Cayin i5 Lossless Android DAP with AKM4490 DAC supporting 32/384 PCM + 64/128 DSD
Feb 22, 2017 at 11:45 PM Post #2,851 of 3,742
After a detail study on Tidal operation at i5, we have narrowed down the stuttering issue as a combination of buffering and optimization for multi-core processing (I hope I get the terminology right)

We (Cayin and HiBy) have noticed that the decoding function of Tidal has a very short term buffer and it will only deploy a single core of the CPU, we suspect this is a special consideration to minimize the hardware requirements so that Tidal is compatible with a wider range of mobile devices. This special decoding approach will not impose any issue to regular streaming service but when you go into HiFi quality service, be it streaming or off-lined, the problem started to surface. When the CPU run out of gas (due to high processing load of decoding lossless music in single core) and the buffer run out quickly (due to the larger data amount per time interval when compare to normal streaming service) , stuttering occurred.

It is difficult to illustrate the memory buffer of an app in action, but we can check out the CPU utilization real-time on Android device by using system tools such as CPU Float and PVR Monitor, both system app are available in Google Play. The CPU Float will allow us to check out the CPU speed (core frequency) while the PVR monitor will display the loading of CPU (in %) through a real-time histogram. The CPU utilization is a function of CPU speed x CPU loading

To illustrate the function of these tools, let’s play a Hi-Res file at 24Bit/192kHz:



https://youtu.be/GHmAZzNirKY​

The CPU Float is positioned at the top right corner of i5, the CPU of i5 is Leadcore LC1813 Quad-core, so there should be FOUR numbers showing the current frequency of each core. The HiBy Music Player is using TWO cores during decoding, and you can see they are running at around 500kHz, which is well within the 1.2GHz capacity of the CPU. The PVR Monitor is located right below the CPU Float window, unfortunately effect is not so obviously, you have to really focus otherwise you won’t see the histogram moving up and down illustrating the CPU loading in %. For most of the time, the two CPU core are below 50% (histogram bar in green), with occasional reaching higher loading (histogram bar in red). i5 can playback the complete 24Bit/192kHz Hi-Res music file smoothly.

The second video clip will illustrate Tidal app in Cayin i5 playback Hi-Fi offline music at HiFi quality.



https://youtu.be/T5gkQeoZLvM​

First of all the numbers from CPU Float suggested that the CPU of i5 is operated at a much higher speed, and the Leadcore LC1813 has a unique feature that when one core hit maximum speed (displayed as 988 in the CPU Float reading), all four core will be linked and go into full speed, that’s why the reading on the CPU Float appears to be very busy at all time.

The PVR Monitor, on the other hand, has a very different pattern from the native HiBy Music Player. The Tidal app has a strong tendency to use one core at a time only, and will switch core “randomly”. We can notice the CPU loading will stay at full load (red histogram) very often for 1-2 sec before it come down or switch to another core. The problem is only one core will reaching full load while the other three core are either idle or at very low loading. When the CPU fail to satisfy the Tidal app even when one particular core is pushed to full speed and full load, stuttering occurred (30 sec, 38sec, 2m20sec, 2m 25sec)

In order to extend battery duration and reduce operation temperature, the i5 CPU were set to operate in econ mode. Since we have noticed the high CPU utilization is part of the issue, so we have hypothesized that changing CPU to higher performance setting might resolve the issue partially. This is what we are going to do in the third video clip. In this attempt, all four cores of the CPU are locked at full speed:



https://youtu.be/0BBCHG1M4p4​

As you can see the readings from CPU Float are stabled at 988 on all four cores, but the PVR monitor still flashing red most of the time, they probably stay in the same core slightly longer, but since the loading remain “red” most of the time, it doesn’t improve the stuttering issues and in fact we can hear more stuttering then the previous setting. (41 sec, 46 sec, 1min 23 sec, 1 min 26 sec, 2min 16 sec, 2min 27 sec)

At this stage, we have exhausted our means to optimize the i5 player for the Tidal App. Maybe a faster CPU will sweep the problem under the carpet; or maybe changing the CPU will provide better synergy with Tidal’s decoding algorithm; or maybe Tidal will issue a new version that will optimized their decoding process with two cores concurrently. Cayin has no option but to confirm that the i5 DAP does not support the current HiFi decoding algorithm of Tidal perfectly.

From what we have demonstrated, the issue has nothing to do with streaming, and we are looking forward to Tidal’s new decoding algorithm that will optimize for multi-core CPU. While Cayin has pre-installed Google Play in the i5 DAP, we have declared that being a customized Android device, i5 might not be compatible with each and every app on the Google Play. It is most unfortunate that i5 has compatibility issue with part of the Tidal app but “accidents” as such is expected and declared in advance.

I hope this clarification does not downgrade i5 DAP to unsatisfactory or bad quality suddenly. The i5 is still one of the best sounding and most versatile DAP in the sub-$500 market. I believe clear cut explanation at this level is rare among DAP developers. In fact the common practice probably is to remain silent and roll out a mkII product ASAP. Cayin takes a different approach by putting user satisfactory and transparent to our customer at high priority.

Since I have a deadline to meet tomorrow, (English content for version 2.2 firmware), please pardon me for disappearing for two more days before I come back to follow up all the questions and issues related to i5 DAP recently.

PS: I hope the Youtube clips will survive, our previous upload has been “silent” because of copyright issue. Youtube is very strict on music copyright and anything longer then 30sec will face complain or silent treatment within days, or even hours.
Dear Andy, thanks for your detailed report on the Tidal stuttering problem. I just wonder why the same problem does not occur when using mobile (including those with multiple core CPU) to play Tidal in Hi-fi quality.
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 3:41 AM Post #2,852 of 3,742

Here's the reply I received from Tidal on the subject of stuttering. The suggestion is that the problem may lie in the DNS settings on the i5 and that it could be resolved by using Google public DNS. I know how to do this on my Mac but I don't know if it's possible on the i5. Any ideas anyone?
 
 
TIDAL Support [KevinMN] (TIDAL)
Feb 21, 3:37 PM EST 

Hello Simon,

Based on the information you provided, this issue may be resolved by making some adjustments to your device in question. 
Please change the DNS settings on your device by following this guide:
https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/using?hl=en

If you continue to have problems, please let me know.

Best Regards,

Kevin - Technical Support Specialist
TIDAL Member Support




 
Feb 23, 2017 at 9:21 AM Post #2,854 of 3,742
 
Here's the reply I received from Tidal on the subject of stuttering. The suggestion is that the problem may lie in the DNS settings on the i5 and that it could be resolved by using Google public DNS. I know how to do this on my Mac but I don't know if it's possible on the i5. Any ideas anyone?
 
TIDAL Support [KevinMN] (TIDAL)
Feb 21, 3:37 PM EST 

Hello Simon,

Based on the information you provided, this issue may be resolved by making some adjustments to your device in question. 
Please change the DNS settings on your device by following this guide:
https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/using?hl=en

If you continue to have problems, please let me know.

Best Regards,

Kevin - Technical Support Specialist
TIDAL Member Support




I can't image how a change in DNS setting could affect the distribution of work between cpu cores...
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 9:24 AM Post #2,855 of 3,742
Dear Andy, thanks for your detailed report on the Tidal stuttering problem. I just wonder why the same problem does not occur when using mobile (including those with multiple core CPU) to play Tidal in Hi-fi quality.


In all probability because the smartphone you're using has much better per-core performance than the i5.
Fun fact: the i5's CPU max out at 1.2GHz while smartphones comparable in price and vintage may have clock speed well beyond double this and greater instructions per clock performance to boot.

Then again... these days to make a decent Android DAP, it is expected that
1. the device perform Android functions and run general Android programs snappily (requiring a decent amount of CPU and RAM)
2. the Android audio stack be hacked to allow full-time bit-perfect audio from the system audio player (requiring Android system engineering at a level where even official Google / AOSP programmers fear to tread)
3. ... while not breaking compatibility with usual Play Store apps
4. ... all while providing audio hardware and sound quality that's head and shoulders above that of smartphones
5. ... at the price of a mid-to-high-tier regular smartphone, but with admittedly much lower economy of scale

It's not easy being a premium DAP designer! :wink: Apparently this Tidal issue tells us we need to pick an even more powerful CPU next time, even if the current one is demonstrably entirely capable of decoding hi-res far in excess of that offered by Tidal--if the code were better optimized... :xf_eek:

Here's the reply I received from Tidal on the subject of stuttering. The suggestion is that the problem may lie in the DNS settings on the i5 and that it could be resolved by using Google public DNS. I know how to do this on my Mac but I don't know if it's possible on the i5. Any ideas anyone?
 

 






[COLOR=1B1D1E]TIDAL Support [KevinMN] (TIDAL)
[tr]

Feb 21, 3:37 PM EST 




Hello Simon,



Based on the information you provided, this issue may be resolved by making some adjustments to your device in question. 

Please change the DNS settings on your device by following this guide:
https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/using?hl=en



If you continue to have problems, please let me know.



Best Regards,



Kevin - Technical Support Specialist

TIDAL Member Support







[/tr]
[/color]


Did you tell them the part where we completed all tests for stuttering during HiFi playback in *offline* mode? :xf_eek:

It's embarrassing that we have to have you ask on our behalf but the silence from Tidal towards Andy is deafening... :xf_eek:

Best regards,
Joseph Yeung
HiBy Music representative
 
HiBy Stay updated on HiBy at their facebook, website or email (icons below). Stay updated on HiBy at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/hibycom https://store.hiby.com/ service@hiby.com
Feb 23, 2017 at 9:32 AM Post #2,856 of 3,742
  My thoughts are up...
 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/cayin-i5/reviews/18080

 
Reading this review I understand that two cables (a USB-C one, and another to connect the dap to an external amplfier) are supposed to be included in the i5 package, but in mine I found only the USB-C one, together with a microusb <-> USB-C adapter.
Is something changed meanwhile in the packaging? 
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 9:48 AM Post #2,857 of 3,742
   
Reading this review I understand that two cables (a USB-C one, and another to connect the dap to an external amplfier) are supposed to be included in the i5 package, but in mine I found only the USB-C one, together with a microusb <-> USB-C adapter.
Is something changed meanwhile in the packaging? 

I edited the change my apologies, you are correct. The other cable is mine I had and still have as I have been on USB-C for a while. Thank you for pointing this out.
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 12:11 PM Post #2,858 of 3,742
Dear Andy, thanks for your detailed report on the Tidal stuttering problem. I just wonder why the same problem does not occur when using mobile (including those with multiple core CPU) to play Tidal in Hi-fi quality.


I have stated THREE potential solution to the problems identified:

Maybe a faster CPU will sweep the problem under the carpet; or maybe changing the CPU will provide better synergy with Tidal’s decoding algorithm; or maybe Tidal will issue a new version that will optimized their decoding process with two cores concurrently.


So a significantly faster CPU (in terms of single core performance) might be able to execute the Tidal decoding algorithm at a lower CPU loading, and avoided the stuttering issue.

While the i5 CPU can decode 24bit 192kHz PCM file easily (at half speed and half loaded), the processing power of the Leadcore LC1813 is higher a power house when compare to the processing power of the CPU in current mobile phones. In fact, one of the earliest i5 review in HeadGear has reported that in AnTuTu i5 scores [COLOR=FF00AA]14,605 [/COLOR]points. For the record, Cayin i5 was available in China since June 2016, and to the International market on July 2016. The performance of mobile phones at that time are as follow:



So that explained why Tidal works alright with mobile phones but is having problem with audiophile products.
 
Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
http://en.cayin.cn/
Feb 23, 2017 at 12:30 PM Post #2,859 of 3,742
Here's the reply I received from Tidal on the subject of stuttering. The suggestion is that the problem may lie in the DNS settings on the i5 and that it could be resolved by using Google public DNS. I know how to do this on my Mac but I don't know if it's possible on the i5. Any ideas anyone?
 

[COLOR=1B1D1E]TIDAL Support [KevinMN] (TIDAL)
[tr]

Feb 21, 3:37 PM EST 




Hello Simon,



Based on the information you provided, this issue may be resolved by making some adjustments to your device in question. 

Please change the DNS settings on your device by following this guide:
https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/using?hl=en



If you continue to have problems, please let me know.



Best Regards,



Kevin - Technical Support Specialist

TIDAL Member Support







[/tr]
[/color]


We have conducted multiple test on the Tidal Stuttering issue at both online and offline conditions, and the results are very similar. While the DNS setting "might" affect the streaming performance, but it certainly won't affect the offline playback of Tidal download filed. In fact, the video that illustrate the Tidal stuttering issues are all recorded in offline mode, and the stuttering problem is noticeable, so I am not convinced that DNS setting is causing the problem.
 
Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
http://en.cayin.cn/
Feb 23, 2017 at 2:04 PM Post #2,860 of 3,742
In all probability because the smartphone you're using has much better per-core performance than the i5.
Fun fact: the i5's CPU max out at 1.2GHz while smartphones comparable in price and vintage may have clock speed well beyond double this and greater instructions per clock performance to boot.

Then again... these days to make a decent Android DAP, it is expected that
1. the device perform Android functions and run general Android programs snappily (requiring a decent amount of CPU and RAM)
2. the Android audio stack be hacked to allow full-time bit-perfect audio from the system audio player (requiring Android system engineering at a level where even official Google / AOSP programmers fear to tread)
3. ... while not breaking compatibility with usual Play Store apps
4. ... all while providing audio hardware and sound quality that's head and shoulders above that of smartphones
5. ... at the price of a mid-to-high-tier regular smartphone, but with admittedly much lower economy of scale

It's not easy being a premium DAP designer! :wink: Apparently this Tidal issue tells us we need to pick an even more powerful CPU next time, even if the current one is demonstrably entirely capable of decoding hi-res far in excess of that offered by Tidal--if the code were better optimized... :xf_eek:
Did you tell them the part where we completed all tests for stuttering during HiFi playback in *offline* mode? :xf_eek:

It's embarrassing that we have to have you ask on our behalf but the silence from Tidal towards Andy is deafening... :xf_eek:

Best regards,
Joseph Yeung
HiBy Music representative


I would like to extend a warm welcome to Joe. I suppose everyone who has been paying attention to DAP products in HeadFi forum for more then two years will definitely know "the" Joe Bloggs, and very likely has cross path with him previously. Joe has joined the HiBy Music team several months ago and have contributed to the i5 DAP significantly, he is the master mind who trouble shoot the Single-core decoding pattern of Tidal app., and I am truly honored to have a colleague and partner that is experienced and competence at this level.

I hope Joe will hang around with the i5 community down the road, with his HeadFi background and professional connection with HiBy Music, he sure will be a irreplaceable asset to the online i5 community.
 
Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
http://en.cayin.cn/
Feb 23, 2017 at 2:41 PM Post #2,861 of 3,742


A very informative review, and the review probably reflects the opinion of a large group of mid-tie users who are considering Android DAP as their preferred option nowadays.

Since a lot of HeadFier are considering i5 DAP but they have a hard time finding a demo before they commit to it, so I think its important to provide feedback and reviews from a wide range of perspective, and review with a critical mind certainly has an important role in the process, especially when this come from a first-hand owner of the DAP.

Regarding the Tidal issue, the WiFi capability of i5 DAP probably is not the major concern as many have expected. May I suggest you check out our latest explanation on the stuttering issue?

Once again, thank you very much for taking your time to write up such a comprehensive review for our DAP. I hope our next product will achieve a higher standard and offer higher level of satisfaction to our customer, but for the meantime, I hope you'll hang on with the i5 for a bit longer, and continue to contribute in this thread, we need more owners to get involved in the long run. :beerchug:
 
Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
http://en.cayin.cn/
Feb 23, 2017 at 2:56 PM Post #2,862 of 3,742
Wow, Cayin and the Cayin user community is quite lucky to have both Andy, and as a software partner, Joe Bloggs, involved.
 
I did some consulting work with a computer audio related firm.  We did try to work with Tidal on something, and it was akin to pulling teeth.  So I can really empathize with Cayin on that.
 
I suppose the good news is that once HiBy and its hardware partners crack the code on Android for hifi; that knowledge base will be portable to future hardware.
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 4:03 PM Post #2,863 of 3,742
  Wow, Cayin and the Cayin user community is quite lucky to have both Andy, and as a software partner, Joe Bloggs, involved.
 
I did some consulting work with a computer audio related firm.  We did try to work with Tidal on something, and it was akin to pulling teeth.  So I can really empathize with Cayin on that.
 
I suppose the good news is that once HiBy and its hardware partners crack the code on Android for hifi; that knowledge base will be portable to future hardware.

See knowing this makes me want to cancel my Tidal subscription. It is expensive to start with, and knowing they really don't want to work with others to improve the end user experience just rubs me the wrong way.
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 10:52 PM Post #2,864 of 3,742
Dear Andy, after upgraded to Firmware 2.2, I tried to connect i5 to my DAC through USB cable.  My DAC is Cambridge Audio 851N which is also a network streamer.  However, the DAC got no signal after the connection, but it works properly with USB connections with other devices (including my mobile).  I have also followed the instructions (i.e. turn on i5 before plugging in USB cable and connect the player to the DAC) and tried all the settings in i5.
 
Any advice?
 
Feb 23, 2017 at 11:10 PM Post #2,865 of 3,742
Does the i5 Bluetooth work for the cars bluetooth?
 

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