[Fearless1]

How about the DAC?

Benchmark 2

 

[diamondears]

Benchmark 2

So the Fosgate Sig doesn't color the Benchmark2 at all? Does the sound differ from the O2?

 

[diamondears]

Good choice with the Ember, I borrowed one from a friend and liked it a ton.

How does it compare to the O2?

 

[Fearless1]

How does it compare to the O2?

I'm not even going there, it will start an argument with the O2 association
 
My point was that not all tube amps are "colored"  that is all.

 

[diamondears]

I'm not even going there, it will start an argument with the O2 association

My point was that not all tube amps are "colored"  that is all.

Interesting. Because I thought all along all tube amps color the sound one way or the other, some more or some less.

So why use tubes at all? I mean, what's the point of using tubes then?

 

[Shazb0t]

Interesting. Because I thought all along all tube amps color the sound one way or the other, some more or some less.

So why use tubes at all? I mean, what's the point of using tubes then?

Some people like the coloration.

 

[lynx121]

Interesting. Because I thought all along all tube amps color the sound one way or the other, some more or some less.

 
Some vacuum tubes can make a tube amp as transparent as a solid state amp.
 

So why use tubes at all? I mean, what's the point of using tubes then?

 
Some want warmth, some want brightness, some want transparency, and some just want to stare at glowing tubes. If you're the type of person that listens to a wide genre of music, you'll want a tube amp because it lets you tube roll and change the coloration of your music depending on your preference. Plus it glows!!!

 

[KewlMunky]

With how recessed the mids are in the HE-400, I wonder how much a tube amp with warm tubes could improve the sound.

 

[diamondears]

Some vacuum tubes can make a tube amp as transparent as a solid state amp.


Some want warmth, some want brightness, some want transparency, and some just want to stare at glowing tubes. If you're the type of person that listens to a wide genre of music, you'll want a tube amp because it lets you tube roll and change the coloration of your music depending on your preference. Plus it glows!!!

Rofl

 

[TMRaven]

Why you find it so?

 
Because there's so many blanket statements being thrown around about the O2 and amping in general, and there's a couple wrong ways about looking at things.
 
First off, the O2 is a good little amp for its money, and when it was released as an open-sourced schematic, it had a clever campaign behind it through the use of measurements to brainwash people into thinking it's the end-all-be-all in this so called unicorn called transparency.  Just like other amplifiers that measure with amazing numbers that are all well below the audible threshold, the O2 has its own sound.  It's still a relatively neutral amp, but slightly on the thin and bright side, and there are other amps out there-- both solid state and tube alike-- that all vary from warmer to brighter in signature.  Just because the opamps within the O2 allow its distortion numbers to be a theoretical .00001 compared to another company's .0001, or just because its noise floor is a theoretical 130db as opposed to another company's 120db doesn't make it the more transparent amp, and you surely won't be able to attribute sonic differences to those numbers alone.  
 
There's two unavoidable facts at play.  One, is that every thing about the amp design plays a role in its sound to very subtle degrees, such as the circuitry and its layout, the topology choice, the choice of power, etc; the O2 is no exception in this case.  Jason from Schiit Audio has a very good post about this subject on another forum where he goes into detail about the thought-process behind the design of their Statement amp, the Ragnarok, but I can't be troubled to find it right now. Second, is that the conventional measurements for which you see on headphones is limited and often times can not tell a whole story.  The same is true for amplifiers.  Giving distortion numbers for 3 different tones set at say: 100hz, 1khz and 10khz is miles simpler and easier of a signal than given a complex song with tons of different tones being played at the same time.  The science behind measuring isn't quite there yet, and thus measurements should only be taken as a guideline to tell if something is completely wrong, and only that.  We shouldn't be chasing for extra 0s after a decimal point and blindly thinking that leads to good audio. 
 
As far as some ideas that are the completely wrong ways of looking at things, I'll tell you this.  Tube amps don't necessarily have to be colored, there's no universal rule about that, they come in all different kinds of sounds, just like solid state amps.  Just because they measure at .01 distortion compared to .001 distortion doesn't make them colored and flawed.  Many people prefer tube amps for their clean sound and detail over lots of other solid state amps, not because of their color (don't get me wrong though, plenty like warmer or brighter amps in general too.)  Perhaps the worst offender though, is the assumption about using amps to somehow 'improve' a sound.  That's the wrong way to go about high-fideility thinking in general.  Audio is only one thing:  you have an ideal reference-- for this example let's refer to it as a 1, which will always be a whole, every part of your chain down to your headphone will always negatively impact that reference, making it less than ideal.  Better designed gear will mitigate that negative impact so it's closer and closer to the 1, perhaps say .95 as opposed to a .92.  You will never be able to get over a 1.
 
 
I'm a practical guy, and I did have the O2 at one point.  I would have kept it if I thought it would be the best solution for me, but I've since moved on from it, and to get back onto the topic of the HE-400 I can tell you right now that O2 (and likewise its ODAC) is slightly thin throughout the midrange, which doesn't play into the HE-400's weaknesses too well, but it's still a decent amp for its price.  At the same time, the HE-400 doesn't even really need super-good equipment in the first place, because it has a low ceiling of scalability.  It has distortion problems within the midrange, and a colored enough sound throughout the treble, meaning upstream gear won't impact it as much as they could, because it will always be imbuing its predominant sound over everything else.  It isn't as much of a 'chameleon' as other headphones, like the Sennheiser HD600 or HD800.
 
So in short, would I recommend the O2 for the HE-400?  Yes, I think it's a good amp.  Would I recommend anybody explore further up the line in amps?  Definitely-- just maybe not for the HE-400.
 
Lastly, this is a thread for the HE-400.  It's cool to recommend and talk about how amps play with it, but it's not fun to see parroting and sheeping over amping philosophies that come off as shallow blanket statements.  Talk like that can be reserved for the sound science sub-forum.

 

[manbear]

I think its funny that some people take a bright/thin sound as "transparent"...

 

[MrMateoHead]

+1.

Re DACs that you heard sound the same, they with same filters? When I was really researching for a DAC, I was really astonished that some DAC's sound the same even if they have massive price differences. I found out later that they have exactly the same default digital filter that I listened to---linear or standard filters.

What do you mean by filters? Straight up I have no idea if the ones I use have standard or linear.

 

[MrMateoHead]

  Because there's so many blanket statements being thrown around about the O2 and amping in general, and there's a couple wrong ways about looking at things.
 
First off, the O2 is a good little amp for its money, and when it was released as an open-sourced schematic, it had a clever campaign behind it through the use of measurements to brainwash people into thinking it's the end-all-be-all in this so called unicorn called transparency. 
 
I'm a practical guy, and I did have the O2 at one point.  I would have kept it if I thought it would be the best solution for me, but I've since moved on from it . . . At the same time, the HE-400 doesn't even really need super-good equipment in the first place, because it has a low ceiling of scalability.  It has distortion problems within the midrange . . . It isn't as much of a 'chameleon' as other headphones, like the Sennheiser HD600 or HD800.
 
So in short, would I recommend the O2 for the HE-400?  Yes, I think it's a good amp.  Would I recommend anybody explore further up the line in amps?  Definitely-- just maybe not for the HE-400.
 
Lastly, this is a thread for the HE-400.  It's cool to recommend and talk about how amps play with it, but it's not fun to see parroting and sheeping over amping philosophies that come off as shallow blanket statements.  Talk like that can be reserved for the sound science sub-forum.

I can't help but feel these statements were directed at me, who nevertheless was just trying to help someone else. I am only quoting the portions of your long post that are nevertheless the critical ones:
 
1) The idea that the O2 was a grand scheme brainwashing campaign is interesting - maybe you are right. On the other hand, it helped secure my purchase because "transparency" (as in, actually providing REAL information about a product) is itself revolutionary in the world of audio, in which manufacturers generally just don't tell consumers diddly about the real performance of their products. If you think they do, well . . .
 
2) The "distortion" in the HE-400's midrange is a real thing - IF you are talking about Innerfidelity's measurements and IF you are listening at 90-100 dB(!). That is ear damaging loud - what does the distortion look like at 80 db? 60-70 dB (30 -40 dB over ambient in my room, probably)? You might make the same argument that the deep bass and treble of the HD-600s also can't "scale" because the THD at those extremes is climbing with SPL. Even the amazing HD-800 is looking a little "distorty" at volume up to, say, 400 hz which indicates "distorted bass" and lower midrange. But somehow, I don't think you would agree. Or would you? By your own logic, those headphones also have problems that make spending the super-bucks pointless. Does "scalability" mean that you don't invest in headphones that can't maintain 0.001% distortion at 115 dB?
 
The fact is, some of the information to which you refer is not useful because it does not necessarily reflect the normal listening practice. I doubt most of us push our gear to their bleeding extremes and at the same time expect perfect performance. I don't care that the HE-400 are distorting more at 100 dB, I don't expect or want that kind of volume 90% of the time. BTW it isn't 100% clear to me what sort of distortion at the headphone level is a) relevant and b) clearly audible.
 
3) So you DO recommend the O2 after all. Lol. Great! FYI I was all about getting a Creek Amp before I found out about the O2. Glad I passed on it. I also got the O2 before Schiit released a competing product, so I had to take the leap of faith that the product wasn't pure snake oil. It isn't.

 

[macawparrot]

I have trouble deciding if my he 400s sound better through the headphone out of my fiio x5 or through the X5 line-out to my O2 amp. Usually I prefer the h/o of the x5

 

[TMRaven]

That post wasn't directed at you, MrMateoHead, nor anybody else in this thread for that matter, it's more of commentary towards the collective whole of certain mindset regarding amping and the O2.  I don't try to make things personal if I can avoid it.
 
The HE-400 does have some distortion problems logged with the measurements of both Innerfidelity and Purrin, yes.  I wasn't exactly referring to those numbers though.  I had the HE-400 before there were even measurements posted of it, and I found the midrange to sound slightly unclean, without the most black of backgrounds.  I attributed that to distortion and/or resonance.  At the time I couldn't pin-point my finger on it.  The measurements then later helped me clear that up.
 
That's what measurements are best for, they help you reference your subjective impressions, and they can give you a very vague estimate of how a headphone will sound,but they're not the best to tell you exactly how it would sound before you even listen to the headphones.
 
 
So no, I'm not making a generalized statement by saying having low distortion and ear-piercing SPLs leads to high scalability, I'm merely citing a couple of reasons why the HE-400 lacks scalability.