Sep 26, 2011 at 2:44 PM Post #136 of 631
Purrin, what do you mean ringing?  Something related to reverb?


Click on the SR80, HF2, DJ100, and LCD2 waterfall plots in my sig. You will see sharp ridges (to a lesser extent on the LCD2). This behavior manifests as hardness, glare, nastiness, etc. It generally sounds like someone shoving a screwdriver into your eardrums. If you are not familiar with waterfall plots, they measure the energy of the audio spectrum over time of an impulse response. A "perfect" plot would a wall at 0ms, and instantaneously fall to nothing (actually the noise floor) at the next step.
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:04 PM Post #138 of 631
Think about this so called 'increased resolution'...
 
I suppose if I were to move from a HD650 to a HD800 I could say the sound is so much clearer, but what I'm really saying is the treble is louder. I grouped the HD800 in with the SA5000 for this similar reason, they both have +dB highs and this translates into resolution. While on the subject a HD650 owner might consider the LCD-2 more of an upgrade than a HD800 which they might consider a side step or possibly flat out dislike the phone for it's energetic treble.
 
Ultimately we're seeing tweaks with emphasis on the treble to give the illusion of a higher-tier for audiophiles. At the other end of the headphone game we're seeing boosted bass which attracts bass-heads/kids.


LOL! I F'ing hate the treble on the HD800! Every time I hear a Sennheiser rep claim the 'phone is "neutral", I want to wring his neck! On the other hand, I deeply appreciate some of the technology that's been incorporated into the HD800 to give it truly superior resolution, a moderately fast clean open sound, and extremely well matched drivers (this can be an expensive / time-consuming process.)

I've been through a lot to make the HD800s sound good (meaning impactful bass and smoother toned-down highs,) including modifications to the HD800s, replacement/upgrade to an amp, and careful selection of driver and output tubes. Even then, I'm only 90% happy. The question is: why do I not have to make such efforts with speakers that cost $1500?

Yeah, I've thought about the increased resolution thing. With the HD800 it's not necessarily the treble doing it - they actually are fast, clean, and hyper-resolving. If they weren't, I wouldn't have used it as a platform to build a dynamic setup around. (I certainly wasn't going to use the LCD2s as I felt they lacked the "raw" material.) To put things in perspective I don't think other trebly 'phones such as the SA5000, RS-1, K701 are nearly as resolving.
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:33 PM Post #139 of 631


Quote:
AKG has been owned by Harman for almost 20 years...
 
tongue.gif


And I have disliked their headphones more and more for 20 years in spite of the cool purple tint on the new K240 and the green qable on the Q701. 
tongue.gif
  I think we've had this discussion before, and as I remember, you like the K701 a lot.  Which is not to be disputed of course, but there are a lot of folks on here who prefer the K400 to the K701, enough that the K701 can't be simply called "better" IMO, but instead "different".  But regardless, AKG released innovative (if imperfect) headphones and Harman has taken decades to turn the K400 into the K701 and meanwhile repainted and cheapened the rest of their lineup.  We'll see what happens with the K550, maybe they'll prove me wrong.  That would be cool.
 
Quote:
In terms of the high-end, what's disturbing (and rhythmdevils and I had have much discussion on this), is that many of these recently released high-end phones have increased resolution, but have not addressed or even gone backwards on neutrality (linear frequency response and lack of ringing.) I've railed against this on other threads: the manufacturers should start producing truly good and innovative stuff instead rehashing designs with the same 'ol issues.


Yeah, the new stuff is all higher resolution, but just as flawed as headphones produced 3 decades ago IMO.  In my experience with the LCD-2, HE6 and HD800, they have their charms but I don't find them any more listenable than my K240 Sextett, they just have different strengths and different, but equally (if not more) bothersome weaknesses.
 
Quote:
Think about this so called 'increased resolution'...
 
I suppose if I were to move from a HD650 to a HD800 I could say the sound is so much clearer, but what I'm really saying is the treble is louder. I grouped the HD800 in with the SA5000 for this similar reason, they both have +dB highs and this translates into resolution. While on the subject a HD650 owner might consider the LCD-2 more of an upgrade than a HD800 which they might consider a side step or possibly flat out dislike the phone for it's energetic treble.
 
Ultimately we're seeing tweaks with emphasis on the treble to give the illusion of a higher-tier for audiophiles. At the other end of the headphone game we're seeing boosted bass which attracts bass-heads/kids.


I agree with you, but I don't think the new flagships use this trick anymore than their older "mid-fi" brothers.  I mean is the DT880 more even in the treble than the T1?  The DT880, IME, has spiked treble to create the illusion of speed and detail as well.  So do many "mid-fi" offerings like the SA5000. 
 
What bothers me (and I think Purrin as well) is that many of these companies have created much more expensive headphones with various new technologies, yet instead of fixing the problems with their old designs, they've just tried to increase the apparent resolution.  They have faster drivers that still exhibit the same (if not worse) issues with uneven FR and ringing.  So if all you care about is hearing detail, then you're in luck.  Otherwise listening to all these flagship headphones is like watching a crappy movie in HD.  All the detail is great, but it's still a crap movie, the color is still off, the cinematography is still rubbish, whatever... 
 
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:36 PM Post #140 of 631
Simply said the LCD2's weight is sufficient to disqualify it as a headphone to me.
 
Tried the HE500 and actually felt it was far from what's the hype about on this forum. Yeah it did sounded good, but I really don't see the "technical advantage" of orthos to dynamics, and its not even sounded "good" enough to replace any of my current collection. Not to mention the weight, orz...
 
The 009 was so good btw, perhaps the most "perfect" headphone experience of mine. Not really like the O2mk2 and perhaps sr404 though..
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:44 PM Post #143 of 631


Quote:
I love the LCD2 but I hate the Senn HD800.  Does that make me a failed audiophile as well?  :)



Same here, I never liked HD800, prefer Denon AH-D7000 or LCD2.
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:59 PM Post #144 of 631
Very interesting read. I agree with you about thick and impracticable cables. Also agree that weight needs to be reduced and those silly oversized connectors...what  were they thinking
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 3:59 PM Post #145 of 631
I am actually inclined to agree with swbf2cheater,  mid-fi is really where we should be at.  Our sets costing $1000, with amps and DACs costing likewise, it just sheer ludicrousness, a lot of these cans do not cost more than $100 to make I'm sure, they are just absurdly marked up like that. 
 


It's not just the manufacturing costs we're talking about. R&D is a very real part of the cost of these niche products.
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 4:06 PM Post #146 of 631
Quote:
I agree with you, but I don't think the new flagships use this trick anymore than their older "mid-fi" brothers.  I mean is the DT880 more even in the treble than the T1?  The DT880, IME, has spiked treble to create the illusion of speed and detail as well.  So do many "mid-fi" offerings like the SA5000. 
 
What bothers me (and I think Purrin as well) is that many of these companies have created much more expensive headphones with various new technologies, yet instead of fixing the problems with their old designs, they've just tried to increase the apparent resolution.  They have faster drivers that still exhibit the same (if not worse) issues with uneven FR and ringing.  So if all you care about is hearing detail, then you're in luck.  Otherwise listening to all these flagship headphones is like watching a crappy movie in HD.  All the detail is great, but it's still a crap movie, the color is still off, the cinematography is still rubbish, whatever... 

 
I'm not excluding the so called mid-fi offerings when talking about boosted treble, especially where the SA5000 is involved. I'm saying with Sennheiser going in this direction it's a far cry from the HD650 but quite similar to the Sony. As far as which one is better I'd have to say comes down to personal taste.
 
I don't consider the $1,000 headphones in a separate category to the so called mid-fi headphones, so when a problem isn't fixed by such companies it doesn't at all surprise me. Likewise having been here for a number of years I'm also not surprised to see people shelling out over a $1,000 for a pair of headphones, back when I started with a small budget however I saw $300 headphones, amps and source as unnecessary.
 
Therefore if your perfect headphone happens to be a HD800 then you're going to want that, even if technically it is no more a headphone than it's older siblings the premium today is unavoidable.
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 4:57 PM Post #147 of 631
Well...
I'm pretty sure I will never buy $1000 headphones.
I believe I've reached my "peak" with the Shure 940s and the Sennheiser HD600s... ($300 or so each)
They are different enough (sound signatures) that warrant me great results with many different genres...
 
The trouble/problem for me comes when ... dammit, I hate to say it, you find a CHEAP
alternative and music sounds MUCH FUN than your $300 and up cans...
 
So I say, experiment with earbuds, in-ear, whatever, I'm sure you'll find something
either cheap or expensive that will make you enjoy music as you are supposed
to!!!!
 
Good luck! :-p
 
Sep 26, 2011 at 11:27 PM Post #149 of 631
The point of the topic was to release some demons I had raging inside of me, not to cause a fuss and prove or disprove anything with a topic poll :D
 
anywho, thats the last I shall speak of it, didn't expect so many strong opinions in such a short amount of time


Your demons are dorks.
 
Sep 27, 2011 at 4:44 AM Post #150 of 631
Dude, time to head back to "budget" portables. I find my tastes are less picky when I have money for good food and women. Wait that sentence didn't quite parse right...
 

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