Chord Hugo
Feb 2, 2015 at 4:51 AM Post #9,541 of 15,694
DACs sound the same if you don't listen or if you are very hard of hearing.

Funny thing is, there are massive differences in measurements with different DACs, they certainly do not measure the same.

Frankly, life would be so much simpler if there were no differences; we would all be enjoying the sound of a live orchestra in our homes without all this trouble and expense!

Rob 


That would be so boring Rob. Just like if everyone looked the same or all wines tasted the same...

But agree for some reason audio more than others (perhaps photography) the hardware seems to get in the way of the software more often than not..
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 5:30 AM Post #9,542 of 15,694
That would be so boring Rob. Just like if everyone looked the same or all wines tasted the same...

But agree for some reason audio more than others (perhaps photography) the hardware seems to get in the way of the software more often than not..

Of course, and if everything sounded the same I would have nothing to do all day! The fun of my job is discovering new things that can improve the sound, and there are still nuggets of gold to find. But what constantly amazes me is how small some errors needs to be before it becomes inaudible. And it is because we can hear (or more rather the brain can detect) miniscule errors that makes designing so interesting.
 
Rob 
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 5:39 AM Post #9,543 of 15,694
  Of course, and if everything sounded the same I would have nothing to do all day! The fun of my job is discovering new things that can improve the sound, and there are still nuggets of gold to find. But what constantly amazes me is how small some errors needs to be before it becomes inaudible. And it is because we can hear (or more rather the brain can detect) miniscule errors that makes designing so interesting.
 
Rob 

Hate to open the can of worms.  But, I'd really like to hear your take on balanced output for HPs.
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 5:40 AM Post #9,544 of 15,694
Of course, and if everything sounded the same I would have nothing to do all day! The fun of my job is discovering new things that can improve the sound, and there are still nuggets of gold to find. But what constantly amazes me is how small some errors needs to be before it becomes inaudible. And it is because we can hear (or more rather the brain can detect) miniscule errors that makes designing so interesting.

Rob 


Rob - I read somewhere (don't even remember now) that even the power supply and especially switch power supplies can introduce jitter into dac that is noticeable. Since you use batteries on the Hugo and the TT - I'm guessing you have more than a few tiings to say about this?
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 6:07 AM Post #9,545 of 15,694
  after reading for three hours about it, it seems that it is under chord hugo by at least being in another league... so far so good, it seems that idsd micro does not come close to chord hugo... now i was back in the sound science area and back there, they said that every DAC is totally transparent and it sounds the same...
 
this place is getting confusing, and i cannot seem to get an objective opinion from everyone...
 
okay so i back at the main question to myself, why does chord hugo sound better than my x5 in my test?
does the DAC sound different at all from other DACs
Do all DACs have a different sound?
 
Sorry, after reading through audio science, i got out more confused, i was just curious if it is worth making a 3 piece with fiio x5, chord hugo and another portable amp, to save some battery life from hugo, and i got totally another opinions on the matter...

 Not sure if I've been following what you wrote previously but its always best to try it out yourself and see what sound suits you.
 
As for my personal opinion. I had iDSD micro for a short period. You can say it gives the similar sounds to Hugo as many will say Auralic Taurus does the same.
From my personal listening (my ears), iDSD exceed its price/performance. Also if I can compare it in my own words, iDSD micro can be called Hugo young and immature little brother.
the Micro will wow you and surprise you, but after a while, you'll want something more refine for long listening of high quality and consistency.
If you want the best 'portable' DAC/AMP and have the budget - get Hugo.
If budget is limited, iDSD micro is not so bad of a compromise.
 
my2cent
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 6:09 AM Post #9,546 of 15,694
  Of course, and if everything sounded the same I would have nothing to do all day! The fun of my job is discovering new things that can improve the sound, and there are still nuggets of gold to find. But what constantly amazes me is how small some errors needs to be before it becomes inaudible. And it is because we can hear (or more rather the brain can detect) miniscule errors that makes designing so interesting.
 
Rob 

Thanks for the input! 
 
I was starting to get worried that DACs could be not that different.
 
I am a little curious, i am following this thread for quite some time, and i will stop following after i buy a chord hugo, until i am convinced i still have questions...
 
What sound was trying to be achieved when chord hugo was designed?.. i hhave read on more than one thread that there was a specific sound that was the ideal, so this is why hugo is so magical compared to all other DAPs...
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 7:13 AM Post #9,548 of 15,694
Thanks for the input! 

I was starting to get worried that DACs could be not that different.

I am a little curious, i am following this thread for quite some time, and i will stop following after i buy a chord hugo, until i am convinced i still have questions...

What sound was trying to be achieved when chord hugo was designed?.. i hhave read on more than one thread that there was a specific sound that was the ideal, so this is why hugo is so magical compared to all other DAPs...


This might not sound terribly useful but the best way is to really listen more and read less. It is not like buying a notebook or tablet where specs and tests in reviews tells you most if not all you need to know to decide on a purchase. For audio nothing substitute listening for yourself.

A pragmatic way to navigate thru hype, myth, or pseudoscience is to compare your own experience with what is written, and form a view on who's impressions match more closely to your own and can use as a reference for gears you can't access before buying.

For me, Hugo doesn't "have a sound". It is just very detailed and resolve as much as anything in the recording. It is transparent and everything sounded as real as they have sounded over a headphone or IEM to me. It also present the sound with perceptible layers that different sounds won't mesh in an incoherent way. It provide the necessary sharpness in notes attack while allowing live-like timbre around the notes edges. These are all qualities I like and value. Whenever I want a "warm" or "cold" sound I just pair the Hugo with one of my more colored IEMs/headphones. Or add a tube amp to it for more power.
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 7:55 AM Post #9,549 of 15,694
  Thanks for the input! 
 
I was starting to get worried that DACs could be not that different.
 
I am a little curious, i am following this thread for quite some time, and i will stop following after i buy a chord hugo, until i am convinced i still have questions...
 
What sound was trying to be achieved when chord hugo was designed?.. i hhave read on more than one thread that there was a specific sound that was the ideal, so this is why hugo is so magical compared to all other DAPs...

What sound? None has always been the goal. Hugo has never been tweaked or voiced to sound a certain way. Now, the objective is to make it sound as musical as possible, so that when you listen to music, you become emotionally involved, otherwise why do it? Trouble is, how does one relate that goal into engineering? My view has always been to make the design as transparent as possible, that is for it to add no sound signature at all. Now if one listens to live un-amplified live music, there exists an enormous gulf between the sound of real instruments and high end audio reproduction, and if all the pieces in the chain were perfectly transparent, we would be unable to tell the difference between live and reproduced - and we would get that glorious sound of acoustic instruments all the time.
 
The problem is, nobody has ever heard what a transparent device would sound like - normally the term neutral really means the average sound of all the devices out there. So how does one design for transparency? One looks for distortions or aberrations that one can hear, then make improvements until those aberrations disappear. To make those aberrations disappear means careful, objective listening tests. But since nobody has heard the ideal device, there is no fixed reference to compare against. Additionally, when making design changes, one often changes something else as well. So its vital that careful listening tests are done, and in this case I am looking for changes in terms of variations. If one gets more variations in placement of instruments, we know for certain that transparency is better. If we get more variations in timbre (bright instruments brighter, rich instruments sounding smoother etc) then transparency is again better. If instrument separation is better, then it is more transparent. If the starting and stopping of notes are easier to perceive, then we know its better.
 
Now I have spent 30 years as a designer, when understanding why something made a difference to the sound, then reducing individual aberrations (to improve transparency) would result in a more musical sound - but this was an article of faith. But this was only proven when I first heard Hugo with all of its code, and frankly this experience is etched in my memory. It was a result of a 6 year upgrade in all the verilog modules that go into the FPGA, which individually was about reducing very small levels of errors. Hugo was the first design to get all of this upgrade, and when I first heard it, I was immensely surprised - where did that SQ come from? I knew it was going to sound better, but the major difference was the musicality - the way one could hear complex rhythms with ease, the timbre variations on each instrument, the way in which an individual sound could leap out from a recording - all this performance was unexpected, and it all contributes to Hugo's musicality. Hugo has a bizarre ability to tell you what is wrong about a recording - you easily hear master tape hiss, poor EQ, distortion on instruments etc - but it has this almost magical ability to communicate the musicality of the original recording. I listen a lot to BBC Radio 3, when they often play archive recordings - and you can hear the noise and distortion, but somehow you connect to the original music too.
 
Hugo was a project I designed simply for fun - I wanted something that would give me high-end SQ for when I was on planes or in hotel rooms as being a silicon audio chip consultant I spend a lot of time away. I never expected it would have such an affect in terms of musicality, nor had I expected the near universal acclaim that it has had. Indeed, in my wildest imagination I would have never dreamed that recording studios would be using Hugo to master recordings with.
 
So the article of faith - make no assumptions about what is audible or not and finding the myriad of distortions and aberrations, then scientifically reducing them, to me has paid off immensely in musical terms.
 
Rob        
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 8:05 AM Post #9,550 of 15,694
TT balanced OP is for driving balanced power amps directly.

Don't get me drawn into the pros and cons of balanced drive for headphones!

Rob 

Thanks

I get that manufacturers have to cater for the market. My angle was more why dual xlrs rather than mini 4-pin, rather than the merits of balanced headphone signals
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 8:32 AM Post #9,551 of 15,694
That sums it up nicely rob.

Will the TT be able to drive a lot of different hp? Some with higher wattage demands.
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 8:48 AM Post #9,553 of 15,694
Isolates the power supply, read robs post above on music acuity and transparency.
 
Feb 2, 2015 at 9:55 AM Post #9,554 of 15,694
The balanced OP in TT is a fully floating cross coupled balanced design with offset trim that takes the ground reference and the line out from the Hugo. So both +ve and -ve OP's are isolated from the DAC and fully differential.
 
The reason TT is battery is this guarantees isolation noise from the mains supply. The TT project started in Feb 2014; at that time, we were not sure how much of the Hugo magic was down to the batteries, so the decision was made to go for the guaranteed low risk approach - use the batteries. The 2 Qute program started much later, and its only a few weeks ago that I have confirmed that we can get battery sound quality by the use of a lot more RF filtering and regulation. So if TT was designed today, I would go for no batteries, haven proven it can be made to sound identical.
 
TT can give a bit more power than Hugo, due to the beefed up OP stage and bigger batteries and the super caps.
 
The issue of balanced drive is more complex, as it has pros and cons.
 
The pros are:
1. Even order distortion reduced.
2. Common mode noise reduced - can't see how this would benefit HP though.
3. More OP voltage drive.
 
 
The cons are:
1. Doubled up the circuitry, so less transparency (signal goes through twice the analogue components).
2. Reduced damping factor as two times OP impedance.
 
So single ended can be made more transparent, but you have to work harder to reduce OP stage distortion.
My experience with power amp design is that balanced is worse, unless you really need the power.
 
Rob
 

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