[kenz]

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Yes, but would you have said that if you were blindfolded?

 
haha...

 
actually played the video while running another page. it got so engaging that i went back to check the video out.
it was very good before but after watching it was like

 

[fuzzy1969]

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Does the C5 have the suck out like the c4's?

Honestly don't know, I cant hear it, generally suckout only really shows up on frequency sweep graphs most people cant hear it when playing normal music.

 

[Rakan]

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I think you misunderstood what I said. I am responding to your comment that 'if the treble of IEM is bad, you will never have a good soundstage' by pointing to you that there are tracks which you do not need your iem to be able to accurately reproduce the treble but could still determine the potential of that iem soundstaging/imaging capabilities. Treble will help to make things more apparent.

 
I am not sure about this, maybe some binaural tracks? According to some audiology documents that i read somewhere, for IEM, treble is the most important factor determine the soundstage/imaging capabilities of that IEM. I forgot where i read it but will copy some on wikipedia :
 
 
 

The auditory system uses these clues to estimate the distance to a sound source:

1. Sound spectrum : High frequencies are more quickly damped by the air than low frequencies. Therefore a distant sound source sounds more muffled than a close one, because the high frequencies are attenuated. For sound with a known spectrum (e.g. speech) the distance can be estimated roughly with the help of the perceived sound.
2. Loudness: Distant sound sources have a lower loudness than close ones. This aspect can be evaluated especially for well-known sound sources (e.g. known speakers).
3. Movement: Similar to the visual system there is also the phenomenon of motion parallax in acoustical perception. For a moving listener nearby sound sources are passing faster than distant sound sources.
4. Reflections: In enclosed rooms two types of sound are arriving at a listener: The direct sound arrives at the listener's ears without being reflected at a wall. Reflected sound has been reflected at least one time at a wall before arriving at the listener. The ratio between direct sound and reflected sound can give an indication about the distance of the sound source.

 
You can see that for IEMs, the 3 last factors can be taken out of the picture and treble is very important to reproduce the soundstage/imaging. If your C4s lacks in treble so much that you need to use the treble booster than i think there's no way they can have a proper soundstage. the soundstage should be either small or incoherent.
 
Soundstage/Imaging is the aspect of the C4s i like the most beside their bass and i don't think my TG334! can beat them in this regard. As for the suck out in the 4k region, i have seen it in the FR measured by Purrin on his forum but i can say i cannot hear it when listening to music.

 

[fuzzy1969]

As I understand it, I might be wrong but the best way to judge soundstage is to use a binaural recording (as Rakan says) but also to be present when the recording was made so you have a idea on instrument placings.

 

[Rakan]

Quote:

As I understand it, I might be wrong but the best way to judge soundstage is to use a binaural recording (as Rakan says) but also to be present when the recording was made so you have a idea on instrument placings.

I think we shouldn't use the Binaural recording to judge the soundstage as all the headphones sound so large in soundstage  when using these tracks, even my earpod X_X. 

 

[fuzzy1969]

Yes width can vary between headphones, but to judge depth ie. instrument further back on a stage then I think its the only way, my hd650's have a wider soundstage but the c5's have a greater sense of depth. edit Ive never heard a binaural recording, but this was the method LFF used when reviewing the c4's soundstage (I believe)

 

[uelover]

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If your C4s lacks in treble so much that you need to use the treble booster than i think there's no way they can have a proper soundstage. the soundstage should be either small or incoherent.

 
That is on the condition that my C4 sounded different from everyone elses' C4, something which David has not yet gotten back to me on.
 
Differing loudness is another important gauge for soundstage and I am not sure why you so happily took it off the consideration.
 
For those who does audio mixing, one could hard pan specific track in the mix (say violin) left or right to gauge the limits of the width of the soundstage.

 

[Rakan]

Quote:

 
That is on the condition that my C4 sounded different from everyone elses' C4, something which David has not yet gotten back to me on.
 
Differing loudness is another important gauge for soundstage and I am not sure why you so happily took it off the consideration.
 
For those who does audio mixing, one could hard pan specific track in the mix (say violin) left or right to gauge the limits of the width of the soundstage.

Did you email him? I don't think he can tell you that there's some problems on your C4s. The only way is to get it back to the Lab and do some measurements.
 
I find the difference in loudness and reflection are better applied for loudspeakers. This is why the soundstage of the loudspeakers is so impressive when put in a well treated room.
 
Not sure about the audio mixing part. If it's easy then all of the recordings should sound so spacious as the binaural tracks but they are not. I often used normal recorded track to judge the soundstage/imaging capabilities of the headphone to see how they actually do the job with most of the songs not some extremely well-recorded tracks such as the binaural ones.

 

[uelover]

Quote:

Did you email him? I don't think he can tell you that there's some problems on your C4s. The only way is to get it back to the Lab and do some measurements.
 
I find the difference in loudness and reflection are better applied for loudspeakers. This is why the soundstage of the loudspeakers is so impressive when put in a well treated room.
 
Not sure about the audio mixing part. If it's easy then all of the recordings should sound so spacious as the binaural tracks but they are not. I often used normal recorded track to judge the soundstage/imaging capabilities of the headphone to see how they actually do the job with most of the songs not some extremely well-recorded tracks such as the binaural ones.

 
Yes I emailed him yesterday before I posted anything here. What I heard is similar to what was shown on the FR graph. My point of reference is ER4P with Benchmark DAC1. The treble on the C4 is affecting the way voices and certain instruments are voiced.
 
I can understand how the majority of the audiophile community could accept that or may not detect that. If I were to play some nice audiophile music without being overly critical I can live with it. It is easy to listen to because of that dip (no listening fatigue in long listening session) and the bass and mids are taking the show here.
 
But the C4 doesn't give me that accurate sound - I know this is not a concern for anyone here.
 
Panning only affect the width. It is 2-D.

 

[zenpunk]

Very interesting. Your comment about "The treble on the C4 is affecting the way voices and certain instruments are voiced" is exactly what I experienced with the Heir 4A.i, which are said to be very similar in design.
I complained about it well before the A4.i was measured and the dip in the frequency was confirmed but nobody else at the time seemed to have issue with it. I sold them after two weeks as I found it to be too distracting despite the many other redeeming qualities of the 4A.i.

 

[AnakChan]

Quote:

Very interesting. Your comment about "The treble on the C4 is affecting the way voices and certain instruments are voiced" is exactly what I experienced with the Heir 4A.i, which are said to be very similar in design.
I complained about it well before the A4.i was measured and the dip in the frequency was confirmed but nobody else at the time seemed to have issue with it. I sold them after two weeks as I found it to be too distracting despite the many other redeeming qualities of the 4A.i.

 
Someone else pointed the similarity graphs to me and therefore the silent reader gets the credit. As for the graph generation, credit goes to Purrin. BTW the cutoff beyond 9kHz was done on purpose. Will need to ask Purrin more why but I'm guessing it'll be due to inaccuracy in measurements beyond this point.
 
FrogBeats C4 :-

 
Heir 4ai :-

 

[Kirosia]

How long after you were sent pics of CIEM, before they finally arrived at your doorstep? Here's mine:
 

 

[uelover]

Quote:

 

 
Both graphs look similar except that the dip on the C4 is greater than on the 4Ai.
Quote:

Very interesting. Your comment about "The treble on the C4 is affecting the way voices and certain instruments are voiced" is exactly what I experienced with the Heir 4A.i, which are said to be very similar in design.
I complained about it well before the A4.i was measured and the dip in the frequency was confirmed but nobody else at the time seemed to have issue with it. I sold them after two weeks as I found it to be too distracting despite the many other redeeming qualities of the 4A.i.

 
EQ-ing the treble to rectify the suckout gives me a more accurate sound but it is also not the best way of doing things. I don't expect that I will even need an EQ in the first place.
 
I ought to listen to the 4Ai to see how similar they are in the 2khz - 5khz region

 

[zenpunk]

Personally, I am among those who believe EQs or any kind of DSP, especially aberration such as the putrid DigiZoide thingy, are the work of the devil....

 

[EveTan]

Quote:

How long after you were sent pics of CIEM, before they finally arrived at your doorstep? Here's mine:
 

You mean : "Here's Kirosia's"
 

 
 
If you guys felt that much of a need to EQ, what apps, ipod oriented, are best? I've tried many, and most annoyingly made me "import" my songs into the app playlist and play music from there. I want to just EQ, and then go back to my music section and play directly from there. Something that maybe affects the whole ipod and not just songs within the app itself. 
 
Oh and what pc programs are there for EQing the entire system (if that's a possibility).
 
 
This might not belong in this thread, but I figured that you're all experts with this.