No wipe out, you can try another UI. Nice to know you enjoy your J3, a very nice DAP.
Cowon J3 Impressions Thread
doublea71
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2011
- Posts
- 3,077
- Likes
- 568
I've had mine for about 2 weeks and I'm feeling better about it. I was a bit underwhelmed initially, but I'm coming around as time goes by. Stupendous battery life, very good sound with Jet Effect, and a serviceable UI (I need to upgrade this). Pairs very well with VSonic GR07s if you don't skimp on your files - I've been trying to find as many MFSL (Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab) albums as I can get my mitts on, and they're excellent across the board. XTC's Skylarking by MFSL is stunning, as is Muddy Waters' Folk Singer, also by MFSL. It doesn't take much fiddling around with the Jet Effects to find a good sound, though Rockbox is still the king of eq options. There's a bit of hiss when I use my 1964 Quads, so I'm not sure if I need an impedance adapter or what. This is a damn good player any way you slice it, and it's very slim and lightweight...excellent value.
Blisse
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2009
- Posts
- 758
- Likes
- 26
Hi guys, I was wondering if there was any way to customize or replace the folder browser. If there is, I'd happily try my hand at re-doing the mess that is their folder browser (forme). My tags are not tagged the same way the Cowon does it. I'm just wondering: can it be done or not? o-o
Typhoon859
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- May 12, 2010
- Posts
- 428
- Likes
- 22
Quote:
That's been the problem I've had. As I've mentioned in the past though, the J3 with the Brainwavz M2 IEMs is a surprisingly good combination, and in terms of sound with portability as the biggest factor, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
In general, what you say still kind of remains true, though in this case, the colored sound is interesting and non-detrimental in such a way that for an hour or a few, from time to time, it's still always nice to come back to. But as others have also mentioned, flat, the sound really is cold and bitter, THROUGHOUT the frequency response I would say, and with the EQ, even though very capable, it still of course colors the sound, and in many areas, there's way too much compensation needing to be done. Albeit, in the end, no matter how you slice it, I will never be a fan of the bass for reasons which you mentioned.
Quote:
You would hear very clearly what the player is doing if you listen and pay attention to how it sounds like in all its listenable form factors with neutral headphones. To me, it's obvious even without because I can kind of mentally subtract the sound alterations made by other type headphones I may be using at the time (if I know them well). In any case, to really purely hear what the player is doing by default, you need a pair of neutral sounding cans. It's really not cool and there's little you can do even with all the effects because neutral headphones reveal all the negative repercussions from what you're trying to compensate for. It's not even about how good or bad the device's software EQ is because in the end, there are just certain things which can't be worked around.
To put in different words what h1a8 said, what Cowon really needs to do is work on the player sounding good by default using hardware (meaning it shouldn't be as light in theory nor battery friendly), with all its effects being an added bonus. No matter how good the software, it ultimately never trumps good hardware (with all which that entails)...
Quote:
Oh wow... I don't even know how that hasn't crossed my mind... Probably because I didn't imagine putting the player in that context since I assumed it was fully designed with headphones as the intended target. The Stereo Enhance effect would actually make sense for speakers to possibly correct the imaging based on their placement and/or surroundings. Nicely done on that intuitive guess!
In terms of the J3 not being powerful enough, no, that's really not the case. When it comes to amplification, that's one thing the J3 definitely has down. Unfortunately, any benefits are directly hindered by its other inherent flaws. See the first quoted text by h1a8 and check out my response. That's what it's related to.
Also, try to find you preferred sound in relation to the J3 with the player on its own. As I've mentioned, the issue is not related to amplification and using the E17 in the way you're using is pointless. As a matter of fact, if you can find a sound you like WITH the amp, you'll probably be able to find something better/more fitting with the player standalone.
I'm not sure what you have but at the very least for your laptop for sure, the E17 would serve a better function as a DAC for it than simply an amp for a Cowon player. For the function it serves now, it would make sense for like the sound signature/weaknesses of most Apple products (including the iPad) or anything with line-out/SPDIF capability. Obviously it would also be for devices which simply don't have enough power to drive certain headphones purely in the sense of how loud it goes. Check out my response below, lol.
PS- I really want the E17! XD I have the E11, which in the setup you described would serve the same function.
Quote:
First I have to mention that sadly, it's only wishful thinking that just 8-year-olds listen to Justin Bieber and other artists alike (all pop artists today XD). It's more like everyone (still to varying degrees of course) up till the age of 35. People over that age who were casual listeners before literally for the most part just stopped listening to music at all... Things in society and things culturally are generally just really screwed up right now.
Anyway, these so-called experts which you speak of might need better ears and/or knowledge on the subject because connecting a Cowon to a portable amp is virtually pointless. Another problem with the J3 as I've mentioned elsewhere earlier is that it doesn't have a line-out. The headphone output is sound coming from its own already integrated amplifier which is powerful enough to drive whichever headphones that would make sense using, top-end or not, so adding another amplifier to the chain would just be coloring the already colored sound, and if anything, weakening the signal/adding some kind of distortion...
That's been the problem I've had. As I've mentioned in the past though, the J3 with the Brainwavz M2 IEMs is a surprisingly good combination, and in terms of sound with portability as the biggest factor, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
In general, what you say still kind of remains true, though in this case, the colored sound is interesting and non-detrimental in such a way that for an hour or a few, from time to time, it's still always nice to come back to. But as others have also mentioned, flat, the sound really is cold and bitter, THROUGHOUT the frequency response I would say, and with the EQ, even though very capable, it still of course colors the sound, and in many areas, there's way too much compensation needing to be done. Albeit, in the end, no matter how you slice it, I will never be a fan of the bass for reasons which you mentioned.
Quote:
You would hear very clearly what the player is doing if you listen and pay attention to how it sounds like in all its listenable form factors with neutral headphones. To me, it's obvious even without because I can kind of mentally subtract the sound alterations made by other type headphones I may be using at the time (if I know them well). In any case, to really purely hear what the player is doing by default, you need a pair of neutral sounding cans. It's really not cool and there's little you can do even with all the effects because neutral headphones reveal all the negative repercussions from what you're trying to compensate for. It's not even about how good or bad the device's software EQ is because in the end, there are just certain things which can't be worked around.
To put in different words what h1a8 said, what Cowon really needs to do is work on the player sounding good by default using hardware (meaning it shouldn't be as light in theory nor battery friendly), with all its effects being an added bonus. No matter how good the software, it ultimately never trumps good hardware (with all which that entails)...
Quote:
Oh wow... I don't even know how that hasn't crossed my mind... Probably because I didn't imagine putting the player in that context since I assumed it was fully designed with headphones as the intended target. The Stereo Enhance effect would actually make sense for speakers to possibly correct the imaging based on their placement and/or surroundings. Nicely done on that intuitive guess!
In terms of the J3 not being powerful enough, no, that's really not the case. When it comes to amplification, that's one thing the J3 definitely has down. Unfortunately, any benefits are directly hindered by its other inherent flaws. See the first quoted text by h1a8 and check out my response. That's what it's related to.
Also, try to find you preferred sound in relation to the J3 with the player on its own. As I've mentioned, the issue is not related to amplification and using the E17 in the way you're using is pointless. As a matter of fact, if you can find a sound you like WITH the amp, you'll probably be able to find something better/more fitting with the player standalone.
I'm not sure what you have but at the very least for your laptop for sure, the E17 would serve a better function as a DAC for it than simply an amp for a Cowon player. For the function it serves now, it would make sense for like the sound signature/weaknesses of most Apple products (including the iPad) or anything with line-out/SPDIF capability. Obviously it would also be for devices which simply don't have enough power to drive certain headphones purely in the sense of how loud it goes. Check out my response below, lol.
PS- I really want the E17! XD I have the E11, which in the setup you described would serve the same function.
Quote:
First I have to mention that sadly, it's only wishful thinking that just 8-year-olds listen to Justin Bieber and other artists alike (all pop artists today XD). It's more like everyone (still to varying degrees of course) up till the age of 35. People over that age who were casual listeners before literally for the most part just stopped listening to music at all... Things in society and things culturally are generally just really screwed up right now.
Anyway, these so-called experts which you speak of might need better ears and/or knowledge on the subject because connecting a Cowon to a portable amp is virtually pointless. Another problem with the J3 as I've mentioned elsewhere earlier is that it doesn't have a line-out. The headphone output is sound coming from its own already integrated amplifier which is powerful enough to drive whichever headphones that would make sense using, top-end or not, so adding another amplifier to the chain would just be coloring the already colored sound, and if anything, weakening the signal/adding some kind of distortion...
doublea71
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2011
- Posts
- 3,077
- Likes
- 568
Quote:
Check out iaudiophile.net - they have a lot of useful information on all things Cowon. I'm having the same problems with the tags - all of my music needs to be reloaded because of their dreadful UI. At first I thought it was serviceable, but not so much now. It shouldn't take too long to sort it out. If only rockbox would tackle the J3...that would make this player strong on all fronts...the UI is the glaring weakness for the J3.
Check out iaudiophile.net - they have a lot of useful information on all things Cowon. I'm having the same problems with the tags - all of my music needs to be reloaded because of their dreadful UI. At first I thought it was serviceable, but not so much now. It shouldn't take too long to sort it out. If only rockbox would tackle the J3...that would make this player strong on all fronts...the UI is the glaring weakness for the J3.
autoexec
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Posts
- 511
- Likes
- 71
Quote:
But I swear I can hear a more controlled bass/clearer highs and more transparent sound when pairing with E17. I can swear that it isn't psychological, I know when there's a chance it is but here, no, I know I'm hearing right. How can you be so sure that an amp wouldn't fix the problem? Btw, I don't have any bass or treble gain, just +6db gain and everything goes good.
But I swear I can hear a more controlled bass/clearer highs and more transparent sound when pairing with E17. I can swear that it isn't psychological, I know when there's a chance it is but here, no, I know I'm hearing right. How can you be so sure that an amp wouldn't fix the problem? Btw, I don't have any bass or treble gain, just +6db gain and everything goes good.
Typhoon859
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- May 12, 2010
- Posts
- 428
- Likes
- 22
Quote:
That's interesting. From what you were just saying I wouldn't have called that you aren't using the bass gain.
To be honest, you VERY MUCH remind me of myself. I can tell that you do in fact have very good ears. You sound like I did a while ago when I was really trying to get the feel of sound in all ways which that entails. I also swore by what I heard and I wasn't entirely wrong.
The only way you can tell if you're getting a benefit is after you've truly found a sound you like with the player standalone and then compare, hence the reason for my suggestion. This may take a while of constant tampering and learning (unfortunately). You may very well be getting an improved sound if you have the EQ of the player completely turned off. The effect of the amp is still as I mentioned though; it's just in this case, it is for the better. It isn't in the way you would want it though.
As I mentioned, I have the FiiO E11 amp and I've tried pairing it with the Cowon J3. After testing it for a while and comparing, I actually laughed at myself for being so excited for it in the sense that I was. It was a great investment for the other purposes I mentioned along with other, truly, but with the Cowon, I was still stuck with what I came in to this with. As I realized what was going on, it was evident to me that it was pointless because the Cowon is truly sufficient in that department and its other flaws that an additional amp simply doesn't overwrite (may in instances just properly color it). You see what I'm saying?
BTW, is it with your DT1350's that you're doing all this testing with? I wish I had those headphones so I could maybe help you out, but man, are those expensive headphones, lol. Just FYI, I'm using the Brainwavz HM5's (Fischer Audio FA-003's).
Another rule I'd like to simply lay out there, if you simply hear an improvement in sound, it doesn't always mean that it's the right means to an end. If you're not FULLY satisfied with the sound from the Cowon even with the amp, especially considering that this is meant for portable use, its pointless to add such a component. Again, with the Cowon it just makes very little sense, especially as it would for say a video iPod. There's no other direction that exists in that case, you see? Not the best point to finish at but I trust you take things as a whole and try working with it. So, thank you, I really appreciate you truly thinking, even if you end up disagreeing with me; that's of course your right
But I swear I can hear a more controlled bass/clearer highs and more transparent sound when pairing with E17. I can swear that it isn't psychological, I know when there's a chance it is but here, no, I know I'm hearing right. How can you be so sure that an amp wouldn't fix the problem? Btw, I don't have any bass or treble gain, just +6db gain and everything goes good.
That's interesting. From what you were just saying I wouldn't have called that you aren't using the bass gain.
To be honest, you VERY MUCH remind me of myself. I can tell that you do in fact have very good ears. You sound like I did a while ago when I was really trying to get the feel of sound in all ways which that entails. I also swore by what I heard and I wasn't entirely wrong.
The only way you can tell if you're getting a benefit is after you've truly found a sound you like with the player standalone and then compare, hence the reason for my suggestion. This may take a while of constant tampering and learning (unfortunately). You may very well be getting an improved sound if you have the EQ of the player completely turned off. The effect of the amp is still as I mentioned though; it's just in this case, it is for the better. It isn't in the way you would want it though.
As I mentioned, I have the FiiO E11 amp and I've tried pairing it with the Cowon J3. After testing it for a while and comparing, I actually laughed at myself for being so excited for it in the sense that I was. It was a great investment for the other purposes I mentioned along with other, truly, but with the Cowon, I was still stuck with what I came in to this with. As I realized what was going on, it was evident to me that it was pointless because the Cowon is truly sufficient in that department and its other flaws that an additional amp simply doesn't overwrite (may in instances just properly color it). You see what I'm saying?
BTW, is it with your DT1350's that you're doing all this testing with? I wish I had those headphones so I could maybe help you out, but man, are those expensive headphones, lol. Just FYI, I'm using the Brainwavz HM5's (Fischer Audio FA-003's).
Another rule I'd like to simply lay out there, if you simply hear an improvement in sound, it doesn't always mean that it's the right means to an end. If you're not FULLY satisfied with the sound from the Cowon even with the amp, especially considering that this is meant for portable use, its pointless to add such a component. Again, with the Cowon it just makes very little sense, especially as it would for say a video iPod. There's no other direction that exists in that case, you see? Not the best point to finish at but I trust you take things as a whole and try working with it. So, thank you, I really appreciate you truly thinking, even if you end up disagreeing with me; that's of course your right
zachchen1996
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2012
- Posts
- 2,277
- Likes
- 158
I'm planning on getting um miracles or jh13's in the future. Should i get a stepdance for the j3, or is it not worth it? The j3 should be powerful enough for the miracles and jh13's right?
autoexec
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2009
- Posts
- 511
- Likes
- 71
@Typhoon859
Oh.. now I see your point. It's not worth the effort if the result is not that much of an improvement. now I agree. but still whenever I want to use it with better sound I can pair my E17 with it at least. lol.. though as you say, not practical and makes very little sense.. I just want to make the most out of my J3 as I love it so much.. lol. Yeah I usually use my DT1350 for A/B testing of sources because that's where I hear the differences better. and yeah, no bass gain on amp or eq on J3 and bass depth and texture improves and I don't know the technical term for this but you know when a song has sudden silence on it usually breakdown parts of a metal song, the silence really improves too with the amp. It is really more precise and cleaner with the amp but anyway, I still gotta have to have a better portable.. hopefully longer battery life than the N2. Thanks for your time to reply man..
Oh.. now I see your point. It's not worth the effort if the result is not that much of an improvement. now I agree. but still whenever I want to use it with better sound I can pair my E17 with it at least. lol.. though as you say, not practical and makes very little sense.. I just want to make the most out of my J3 as I love it so much.. lol. Yeah I usually use my DT1350 for A/B testing of sources because that's where I hear the differences better. and yeah, no bass gain on amp or eq on J3 and bass depth and texture improves and I don't know the technical term for this but you know when a song has sudden silence on it usually breakdown parts of a metal song, the silence really improves too with the amp. It is really more precise and cleaner with the amp but anyway, I still gotta have to have a better portable.. hopefully longer battery life than the N2. Thanks for your time to reply man..
Typhoon859
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- May 12, 2010
- Posts
- 428
- Likes
- 22
No problem.
If you do try doing the EQ without the amp, I'm curious what you'll come up with so let me know if you can
. Even though I don't have those headphones, based on the many other headphones I've made EQ for, I think I'll have the general idea on what you may need to further do. One thing that really makes a difference in the sense that you say your amp does is boosting all the frequencies to a significant extent, like averaging +3 - +5. A/B between two user presets and adjust the volume accordingly when switching. That's a good way to see if you're going in the right direction.
H20Fidelity
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2012
- Posts
- 16,289
- Likes
- 6,779
Quote:
Don't worry, I pair my S9 with E11 achieving excellent results, you'll find several others who do aswell. It's not placebo. I'm not going into the whole "amping sources" thing. The bottom line is some people believe in amping particular sources, other don't, like anything in life. You will always find people who take different paths and beliefs, the main thing is, no-one trys to convert anyone to theirs.... If you feel you're hearing a difference as I do continue using your E17, because my E11 is not going anywhere away from my paired Cowon S9.
Don't worry, I pair my S9 with E11 achieving excellent results, you'll find several others who do aswell. It's not placebo. I'm not going into the whole "amping sources" thing. The bottom line is some people believe in amping particular sources, other don't, like anything in life. You will always find people who take different paths and beliefs, the main thing is, no-one trys to convert anyone to theirs.... If you feel you're hearing a difference as I do continue using your E17, because my E11 is not going anywhere away from my paired Cowon S9.
Typhoon859
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- May 12, 2010
- Posts
- 428
- Likes
- 22
Quote:
If you were going to pair your player with an amp, why would you get a Cowon? If you're going to amp a signal, you'd want a relatively neutral sound coming in so that the amp serves its purpose keeping it balanced at all volumes with the option of boosting whatever the amp allows you to. The whole point of the Cowon in design is the opposite of doing that, not only logically, but sound wise as well. Nobody is trying to convert anyone here. I for instance was only thankful to those who explained to me these things before I knew them just as my mate here was who was a pleasure talking to. Of course I didn't agree then because I in fact heard different (and didn't know my other options) but I couldn't discredit the ideas either. Getting high quality neutral headphones helped me sort out what's what quickly, and really, that's the point which I really tested these things out because prior, there were too many other factors getting in the way.
The fact of the matter is, even if you 100% no matter what are getting a better sound with that combination with your source of output, the point is that you can achieve something better with less extremes. As most things, the more simple, the usually better. Considering Cowon is intended for sound quality, you'd think if it was meant to be connected to an amp, it'd have a line-out (which I wish it did) but it doesn't. Because of this fact, as I mentioned to my friend there earlier, just because you hear an improvement in sound due to something you've done, it doesn't make it the right means to the end of what you're looking for. Many times it just ends up being an obstacle unknowingly because you put it in your head that it's definitely something you tested and remembering hearing an improvement with. I'm only trying to help from my experience. I wish I could physically show you what I mean although even then it might take a few listening hours of one method vs. whatever other.
Listen, do what you like, but it never hurts to try something else or revisit what you did before if you're truly interested in achieving the best sound for yourself. Actually, I will go back to the drawing board myself. What EQ preset (if there is one) do you use with your Cowon when pairing with your headphones? Is it some general one or do you use personal EQ settings, different for all? I will compare my E11 paired with the Cowon to my personal EQ settings I made for each pair of headphones without it.
PS- Think about this.. Connect another amp to the amp you have connected. Suppose it sounds better. What do you say to yourself (assuming this weren't an inconvenience)?
Don't worry, I pair my S9 with E11 achieving excellent results, you'll find several others who do aswell. It's not placebo. I'm not going into the whole "amping sources" thing. The bottom line is some people believe in amping particular sources, other don't, like anything in life. You will always find people who take different paths and beliefs, the main thing is, no-one trys to convert anyone to theirs.... If you feel you're hearing a difference as I do continue using your E17, because my E11 is not going anywhere away from my paired Cowon S9.
If you were going to pair your player with an amp, why would you get a Cowon? If you're going to amp a signal, you'd want a relatively neutral sound coming in so that the amp serves its purpose keeping it balanced at all volumes with the option of boosting whatever the amp allows you to. The whole point of the Cowon in design is the opposite of doing that, not only logically, but sound wise as well. Nobody is trying to convert anyone here. I for instance was only thankful to those who explained to me these things before I knew them just as my mate here was who was a pleasure talking to. Of course I didn't agree then because I in fact heard different (and didn't know my other options) but I couldn't discredit the ideas either. Getting high quality neutral headphones helped me sort out what's what quickly, and really, that's the point which I really tested these things out because prior, there were too many other factors getting in the way.
The fact of the matter is, even if you 100% no matter what are getting a better sound with that combination with your source of output, the point is that you can achieve something better with less extremes. As most things, the more simple, the usually better. Considering Cowon is intended for sound quality, you'd think if it was meant to be connected to an amp, it'd have a line-out (which I wish it did) but it doesn't. Because of this fact, as I mentioned to my friend there earlier, just because you hear an improvement in sound due to something you've done, it doesn't make it the right means to the end of what you're looking for. Many times it just ends up being an obstacle unknowingly because you put it in your head that it's definitely something you tested and remembering hearing an improvement with. I'm only trying to help from my experience. I wish I could physically show you what I mean although even then it might take a few listening hours of one method vs. whatever other.
Listen, do what you like, but it never hurts to try something else or revisit what you did before if you're truly interested in achieving the best sound for yourself. Actually, I will go back to the drawing board myself. What EQ preset (if there is one) do you use with your Cowon when pairing with your headphones? Is it some general one or do you use personal EQ settings, different for all? I will compare my E11 paired with the Cowon to my personal EQ settings I made for each pair of headphones without it.
PS- Think about this.. Connect another amp to the amp you have connected. Suppose it sounds better. What do you say to yourself (assuming this weren't an inconvenience)?
Xinn3r
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2011
- Posts
- 401
- Likes
- 17
How does the J3 compare SQ-wise VS. Android Wolfson DAC + Vodoo?
Typhoon859
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- May 12, 2010
- Posts
- 428
- Likes
- 22
I would wager that the latter is better. In the end it's always opinion but I tried the Galaxy Nexus phone recently and it was the first device (after EQ) that was on par with the J3, if not slightly better and more natural sounding. That was without Voodoo...
PS- You didn't like the ViSang R03's?
Unfie
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2010
- Posts
- 539
- Likes
- 35
Yay, I finally found my "lost" Cowon J3. It was apparently hidden somewhere in my messy closet. I guess I should clean more often. Anyway, I've noticed how much less of a basshead I've become over time. When I first got my Cowon J3 with Westone 2's, I set the bass to 10. Now I have it at 2. The HD 650's on my desktop rig helped me get rid of the basshead in me too, I suppose. It helped me appreciate the rest of the frequency spectrum.
Users who are viewing this thread
