[Maxvla]

Quote:

Maybe the Denons or PS1000/GS1000, but I simply can't agree that the other Grado headphones of having a "U" FR graph. They have amongst the most forward mids out there....period.

 
Do you see the U? I sure do. Here's more:
 

 
and for completeness:
 

 
That's every standard headphone from Grado on Headroom's measurements.

 

[Maxvla]

Quote:

Maxvla wrote:
 
Nowhere does it state that you prefer the signature of the HD650s at that volume. If you do, good for you. I personally can't stand how they sound at low volumes.
 
I can't read your intentions when the words don't relay them. Not a mind reader

 
In response to your above, this is what I wrote:
 
"My point was, even at low volume, I'm happy with the sound quality."
 
What you call sound signature, I call sound quality.  I do try as I'm not wanting to be enigmatic.  I can easily tolerate the "signature" of HD-650's at low listening volumes such as 5/100.  More than that, when online or doing something, they become too forward and distracting.  Personally, I would much prefer a $55k vinyl system based upon electrostatic speakers and a bottle of wine but I've promised to treat my liver and wallet with much more respect.
 
I'm surprised how good the HD-650's sound (sound signature) at such low volume.  My only complaint is that there's still a bit more veil that I'm dealing with.  I have new headphone cables slated to arrive early next week and I'm hoping they'll help lift the remainder of the HD-650 veil.

Pretty safe to say we hear very differently, which is perfectly fine. I hope the cable helps you out. I'm not too much of a cable believer, but I have to admit I've never really A/B'd a stock and aftermarket cable. My aftermarket cable was partially from a need for 4 pin XLR, partly a desire for a well made cable, and partly just a bit of splurge!

 

[beeman458]

Pretty safe to say we hear very differently, which is perfectly fine.
 
And I'll be happy to give you that the veil I write of is because I'm trying to drive the headphones at too low of a volume (voltage) and I'm expecting too much of them.
 
Currently listening to the haunting sound of Neil Young; "Cow Girl in the Sand" and dang that recording sounds good.  "Helpless" came on and I had to stop reading/writing as the sound quality was a show stopper.  Maybe I'm just easily pleased.
 

 

[MacedonianHero]

 
Quote:

 
Do you see the U? I sure do. Here's more:
 

 

 
That's every standard headphone from Grado on Headroom's measurements.

You've just proved my point....no "U". Mid bass hump, yes, but recessed mids...no!  The non GS/PS 1K headphones are all slightly recessed. But have a look at the other Grados...quite forward (first graph SR80/225).
 
No one has ever accused Grado headphones (SR60 all the way up to RS1) of having recessed mids.....really! More the opposite...mids too forward. Have you heard Grado headphones?
 
The all Grados I've heard (again except for the GS/PS models) all have mids just as forward as my T1s and SE535/530s. Headphones that are known for having slightly forward mids.

 

[Maxvla]

Quote:

 

You've just proved my point....no "U".

Really?
 



 
For comparison: HD600
 

 
No U, huh? I have owned the SR80, and heard the SR225, which according to these graphs, as you said, are the least U shaped of them all, but still have some of those characteristics.

 

[Bilavideo]

 

Really?
 



 
For comparison: HD600
 

 
No U, huh? I have owned the SR80, and heard the SR225, which according to these graphs, as you said, are the least U shaped of them all, but still have some of those characteristics.

 
I sorry I missed the relevance of the "U" which Grados are supposed to have, but I think your own lines undermine the point.  First, mids that range from flat to spiked can hardly be characterized as "recessed."  The GS1000 went out of its way to recess the mids, and the PS1000 attenuated that effect, but all of the other Grados are at flat and above when it comes to mids, so your analysis is getting a little sloppy.
 
Second, that line of yours - intended to prove that Grados have a "U shape" (which is neither pejorative nor precise, as U's come in varying degrees) - is rather arbitrarily drawn.  In the first three graphs - all having to do with Grados - you continue the line in both directions, even where the actual FR has dropped off.  Is it okay now to just draw the lines anyway you like?  If actual frequency response doesn't have to correlate with the line, why not draw a grid and just play Tic Tac Toe while you're at it?
 
Take a look at your little line in the fourth FR graph - the one for the Sennheiser HD600.  You are again drawing your line past actual drop-offs.  What's more, you are ignoring bowl-like, U-like, features.  What happened there?  And why are we not looking at the HD650?  Is it a reverse Evil Knievel, too?
 

 

[Maxvla]

Yes, my lines are arbitrary, courtesy of MS Paint. They are intended to show a trend, not be accurate. I'm also ignoring most of the information below 100hz and above 10khz to focus on the main section of the spectrum we hear the best. You guys can't see a simple U in the real graphs so I had to make a big bold trend line so you could see it. Now you are complaining that it isn't precise? If you want precise look at the original graphs!!
 
The HD600 line is perfectly fine. It's an average, which is why it doesn't follow the dips and bumps, but neither did the others. I picked the HD600 because that is the phone I own and prefer over anything I've heard (including HD800/650, among others). The HD650 graph is similar to the HD600 albeit a bit steeper with higher bass and slightly lower highs. The line would look very similar. I don't see what you are getting at with your comment.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 
 
I sorry I missed the relevance of the "U" which Grados are supposed to have, but I think your own lines undermine the point.  First, mids that range from flat to spiked can hardly be characterized as "recessed." 
 

Exactly! Well stated Bill.
 
Between Bill and I (SR60/80/125/225i/325is/RS1/RS1i....just for me), we've owned pretty much every Grado can there is in production and neither of us would ever categorize the mids as recessed.
 
A little too forward, maybe, recessed....nope.
 
BTW, as I tell my kids: "you listen with your ears".
 
Those graphs I feel do more harm than good. Just look at the D7000 graph and try to reconcile the bass on the graph with the thunder you hear.

 

[beeman458]

Where do you guys find all these way cool graphs?
 
???
 
Found graphs (Google) over at Headroom.com but I'm noticing that the graphs cut out at 11kHz.
 
What's with that?
 
???
 
Is learning more about frequency response curves of various headphones going make me hate my headphones?
 
???

 

[miyinan]

Way off the topic

 

[beeman458]

Sorry if my efforts to better understand headphones offends you.
 

 

[PointyFox]

 
Quote:

Where do you guys find all these way cool graphs?
 
???
 
Found graphs (Google) over at Headroom.com but I'm noticing that the graphs cut out at 11kHz.
 
What's with that?
 
???
 
Is learning more about frequency response curves of various headphones going make me hate my headphones?
 
???

The graphs are at Headroom (www.headphone.com). ((EDIT: They cut out at 20kHz, see next page)). They use a logarithmic scale so that they can use less data points in the higher frequencies and make the graph smoother.  Headphones have erratic high frequency response.  Speakers can produce much better sound than headphones. 
Yeah, frequency response curves will probably make you hate your headphones.

 

[beeman458]

Yeah, frequency response curves will probably make you hate your headphones.
 
Just what I need to be buying, ribbon speakers.........and the gear to support them.
 
Thanks for the reply.

 

 

[PointyFox]

..or electrostatic headphones
 
Quote:

Yeah, frequency response curves will probably make you hate your headphones.
 
Just what I need to be buying, ribbon speakers.........and the gear to support them.
 
Thanks for the reply.

 

 

[Maxvla]

Quote:

Exactly! Well stated Bill.
 
Between Bill and I (SR60/80/125/225i/325is/RS1/RS1i....just for me), we've owned pretty much every Grado can there is in production and neither of us would ever categorize the mids as recessed.
 
A little too forward, maybe, recessed....nope.
 
BTW, as I tell my kids: "you listen with your ears".
 
Those graphs I feel do more harm than good. Just look at the D7000 graph and try to reconcile the bass on the graph with the thunder you hear.

I did listen with my ears to the SR80 which I owned and the SR225 at a meet. Both sounded like the old cassette decks with the Loudness button turned on. Extremely fatiguing. What I've heard matches pretty well with what I see on those graphs.
 
I do agree with you, however, on the D7000. That just doesn't look right.