[Storydog]

I have my T 90 since December 2015, and no problems with slider adjustment so far.
Material qualitiy and optical condtion are still very good or in vinyl term - near mint.

Playtime in month so five till seven hours - lacking time and a few other headphones.
It reveals still on very good records little weaknesses. And the famous Beyer Peak is unknown to me, because of higher output impedance of my hifi amplifiers, maybe it is on my ears, too. In single cases bass seems stronger than normal. Because the output impedance?

 

[Storydog]

I have my T 90 since December 2015, and no problems with slider adjustment so far.
Material qualitiy and optical condtion are still very good or in vinyl term - near mint.

Playtime in month so five till seven hours - lacking time and a few other headphones.
It reveals still on very good records little weaknesses. And the famous Beyer Peak is unknown to me, because of higher output impedance of my hifi amplifiers, maybe it is on my ears, too. In single cases bass seems stronger than normal. Because the output impedance?

 

[pp312]

Many, many thanks for that message, Storydog.

 

[adydula]

u posted the same thing 4 times???

 

[terry parr]

I have my T 90 since December 2015, and no problems with slider adjustment so far.
Material qualitiy and optical condtion are still very good or in vinyl term - near mint.

Playtime in month so five till seven hours - lacking time and a few other headphones.
It reveals still on very good records little weaknesses. And the famous Beyer Peak is unknown to me, because of higher output impedance of my hifi amplifiers, maybe it is on my ears, too. In single cases bass seems stronger than normal. Because the output impedance?

The slider adjustment stays in place when the headphones are on my head, so as long as they don't start slipping once I put the headphones on, then this won't be an issue.
I'm not hearing "the famous beyer peak", either.
As far as using different amps, I've noticed that when I switched to a Technics SA-500 amp, the bass (and other low frequencies) became a bit more focused (while still retaining the deep extension and impact), where on the SONY STR-6055, the low frequencies tended to want to get a bit more diffuse-sounding, compared to the more controlled way that the Technics amp is delivering the bass). So, I can hear a difference in the T90, in just switching between these two amps.

 

[terry parr]

u posted the same thing 4 times???

He wanted to make sure everybody heard him, Alex.

 

[pp312]

u posted the same thing 4 times???

Six by my count. Don't shortchange a fellow enthusiast.

 

[adydula]

Terry...thats what I would expect...unless you can get a schematic of the head amp part of the receivers we can only guess or just do listening sessions and see what happens.

I have an Frank Van Alstine pre-amp with a headphone output and its stellar. I asked Frank a few times if he would share the circuit with me, asking about output impedance and damping etc..
It turns out that there is an op amp involved and some magic....but its similar to many of the DIY SS amps using OPA 1688's and other op amps...simple design, but more than just a dropping resistor.

If you ever get the chance try a discrete dac/amp. There are several combos that are low cost and really great "sounding" or should I say "not sounding" ....lol.

JDS has an Element and there is the O2/ODAC combo that works well too.

Alex

 

[Storydog]

Dont want to post fourtimes. I was in Internet with my old computer. And he may was handicapped. I could not post and it was like a hard resistance when I push the button "Post Reply" .
But my new one is going on the start.

There was a graphic I beiieve on innerfidelity.com where the impedance course(right term?) is on a certain frequence in deeps higher increasing, that and a higher output impdeance makes the bass in some cases stronger, may I be right?

 

[Storydog]

So I have found it quickly:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT90.pdf

Look at graphic "Electrical Impedance" below 1000 Hz. But in reality is it not so dramatically. Like written in some cases I hear it.
The quality of bass frequenz is then different. Sometimes the precise bass stays, sometimes he is weaker.
Curious what difference brings a headphone amp(so price range 250 - 400 €) to my experience so far made with older hifi amps.

 

[terry parr]

Terry...thats what I would expect...unless you can get a schematic of the head amp part of the receivers we can only guess or just do listening sessions and see what happens.

I have an Frank Van Alstine pre-amp with a headphone output and its stellar. I asked Frank a few times if he would share the circuit with me, asking about output impedance and damping etc..
It turns out that there is an op amp involved and some magic....but its similar to many of the DIY SS amps using OPA 1688's and other op amps...simple design, but more than just a dropping resistor.

If you ever get the chance try a discrete dac/amp. There are several combos that are low cost and really great "sounding" or should I say "not sounding" ....lol.

JDS has an Element and there is the O2/ODAC combo that works well too.

Alex

Look at where my tone control settings are on this receiver, Alex! Even though I don't have either of the "boost" circuits engaged, look at where that treble knob is sitting. (And for a headphone that has a reputation for being "bright!"). And look at where that bass knob is.
I've tried dialing back both the bass and treble controls, and not having the "boost" circuits on (in order to have everything set as "flat"), but I prefer the settings to be the way they are pictured. With the tone controls in the "flat" position (in other words, no tone controls used) the sound out of this amp reminds me of a budget NAD amplifier (the C320 BEE, I believe) I had at one time, years ago. The sound was lackluster, lacked punch and dynamics. The amp didn't do a good job of "getting out of the way". It was a bottleneck to the sound that prevented me from enjoying the music.

I'm not quite the purist that you are, Alex (who sees amplification as strictly that. A way to amplify or strengthen the signal. Straight wire, with gain). I want the amplifier to give me the option of adjusting the sound a bit, (you could call that "coloring" the sound, if you want). If slightly adjusting the treble or bass has me "coloring" the sound, then I guess that's what I'm doing.

Now, granted that these tone controls may not be sitting where they are now, after this unit gets a good servicing (which will include replacement of the caps and the output transistors).

A purist would say, "hear the music the way (the artist / recording engineer / mixing specialist / mastering engineer) intended." To me, this is like sitting down at a restaurant and telling the waiter, "tell the chef to prepare something that he thinks I might like." I might like the basic ingredients of the entrée, (I might like the song that the artist created) but even though the chef may have graduated from a world-renowned culinary institute, I still might not like his (over-use, in my opinion) of certain seasonings or (the bass might be just a bit too much on this track, or album).

That's the best analogy I can come up, with, Alex. I don't want to give up the option of at least limited control of the music as it reaches my ears.

We're both huge music fans Alex, and we both appreciate well-recorded material. We're "fellow-travelers", as it were. But, on this issue, (as far as wanting to tweak original source material, or having an amplifier "color" the sound) we disagree, I think.

 

[adydula]

Hey Terry....but we may disagree but in a good way...in positive terms !

Wow...seeing your bass and treble controls to me is telling me something is not right here....if I turn my tone controls like this on my receivers they sound terrible, bass is boomy and bloated etc...
treble would be really bad as well.

Are you playing cds from a cd/dvd player into the aux inputs on the receiver, it looks like thats what the selector is set to.

Did you have to have the AKG's set this way as well ??

IMO if all things in the chain or reproduction are "ok" then I wouldnt think it would take this much bass or treble boost to make the cans sound good.

Alex
(yes we are fellow-travelers, and friends regardless of our personal preferences..its what make this hobby interesting!).
:>)

 

[terry parr]

This is pretty much my "default" setting on the Technics receiver. And, no. The bass doesn't get muddy and bloated and blurry as you adjust this control to increase the bass (unlike most AVR receivers that I've heard. Most of those do that). On those units, the tone controls should be labeled "boom" and "hiss." On this unit, you simply get more palpable low-end (say, bass drum hits), while the bass guitar's sound quality still remains focused, distinct and clean, though you'll probably hear a bit more texture within the bass line. Notice, though that I don't have the "Low Boost" engaged, or the "Loudness" switch engaged, either. With those switches set to neutral and out of the picture, the difference that the bass and treble controls account for aren't as dramatic. It's more of a gradual shading. The way I have everything else set, the tone controls here are a more subtle tweaking and they affect the sound by small degrees. In this mode (with neither the "Low Boost" or "Loudness" on) it's a fine-tuning and not a crude, "go from a flat response to a boomy, "pump-up the volume / nightclub sound" with a small turn of the wrist" type of adjustment. It really is a fairly refined adjustment and not just a gimmick on this unit.

On the SONY unit, I still have the treble set fairly high, but the bass control is dialed-back, since on this receiver if you try to bring a little too much bass, it begins to smear and blur. So, if you want to keep the bass "clean" (I do) you can't get too happy with that bass dial on the SONY.



Talking about gimmicks, try adjusting the sound of one of those AVR receivers that don't have tone control dials but rather push buttons that allow you to switch from "pop" to "jazz" to "club". I tried a YAMAHA unit that had this feature and the sound of the music itself was absolutely horrible, and toggling between these settings just made me shake my head as I heard for myself just how terrible this gimmick was implemented and I remember thinking that the engineers responsible for such a piss-poor piece of equipment should all be shot at the next sunrise. (Without a cigarette).

I listened to a few modern AVR receivers years ago (from ANTHEM, and MARANTZ. Those two come immediately to mind). But, I wasn't impressed with how they portrayed music, if that's how you were planning to use it. That's what got me investigating older, so-called "vintage" receivers.
(And, the fact that I prefer to do quite a lot of headphone listening left me very disappointed in the poor performance of the headphone outs of some fairly costly and quality-made receivers). The performance of the h/p outputs of these modern units just wasn't there for me. I found them lacking, in that department.

Which could lead us into a discussion about how the home theatre crowd (and how equipment makers have catered to that group) have left us music-only fans scrambling to find alternatives to the current amplifier offerings and has created an expensive, boutique niche for dedicated headphone makers. But, we'd be getting way off-topic with that. (I don't think I've even mentioned "T90" in my last two posts. It's all been about amplification).

It's not too difficult to get me off track and to launch onto a tangent.

 

[adydula]

Terry,

I think this conversation as it relates to how the T90's sound on different equipment is very relevant....many people ask what amp to use with what headphones, ie whats a good "pairing".
Your helpful insight points out there can be a drastic difference in sound reproduction with the T90's over a variety of AVR's.

Many people seem to have a similar experience with T90's and others across discrete amps and dacs and combinations of them as well.

This to me is not new..and why I looked for electronics that are as "neutral" as possible.

I can tell if a recording is done well or not with most of my setups...there are indeed minor differences with the 250 ohm T90s and 300 ohm T1's.
Mostly they are related to the power available to drive them well as there impedance changes across the freq spectrum.

Even if (IMO) you stay with one device you like and has the controls you want...bad recodings or mediocre recodings usually wont be made that much "better" by mucking
with tone or equalization curves. Again this is my experience.

The sad thing here is a lot of the older music I like to listen to will never be really that great even when re-mastered. Its just lost in time...but I play it with all its
worts and think of how well it sounded way back when in the car via an 8 track!!

I don't think I asked you if you ever tried the T90's on a discrete amp or dac setup?

Alex

 

[terry parr]

By the way Alex, if I flip that "Loudness" switch up on the Technics receiver, (to turn that "Loudness" feature on), I get exactly that bloated, and boomy reverberate bass that you mentioned a couple of posts back where you said that if you had the tone controls set the way I do on your receivers, the sound quality really degrades where all "air" is lost and the clarity is missing and the sound becomes muffled. Terrible sound. I know exactly what you mean. I'm glad this particular receiver gives you the option of not engaging the "Loudness" feature. Yes, that feature makes the presence of bass more noticeable at lower volumes, but the trade-off is how that feature otherwise degrades the overall sound. I don't use it.

I haven't tried the T90 on a dedicated amp and dac set-up. That would be interesting for me to do, but that experiment will have to wait for just a while longer, as my next expenditure will be in paying for some maintenance work on the Technics and SONY amps that I have.

My next major upgrade should come in the form of changing my source. I'm thinking about that today as I'm listening to Liz Story and her album My Foolish Heart. This is a recording from '92, and while I'd like to enjoy the music, the recording quality is preventing me from really enjoying it. Granted that an acoustic grand piano can be difficult to record, but the transient artifacts that you hear on this recording is very distracting. I wonder if a higher-quality and higher bit-rate source would improve the sound of this (and maybe other jazz piano recordings that I have). I could probably take a better source file and feed that through an optical cable straight to the dac that is incorporated into my Rotel 1570 CDP (which is a 24 bit / 192 kHz Wolfson WM8740).