Beginner: Currently testing Denon AH-D2000, but is there better for classical music?

[TMRaven]

Yes I've yet to experience a planar magnetic, and I'd highly enjoy them based off their descriptions.  Hm, changing the cups sounds even more expensive!  Approving the acoustic treatment sounds nice, and so does the bass extension (although note it already hits 23hz stock-- but if it could do it without that inherent +2db bass boost all the way out to 100hz, then it sounds promising)  I'd always be up for bringing out their 3khz dip as well, which at times subdues brass and female vocals.
 
I could see making the argument that their 'bloated' bass is really just a small bass boost, but I wouldn't call it bloated in the purest sense.  It's a well controlled bass, but it's a well-controlled bass that's slightly boosted.  Headphones will never be able to reproduce the type of bass speakers do anyways, so I particularly don't have a gripe if a headphone has a small bass-boost to make up for their lack of effortless tight-impact.
 
 

 

[LFF]

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Headphones will never be able to reproduce the type of bass speakers do anyways, so I particularly don't have a gripe if a headphone has a small bass-boost to make up for their lack of effortless tight-impact.  
 

You really need to listen to the HE-500's. However, as great as the HE-500's are, the SR-009's are in a different league.

 
I wish I could afford them.

 

[sphinxvc]

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As some people mentioned, there is a depression in the midrange and some odd treble behavior (both D2000 and D7000 have this - I've heard them both.)

I have definitely noticed that "odd treble behavior", though I prefer the term "weird treble" =P -- anyway it makes the Denon line almost unlistenable for me.
 

 

[NinjaSquirt]

I see the AH D-2000 are on Amazon for $349. For that price range, a DT880 (250 ohm or 600 ohm) can be had. They a wide soundstage and great highs which would be good classical music and also are semi-open and extremely comfortable to wear. I don't know if they're perfect but I own a pair and the least I can say is you can't go wrong with them (unless you're a basshead).

 

[purrin]

 
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No, it is not.

 
 

Remember that's D2000, which to my ears sounds like a bad ported subwoofer. It's like the bass permeates all material, muddies everything up. The D7000 (graph which is shown) is much better behaved. As it is, the D7000 is already +15db up at 50Hz  from the midrange dip. The D2000 is probably +17-18 up. That's just too much. 
 
I markl modded my D5000 to tighten up the bass, but it was still too much for me. The more serious issue is the treble
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I have definitely noticed that "odd treble behavior", though I prefer the term "weird treble" =P -- anyway it makes the Denon line almost unlistenable for me.
 

Yup. My initial comment before measuring: They have serious serious serious ringing at the "tape hiss" region. Like a screwdriver being shoved into my ear. I can't just enjoy it or listen to it more to evaluate other aspects
 

 

[TMRaven]

17db up?  I seriously question that.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

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17db up?  I seriously question that.

Yea that just doesn't sound right .... XB500 is the most ridiculously measuring headphone in FR graphs with a flat ~15dB bass boost over the midrange:
 

 
 
 

 

[drummerman]

Response frequency variation, 20hz to 20khz is around +3 to -10db. That may seem high but in the world of headphones it is not! Furthermore, the response is relatively smooth. The dip from 1khz to around 8khz will come over as non-agressive mids but not lack of detail. The rise at 10kzh is normal as are the dip/rises thereafter.
 
If anything, ultimate high frequency extension is better than with many headphones, this could come over as 'weird' treble (as someone mentioned!) or simply the ability to desolve the highest delicate details. - My high frequency hearing tops off at around 16khz so I am less affected by either the good or bad at such frequencies. Bass extends a long way and lacks the midbass peak of some of the more prolific bassy phones.
 
Personally, I think Fostex have created a very advanced driver and the weaknes/sses are probably in the housings and pads. The J$ pads seem to even the frequency response out rather than exhagerate any anomalities so this could be a good call as may be the damping of the housing on the 2000 (contrary to the many published mods of packing them full with 'advanced' and expensive damping pads etc. I would suggest an insubstantial, light, slim metal crossbar to strengthen the cup. Read Dave Rat's headphone quest for more of that. Then just a bit of cotton wool to reduce internal standing waves)
 
If I can see any real weakness in frequency response its the 1khz rise. Not so obvious in the Headroom chart, more so at innerfidelity's. This is also audible but not to extend of annoying.
 
As always, my opinion only
 
regards

 

[Ham Sandwich]

I'm imagining the graph for the D2000 based on the D7000 graph.  I've heard the D7000 at meets and at auditions.  I own a D2000.  It's pretty easy to extrapolate what the graph for a D2000 would look like.  Take what's bad in a D7000 and make it worse.  It does look like the D7000 has some extra energy in the 200 - 1K range and then a node forming in the 1K to 3K range that might be what makes it sound like some of the bass is trying to intrude on the midrange.  I would suspect the D2000 to have even more of that.
 
One thing neat about the Denons is that they do 20Hz with something resembling musical info rather than just 20Hz distorted noise.  My test for that is pipe organ.  Something like the beginning of Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor on Telarc.  Starts with a pedal solo with 32' and 16' pipes.  The Denon is one of the few headphones that lets me hear that there is a 32' pipe.  Most other headphones that can do 20Hz turn the 32' pipe into so much mush that you no longer can tell it is there in the music.  So the Denon isn't a complete bloated failure in the bass department.  I'd still consider it on the loose and bloated side though.
 
Even though the HD600 measures better and is technically better I kept gravitating to the D2000 for my primary listening, even for the stuff that isn't pipe organ.  The HD600 kept getting less and less use.  I still consider the HD600 better, but I wasn't listening to it much.  Something about the Denon sound clicked for me and addicted me.
 
I've moved on from my Denon ways.  I now have an LCD-2 r2 (yeah, from the frying pan into the fire).  No more loosy goosy bass.    Pipe organ pedals are so much more clear and textured than the Denon.  It really makes it clear just how loose the Denon bass is.  I can confirm that it is possible to eargasm while listening to pipe organ on an LCD-2.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

A comment for the OP before we derail the thread with too much Denon talk and bass talk.
 
Take a look at the higher ohm flavors of Beyerdynamic headphones too.  They might match with your NAD, maybe.  Maybe a 600 ohm flavor of the DT880 or DT990 if the NAD can drive them.  I'm not a Beyer person and don't know that much about them and how well they match with various amps.  You'd need to ask someone who owns a few Beyers and is more familiar with them.

 

[guermantes]

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I checked the data sheet for the NAD C316BEE.  Headphone output impedance is 68 ohms.  Most likely the headphone jack is driven by a resistor network from the power amp.  That will give you the sound character of the speaker amp through the headphones.  Good if you happen to like the sound of the speaker amp and that sound is a match for the headphones.
 
The downside to that design is that it gives you a high output impedance.  Generally not a good match for low impedance headphones like the Denon.  My experience trying the Denon in higher impedance headphone outs is that the Denon loses some bass level and bass extension along with some other slight tonal changes and sharper treble.  Not the best way to drive the Denon.  The good news is that a higher output impedance will work fine with the 300 ohms Senns and some of the AKG's and similar headphones.  If you're going to use the NAD as your headphone amp I'd focus on headphones with an impedance of say 60 ohms or more.  I have no experience listening to the headphone out of the NAD so it's hard to say how it would match up.  Just making an assumption based on the specs and an assumption that the NAD is using a resistor network to power the headphone jack.

Hi, 
Just an update. I have been listening to the DT880 now in a store and I like them very much. I have not compared them back to back to the DT2000 (have to listen to them in different stores) so I can't really say how much they differ or which I prefer. It is true, the DT880 has a price advantage at 70% of the D2000. This is proving to be more difficult than I first thought. But fun as well! 
 
In the meantime I was thinking and trying to understand what Ham Sandwich wrote about the NAD's 68 ohms and the low impedance of the Denons. I will use my main amplifier as headphone amplifier, I don't see myself buying a separate headphone amp. So, trying to generalise from what Ham writes, is it a bad match if the headphones are lower impedance than the amplifier but not if the headphones are higher impedance than the amplifier (even if the difference would be large as in DT880=250ohm vs. NAD 68ohm) ?
 
Or is it not possible to generalise in this way?

 

[guermantes]

Thanks drummerman!
I read the blog post, and thought I was getting a grasp on things - the 1/8 rule could be a good starting point and then from there using my ears to make the final selection. Then, curious as I am to get the larger picture, I went back to the NADs and their specifications and got all confused again. 
 
So at the risk of drawing ridicule and irritation, I will venture my confusion (yes, my compatriot Tomas Tranströmer would have phrased that more elegantly!

 ).
 
All NAD amps from my budget C316BEE to the C375BEE which is around €1000 have headphone output impedance at 68 ohm and their manuals say they "will work with conventional headphones of any impedance". But 8*68 is 544 and thus according to the 1/8 rule only >550 ohm headphones ought to be appropriate for auditioning with the NAD amplifiers. 
 
1) Is the key to this puzzle "will work" as opposed to "appropriate" ?
2) Or do I overemphasize the 1/8 rule?
 
Cheers!

 

[drummerman]

No ridicule.
 
You are on the right track. The output impedance of your NAD headphone out's are high. Not ideal and it will cause frequency response variations as well as damping issues with most headphones off less than 600ohm impedance. You will most likely not hear what the headphone designers tried to achieve and what the product is technically capable of. It doesn't mean they wont make sound and it also doesn't mean you wont like the result but ideal it is not. It will also make direct comparison with other headphones a guessing affair as they all will most probably be affected in different ways. Less of a problem if you never change your amplification/source and/or keep your choice to 600 ohms phones but not so good otherwise.
 
On the plus side, there are good, cheap products available that avoid these problems such as FiiO's E7 or nwavguyis soon to be released O2. There are a few others. On a less happy note, there are some more expensive ones that compromise the performance of even relatively low impedance headphones.
 
I hope I understood your question correctly.
 
regards

 

[drummerman]

PS. On a similar note, I do wonder how many people are unhappy with their headphones without realizing these potential issues with their chosen amplification.
 
It also makes modding advise beyond simple basics a perilous affair without ensuring certain common factors, such as using the same or at least an impedance friendly amp.
 
regards

 

[guermantes]

Hmm... is there a different competing philosophy of headphone output impedance around that manufacturers use? 
I am thinking about the €860 A1 headphone amp from Beyerdynamic that has 100 ohm headphone output impedance (spec sheet here). That seems to be ridiculously over the top and their own headphones would not qualify for use under the 1/8 rule. Why would they want to push up the impedance that high and invite frequency response fluctuations?