[Benny-x]

I've known about the adaptors, but they're not an option here. Thanks for the idea, but I really want to stick to balanced on a application level, not an aesthetic one. Every piece of gear I now have is balanced, not by connection type, but by design.

 

[analogsurviver]

I've known about the adaptors, but they're not an option here. Thanks for the idea, but I really want to stick to balanced on a application level, not an aesthetic one. Every piece of gear I now have is balanced, not by connection type, but by design.

No such thing as a vintage balanced receivers.
 
Balanced started appearing in consumer high end audio separates years after receivers fell out of vogue.
 
There might be some lone wolfs that are internally balanced and only have unbalanced RCA inputs - but that would drive the cost up so much to be seriously overpriced relative to single ended competition. Possible yes, likely no.
 
Balanced is WAAAY overrated for consumer audio. Think about the fact that none of the true measurement microphones do not use balanced connections - XLR is there unheard of. 

 

[parbaked]

I've known about the adaptors, but they're not an option here. Thanks for the idea, but I really want to stick to balanced on a application level, not an aesthetic one. Every piece of gear I now have is balanced, not by connection type, but by design.

Then forget about vintage equipment which is from an era that predates the brilliant idea to sell 'balanced' gear to audiophiles...

 

[jnorris]

  So, my hopeful, soon to be Vintage Brethern, I've been pointed here in hopes of getting some help 

 
I've always liked the look and sound of Pioneer's 1975-85 series amps, especially the Fluoroscan series, and I've been itching to get my own. But...
 
I have painstakingly built and now run an end to end balanced system, I'd like to extend that to a vintage amp if I could. I'm not totally of the camp that balanced sounds better, I've just built around the idea and I like the connectors   I also like the quality of the Mogami or Canare cables and trust in what I'm getting from them vs. the minefield of RCA connectors and audiophile cabling. 
 
So, what I'm looking for is a vintage amp of good sound that can be fed with balanced, 3pin XLR cables from my DAC or PRE. The output of the amp can be the normal red/black speaker taps, no issues there. I'm just looking for balanced inputs. 
 
Now the other idea I've wondered about is "balancing" the inputs of a Pioneer SA-9800 manually. Since the amp itself has a balanced topology and balanced outputs, it couldn't be that hard to add properly configured 3pin XLR inputs and pull out a pair or two of the RCA inputs. 
 
So, if anyone can help me find a balanced input vintage amp, it'd be greatly appreciated. Or if anyone knows where I could go to look into balancing an amp, please point me there  Hopefully I'll be joining your ranks soon enough

I hate to burst your bubble, but if you're that into audio, the consumer-based Pioneer stuff is just not that good.  The line amps are noisy, the phono sections even noisier, and the sound quality tends to be strident and 2 dimensional.  If you're into their looks I can't argue there - they were striking looking.  

 

[PhoenixG]

  I hate to burst your bubble, but if you're that into audio, the consumer-based Pioneer stuff is just not that good.  The line amps are noisy, the phono sections even noisier, and the sound quality tends to be strident and 2 dimensional.  If you're into their looks I can't argue there - they were striking looking.  

Shots fired. The man is looking at one of their TOTL amplifiers. It's like telling the man climbing Everest that Nepal is an average of 7000 FT up. He's looking for the exceptional unit.
 
I'm not sure if there is a benefit to retrofitting a balanced input onto a device that wasn't made for it. Unless you're 100% sure the device was made a certain way or are willing to add the flipping/adding circuitry on to it, you might be better off with an adaptor or RCA input. You can probably find an adaptor that does more than just pulling off the + lead and preserves the qualities you're looking for.

 

[analogsurviver]

As a "collateral damage" ( I was looking for measurements of Beveridge 2SW loudspeaker, which was measured as having 0.03% THD over much of its frequency range close to max output - with a microphone in an anechoic chamber ) I stumbled upon these :
 
http://www.annuarioaudio.it/vintage-hi-fi/test-recensioni-prove/stereoplay-a/
 
There are vintage receivers and amplifiers tested, sometimes even X vs Y :
 
http://www.annuarioaudio.it/vintage-hi-fi/test-recensioni-prove/stereoplay-s/
 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/81737880/stereoplay-k/kenwood-ka-7100-sansui-au-517.pdf
 
There is a nice selection of vintage audio measurements - among other things, one of the very few measurements on Transcriptors Vestigal tonearm ( "hidden" in report on ADC Super XLM II  cartridge ).

 

[jnorris]

Shame I can't read Italian - I would have been interested in reading the Shure V15III article (I have the V15IV), and the Pioneer SA-8500II (which has been relegated to storage under the ottoman).  I'm sure there are other interesting articles there!
 
As for the the 9800 being TOTL...back then TOTL wasn't necessarily so much about sound quality as it was watts/channel, physical size and bells and whistles (more switches, more controls, more options).  Audiophile snobbery aside, there was a reason why even down-to-earth audio magazines like Sensible Sound chose to ignore the Japanese mass-market product, although their high end products (Pioneer Elite - not the SA series, and Kenwood's Accuphases) were sometimes well regarded.
 
I also agree that there will probably be no improvement found by adding balanced adapters to the Pioneer, and it may also impact the sound negatively

 

[Luckbad]

  Shame I can't read Italian - I would have been interested in reading the Shure V15III article (I have the V15IV), and the Pioneer SA-8500II (which has been relegated to storage under the ottoman).  I'm sure there are other interesting articles there!
 
As for the the 9800 being TOTL...back then TOTL wasn't necessarily so much about sound quality as it was watts/channel, physical size and bells and whistles (more switches, more controls, more options).  Audiophile snobbery aside, there was a reason why even down-to-earth audio magazines like Sensible Sound chose to ignore the Japanese mass-market product, although their high end products (Pioneer Elite - not the SA series, and Kenwood's Accuphases) were sometimes well regarded.
 
I also agree that there will probably be no improvement found by adding balanced adapters to the Pioneer, and it may also impact the sound negatively

 
Pioneer SA-8500 II under the ottoman? What?! Send it here! XOXO

 

[analogsurviver]

  Shame I can't read Italian - I would have been interested in reading the Shure V15III article (I have the V15IV), and the Pioneer SA-8500II (which has been relegated to storage under the ottoman).  I'm sure there are other interesting articles there!
 
As for the the 9800 being TOTL...back then TOTL wasn't necessarily so much about sound quality as it was watts/channel, physical size and bells and whistles (more switches, more controls, more options).  Audiophile snobbery aside, there was a reason why even down-to-earth audio magazines like Sensible Sound chose to ignore the Japanese mass-market product, although their high end products (Pioneer Elite - not the SA series, and Kenwood's Accuphases) were sometimes well regarded.
 
I also agree that there will probably be no improvement found by adding balanced adapters to the Pioneer, and it may also impact the sound negatively

Well, reading measurements does not require (much) Italian - a graph is a graph.
 
A particularly detailed report on Shure V15 IV is here : http://www.suono.it/La-rivista/Archivio/(pub)/56728
( I still have it in paper ! ) Too bad there are no (at least to my knowledge ) tests from Suono available online.

 

[jnorris]

   
Pioneer SA-8500 II under the ottoman? What?! Send it here! XOXO

I tried to like it - I really did.  I have the 8500II, a 6500 that was modified to provide preamp out / main amp in, and an Advent 300.  Using only the amp sections of each to drive headphones, with either a Sumo Athena or Parasound PHP-850 preamp.  Time after time the Advent sounded more musical, open and natural than both Pioneers.  All three sounded like crap when their preamps are in the circuit.
 
Would I prefer the aesthetic of the Pioneer 8500II in my audio rack over that of the Advent?  You betcha!  But the lowly Advent sounds better.

 

[jnorris]

  Well, reading measurements does not require (much) Italian - a graph is a graph.
 
A particularly detailed report on Shure V15 IV is here : http://www.suono.it/La-rivista/Archivio/(pub)/56728
( I still have it in paper ! ) Too bad there are no (at least to my knowledge ) tests from Suono available online.

Not a big fan of graphs - they pretty much all look the same.  I much prefer commentary.  Preferably by a reviewer with whom I am familiar.  Looks like an excellent magazine though!

 

[analogsurviver]

  Not a big fan of graphs - they pretty much all look the same.  I much prefer commentary.  Preferably by a reviewer with whom I am familiar.  Looks like an excellent magazine though!

Well, Italian audio press in those days was perhaps the best possible mix between objective (measurements) and subjective commentary available anywhere. They would translate the The Absolute Sound review of a particular piece of audio gear - followed by, with a month or two delay, their own take both on measurements and listening on the same piece of gear. What is of particular value today is the fact that things were being measured under the very same conditions for years, if not decades - and their results are still valid today. And those are those "boring, look preetty much the same " graphs

 ...
 
And they did cover Japanese gear, receivers included, that was largely ignored by the UK and US audio press.

 

[jnorris]

My issue with graphs is that very often - and especially with transducers - they don't really give a good idea of how a device sounds in real-world conditions.  It may measure near perfectly but be unable to reproduce many different instruments playing at the same time in such a way as to allow the listener to follow a single instrument.  I've seen graphs of equipment that I own that do not represent in any way their actual sound. 
Back in the day, Peter Moncrieff used to publish frequency response and square wave response graphs for phono cartridges.  The interesting thing was that the top of the square wave was actually a backwards frequency response graph in miniature - high frequencies on the left and bass on the right.  This little graph gave a better idea of the sound of the device than the regular graphs in that it showed high frequency response, ringing and overshoot and low frequency roll-off.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
My issue with graphs is that very often - and especially with transducers - they don't really give a good idea of how a device sounds in real-world conditions.  It may measure near perfectly but be unable to reproduce many different instruments playing at the same time in such a way as to allow the listener to follow a single instrument.  I've seen graphs of equipment that I own that do not represent in any way their actual sound. 
Back in the day, Peter Moncrieff used to publish frequency response and square wave response graphs for phono cartridges.  The interesting thing was that the top of the square wave was actually a backwards frequency response graph in miniature - high frequencies on the left and bass on the right.  This little graph gave a better idea of the sound of the device than the regular graphs in that it showed high frequency response, ringing and overshoot and low frequency roll-off.

Same blues here - but still I find graphs useful.
 
I miss those days Peter Moncrieff has been publishing good stuff ... - his phono cartridge reviews still are unmatched anywhere.

 

[jnorris]

  Same blues here - but still I find graphs useful.
 
I miss those days Peter Moncrieff has been publishing good stuff ... - his phono cartridge reviews still are unmatched anywhere.

I still have the big, bound collection of phono cartridge reviews that he put out way back when, as well as a large-ish collection of the IAR newsletters - published in black font on red stock to prevent copying.  I remember reading his stuff and wondering how he got around with that immense ego.  Remember when he challenged the audio industry by saying that he could correctly distinguish between wires 100% of the time in a blind A/B test even with his ears stuffed with cotton?  Of course, this insinuated that anyone who couldn't was a hack.