented or something. Here are some measurements for it. Apparently, the objective performance is lagging behind that of Etymotic IEMs and distortion levels are quite high. Objectively, nothing special and terribly overpriced. Sorry.

Here's the Inner Fidelity frequency response graph for the FI-BA-SB (aka Heaven-S) which looks quite different to the one you linked to, and is pretty much how I hear this particular IEM.
 


That said, a graph only tells part of the story, not everything — and as for objectivity, there's obviously different aspects you're not familiar with when measuring headphones and earphones. As for distortion and other measurable aspects, most people's hearing will not be able to tell the differences between the distortion of one IEM/headphone and another. Same goes for some aspects relating to the actual frequencies shown on graphs and the so-called extension you mentioned earlier. The graph above, btw, shows a very respectable extension at both ends.

If graphs were as objective as you make them out to be, Rin & InnerFidelity's graphs would be identical (they are, in this instance, quite different).

Like I said in a different thread a few days ago, "There is a reason why not everyone likes the ER-4S/P as much as other phones—even when some may own a pair, still enjoy it and perhaps even have a reasonable amount of respect for Etymotic—and it is not only because people don't manage to get a good fit or seal or because today's people's music tastes are all about "da bass."

Speculating about phones you haven't heard and making such sweeping generalisations—as you often do—is a disservice to Head-fi in general, and those following this thread in particular. If perhaps you simply said, "This is my opinion from all the phones I've personally heard", that'd be quite a different story. Then, of course, there's the fact that you've changed your tune/views drastically many, many, many times.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

Here's the Inner Fidelity frequency response graph for the FI-BA-SB (aka Heaven-S) which looks quite different to the one you linked to, and is pretty much how I hear this particular IEM.
 


That said, a graph only tells part of the story, not everything — and as for objectivity, there's obviously different aspects you're not familiar with when measuring headphones and earphones. As for distortion and other measurable aspects, most people's hearing will not be able to tell the differences between the distortion of one IEM/headphone and another. Same goes for some aspects relating to the actual frequencies shown on graphs and the so-called extension you mentioned earlier. The graph above, btw, shows a very respectable extension at both ends.

If graphs were as objective as you make them out to be, Rin & InnerFidelity's graphs would be identical (they are, in this instance, quite different).

Like I said in a different thread a few days ago, "There is a reason why not everyone likes the ER-4S/P as much as other phones—even when some may own a pair, still enjoy it and perhaps even have a reasonable amount of respect for Etymotic—and it is not only because people don't manage to get a good fit or seal or because today's people's music tastes are all about "da bass."

Speculating about phones you haven't heard and making such sweeping generalisations—as you often do—is a disservice to Head-fi in general, and those following this thread in particular. If perhaps you simply said, "This is my opinion from all the phones I've personally heard", that'd be quite a different story. Then, of course, there's the fact that you've changed your tune/views drastically many, many, many times.

 
It's actually the same graph FYI   They're scaled differently.  The measurements are near identical if you look at relative extrema of the graphs (EG, 10 dB peak @ 3k with peaks after, etc). The different scaling makes the responses look extremely different (because they aren't scaled the same.  Rin's head is actually pretty accurate.