[Nikolay Vutov]

Balanced connection is just a different circuit design. You want to tell me that louder sound is better quality sound?

 

[tolis626]

Balanced connection is just a different circuit design. You want to tell me that louder sound is better quality sound?

Not necessarily, no. But many headphones improve with more power and balanced connections provide that. Plus different headphones respond differently to higher voltages VS higher currents from the amp. So it may mean better sound, yes, but not necessarily. I think the whole balanced VS single ended argument is stupid. There's a lot of hype behind balanced gear, but in the end it's just a different way of doing things. It's the end result that matters. For example, I wanna get a Fiio Q5s. That's gonna sound better out of the balanced port because we're talking about 2.5x more power and lower distortion. But is it gonna sound better than a similar quality amp that provides the same power characteristics out of an SE connection? No idea.

 

[sejsel]

Hopefully the 'b' stands for 'bass', which the originals were completely lacking.

I guess your "appropriate bass" headphone would be then the Beyerdynamic DT-770, bassiest version, or something along those lines ?

 

[tolis626]

So, I am trying the MSR7b with HM5 pads. And not even the sheepskin ones with the spacer that I have on the MSR7, just the normal pleather ones (and mine are even a bit crooked. Interestingly enough, they play really well with them without further modifications, unlike their predecessors. They retain their excellent bass response and treble doesn't become obnoxious (although there is a peak somewhere that wasn't there with the stock pads, but I'll fix that at some point). They do, however, become more V-shaped, mids become a tiny bit recessed, but nothing extreme. What is extreme is the soundstage these things put out. Like, Jesus, for a portable closed back, it's massive. And it doesn't affect imaging that much, although it is a bit lacking compared to stock. So far I'm impressed with how much better these handle bigger pads compared to the MSR7 (although they do feel a bit loose and the HM5 don't get pressed on my head enough to maintain a seal at all positions, due to the decreased clamping force) . I'll be opening them up to see what I can do, but it'll be out of curiosity, not necessity.

Other things I've observed. They are as picky as the MSR7 with amps, and it's not volume that they need or lack. Also, are they even faster than the MSR7? I'm getting this impression, but it's not a massive difference.

I guess your "appropriate bass" headphone would be then the Beyerdynamic DT-770, bassiest version, or something along those lines ?

Well, in his defense, the MSR7 did lack bass. The b's bass is just right IMO.

 

[sejsel]

I guess your "appropriate bass" headphone would be then the Beyerdynamic DT-770, bassiest version, or something along those lines ?

Well, in his defense, the MSR7 did lack bass. The b's bass is just right IMO.

With all due respect, regarding the MSR7 lacking bass, not my impression at all, and I have heard bassy cans.

Second of all, several reviewers at their websites have clearly stated that the MSR7 has mild V-signature, which happens to be my impression as well, but also impression that has been cited all over the place. Yes, I am fully aware that many have stated the opposite about the bass, just trying to take all voices in account. MSR7 has - to me - excellent bass response, and taste of this is given exactly when listening to the bassier tracks.
Listen to the high quality EDM streams from the BBC Radio One, in high quality (48000 kHz, 320kbps) (m4a), or analogue FM quality recordings of the same shows, the bass response is there and it is in proportion to the source.

Regarding your claim about MSR7b, well, there are actually reviewers who have compared in detail the MSR7 and MSR7b and stated clearly that the MRS7 - old version - not "b" sounds better, fuller and responds better to amplification and EQ-ing. I do sincerely wish that it was the other way round.

I have recently, few days ago, demoed, very shortly, the MSR7b and have re-acquired the MSR7, running them at home for couple of days. Out of the box, hands down, MSR7 sounded fuller, more robust so to speak (sonically) and more involving (because of that).
I might though take a stroll to the shop and do the direct comparison with the MSR7b.

 

[tolis626]

With all due respect, regarding the MSR7 lacking bass, not my impression at all, and I have heard bassy cans.

Second of all, several reviewers at their websites have clearly stated that the MSR7 has mild V-signature, which happens to be my impression as well, but also impression that has been cited all over the place. Yes, I am fully aware that many have stated the opposite about the bass, just trying to take all voices in account. MSR7 has - to me - excellent bass response, and taste of this is given exactly when listening to the bassier tracks.
Listen to the high quality EDM streams from the BBC Radio One, in high quality (48000 kHz, 320kbps) (m4a), or analogue FM quality recordings of the same shows, the bass response is there and it is in proportion to the source.

Regarding your claim about MSR7b, well, there are actually reviewers who have compared in detail the MSR7 and MSR7b and stated clearly that the MRS7 - old version - not "b" sounds better, fuller and responds better to amplification and EQ-ing. I do sincerely wish that it was the other way round.

I have recently, few days ago, demoed, very shortly, the MSR7b and have re-acquired the MSR7, running them at home for couple of days. Out of the box, hands down, MSR7 sounded fuller, more robust so to speak (sonically) and more involving (because of that).
I might though take a stroll to the shop and do the direct comparison with the MSR7b.

Well, I think you are confusing "I like it more" with "it's better". The stock MSR7's bass just wasn't enough for most music (unless messed with or equalized to compensate for it). For all their great attributes, they had 2 big flaws : lacking bass and harsh lower treble. And I'm talking about one of my favorite headphones, like, ever.

Other than that, I can respect your opinion, the MSR7b is a much more "mainstream" sound than the MSR7, but I don't personally think that's a bad thing. On the contrary, I can enjoy many more types of music on the MSR7b than I could on the MSR7 stock. Now, are the MSR7b lacking in some aspects compared to the originals? Yes, yes they are. As you said, mids were fuller and more forward on the MSR7, but the b offer a wider soundstage in exchange, so I can't be mad. As for EQing, both take to messing with them just fine, so to me it's a moot point.

My biggest source of excitement about the MSR7b is that, as long as they changed nothing else about the driver, the improvement in the diaphragm could make one of, IMO, the best drivers in their wider price range even better. The MSR7 drivers were extremely capable. If all AT did was give them a stiffer and lighter diaphragm, these things should be able to do wonders with modding and different tuning. I mean, if I could easily transform the MSR7 from a bright, harsh, narrow headphone to a warm, relatively flat and wide af one, then the MSR7b are very interesting to me. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm not interested in their stock form, either of them. I want to push every ounce of capability out of them, even if that means a sacrifice to portability. I respect others that might not want to do so, though.

At the end of the day, they're both extremely good cans. Use whichever you like most and enjoy them, I won't be able to tell you you're wrong with either choice.

 

[sejsel]

No, I do not think that I am confusing (and neither do the listeners who have extensively compared A/B the old model to the new one) "I like it more" with "it is better". Not at all, and I have, as far as I remember, already stated in the previous post why I have written what I have written, on basis of what arguments and a vast number of user reviews and official reviews.

There is one very detailed review stating pretty much the same, in his comparison of the old model with new one. Try to find it on amazon, either on the page of the new headphone, or the old one.

ATH-MSR7 lacking bass is your subjective opinion, as well as being a subjective opinion of some number of users. There are numerous others who claim the opposite, as well as saying that the former statement is incorrect and misleading.

In contrast to your style of presenting and giving statements, I did not present my opinions in bold statements without any further arguments, as you do quite often, but instead first listened carefully to the headphones myself for several years, with the plethora of various sources, and found many reviews that actually clearly state the opposite of your statements, even from well renowned sources.
Several have stated that the headphone has mild V-signature, yet time after time you go on claiming the opposite, and simply disqualify, at the very first instance, when someone else puts the case for the opposite, based not only on his own opinion and impressions, but based as well on a number of other reviews and user opinions, and official reviews.

On top of all of that, you then use that as a spring-board for the vast number of posts with various hacks and mods on what is very capable headphone to begin with, tuned carefully at Audio-Technica, .

If your subjective preferences state that you were "never interested in the ATH-MSR7 in its stock form" , well, sorry to "burst the bubble", there is a vast number of people who actually prefer the headphone in its stock form, without any modification which also completely voids the manufacturer's warranty.
People who work in the audio industry - at Audio Technica - are professionals, with vast experience, and I see no reason why I, or many of us here would be less interested in their interpretation of the sound of the headphone and its tuning rather than the same from some random user.

You state some very controversial things, in the sense that you attribute someone else with subjectivity, yet numerous statement that follow in the very same post where you begin with exactly such statement do follow with the exactly the same thing, only in your own arrangement, and that repeatedly.

While we are on the subject, it would have been fair to all of us, imo, to have opened the dedicated thread on ATH-MSR7 mods instead of flooding the two threads (MSR7 and MSR7b thread) with a vast number of posts with modifications that suit your personal taste and not necessarily the taste (in sound and usability) of many other users.
Apart from encouraging others to actively void the guarantee, it is enormously tiring to browse page after page at both threads and scroll and jump all over the place, page after page, in order to skip all those posts that have taken over pages and pages in particularly thread dedicated to the MSR7 (old model).

I want to push every ounce of capability out of them, even if that means a sacrifice to portability.

I find this statement particularly amusing and peculiar. Major audio companies, that have produced headphone amplifiers, headphones, devoting large resources to R&D, coming up with new, state of the art materials, technologies and technical and engineering solutions, are supposed, according to the logic in this post, to be outdone by someone who has limited resources and none industrial capability whatsoever.
In my eyes, this is the kind of nonsense that makes the hf to be often, sadly, quoted as a place where some people are well and truly all over the place. I am not saying that any of these companies have god-given, last word, but some sort of contact with the reality and with one's own resources and capabilities is perhaps needed here.

Anyone can modify all they want, to alter the sound signature of the headphone to some extent, but if we are to "push every ounce of capability" out of the high-tech audio devices, then I warmly welcome anyone claiming this to open his own audio hi-fi company, develops the product, in particular drivers, membranes, damping, and employ the materials and design, and puts instead his money where his mouth is. With all due respect.

 

[Mhog55]

The ongoing bickering within this forum never stops, and for the most part, a lot of it is completely pointless. It's all highly subjective, even more so than many, many other debatable topics. We all hear things differently, we all like things differently. The only purpose of reading reviews is to try to establish some relevance pertaining to commonalities. Otherwise, it's just an opinion based on what one person was hearing, and how that compared to what they like and prefer. If you think a certain headphone may be a good fit for you, roll the dice and see for yourself.

 

[sejsel]

The ongoing bickering within this forum never stops, and for the most part, a lot of it is completely pointless. It's all highly subjective, even more so than many, many other debatable topics. We all hear things differently, we all like things differently. The only purpose of reading reviews is to try to establish some relevance pertaining to commonalities. Otherwise, it's just an opinion based on what one person was hearing, and how that compared to what they like and prefer. If you think a certain headphone may be a good fit for you, roll the dice and see for yourself.

I did , for one, "roll the dice" and found the headphone that I felt is a good fit for me, within the price bracket, as many others did.
Some found some other headphones. That particular thing was never the issue for me, or the main issue I did object to; so I hardly see the point in this sort of characterization.

I had no desire to enter some sort of "bickering" by posting my two replies, if one bothers to read what was written in them, apart from mentioning the obvious differences in preferences to the sound signature of the headphones. That was not the main issue in my replies nor the point of them, of course everyone hears differently and has different sound preferences, and is entitled to it.

But to serve the previous reply I got, in the manner exerted there, and start the whole post with the attempt to disqualify others' well argumented replies with "I think you are confusing "I like it more" with "it is better" " is simply as absurd as it gets, as a way of conducting the debate.
I see no evidence why anyone could not have said the same to the very author of such reply, regarding his preferences, yet hardly anyone did.
The sound is to some degree subjective, so who's entitled to qualify people with "You are confusing what is better with what you like better", and keep any ounce of credibility while at it ?
I have never used such statements (the one within the quotes), only stated that it should be allowed to feel and hear otherwise than the poster, and present that pointing to the statistically not insignificant number of opinions stating the same.

One major point being raised was the issue of superposing one's views not only to some single person who happens to enter the thread, but to the whole thread, and then on top of it all, using that notion as a springboard for pretty much turning the thread into the DIY modding thread.

The other was a serious objection to the statement of "pushing the every ounce of capability out of the MSR7" - with such technically and technologically limited DIY mods (as to say impliticitly that the designers simply have not done that), and I do not see that as any sort of bickering but as the questioning of the validity of such statements in the broader technological sense.

 

[tolis626]

No, I do not think that I am confusing (and neither do the listeners who have extensively compared A/B the old model to the new one) "I like it more" with "it is better". Not at all, and I have, as far as I remember, already stated in the previous post why I have written what I have written, on basis of what arguments and a vast number of user reviews and official reviews.

There is one very detailed review stating pretty much the same, in his comparison of the old model with new one. Try to find it on amazon, either on the page of the new headphone, or the old one.

ATH-MSR7 lacking bass is your subjective opinion, as well as being a subjective opinion of some number of users. There are numerous others who claim the opposite, as well as saying that the former statement is incorrect and misleading.

In contrast to your style of presenting and giving statements, I did not present my opinions in bold statements without any further arguments, as you do quite often, but instead first listened carefully to the headphones myself for several years, with the plethora of various sources, and found many reviews that actually clearly state the opposite of your statements, even from well renowned sources.
Several have stated that the headphone has mild V-signature, yet time after time you go on claiming the opposite, and simply disqualify, at the very first instance, when someone else puts the case for the opposite, based not only on his own opinion and impressions, but based as well on a number of other reviews and user opinions, and official reviews.

On top of all of that, you then use that as a spring-board for the vast number of posts with various hacks and mods on what is very capable headphone to begin with, tuned carefully at Audio-Technica, .

If your subjective preferences state that you were "never interested in the ATH-MSR7 in its stock form" , well, sorry to "burst the bubble", there is a vast number of people who actually prefer the headphone in its stock form, without any modification which also completely voids the manufacturer's warranty.
People who work in the audio industry - at Audio Technica - are professionals, with vast experience, and I see no reason why I, or many of us here would be less interested in their interpretation of the sound of the headphone and its tuning rather than the same from some random user.

You state some very controversial things, in the sense that you attribute someone else with subjectivity, yet numerous statement that follow in the very same post where you begin with exactly such statement do follow with the exactly the same thing, only in your own arrangement, and that repeatedly.

While we are on the subject, it would have been fair to all of us, imo, to have opened the dedicated thread on ATH-MSR7 mods instead of flooding the two threads (MSR7 and MSR7b thread) with a vast number of posts with modifications that suit your personal taste and not necessarily the taste (in sound and usability) of many other users.
Apart from encouraging others to actively void the guarantee, it is enormously tiring to browse page after page at both threads and scroll and jump all over the place, page after page, in order to skip all those posts that have taken over pages and pages in particularly thread dedicated to the MSR7 (old model).



I find this statement particularly amusing and peculiar. Major audio companies, that have produced headphone amplifiers, headphones, devoting large resources to R&D, coming up with new, state of the art materials, technologies and technical and engineering solutions, are supposed, according to the logic in this post, to be outdone by someone who has limited resources and none industrial capability whatsoever.
In my eyes, this is the kind of nonsense that makes the hf to be often, sadly, quoted as a place where some people are well and truly all over the place. I am not saying that any of these companies have god-given, last word, but some sort of contact with the reality and with one's own resources and capabilities is perhaps needed here.

Anyone can modify all they want, to alter the sound signature of the headphone to some extent, but if we are to "push every ounce of capability" out of the high-tech audio devices, then I warmly welcome anyone claiming this to open his own audio hi-fi company, develops the product, in particular drivers, membranes, damping, and employ the materials and design, and puts instead his money where his mouth is. With all due respect.

I think you're reading too much into this. I don't think I ever stated my opinions as facts. And if I did, it was unintentional amidst my enthusiasm for something. Most of my posts have some sort of "I believe x sounds better" vibe, rather than bold statements as you interpret them. You have probably misunderstood my enthusiasm for arrogance. And you're wrong, I'm more than happy to be corrected and disagreed with. Maybe at the end of the day I have no idea what I'm talking about, but hey, I tried some things, they worked for me and I was eager to share. Can't see what's wrong with that.

Secondly, I never said I wasn't interested in the MSR7 without mods. I said I wasn't interested in the MSR7b without mods. And that's because I so thoroughly enjoy my tinkered with MSR7, I still hope that the driver in the MSR7b is superior to the one in the MSR7 and it can be tuned to my liking. That's why I bought this headphone, as a project, to continue my tinkering that I started with the original MSR7.

Third, never have I ever said that I can do any of this better than the engineers that have devoted their lives to this. AT went for a particular sound signature and a particular form factor with the MSR7. I respect that, I like what they did with the headphones, but I like my tuning better (and that's what it is, tuning). And just as a side note, everything started because I can't really use the stock pads comfortably, so I was trying to make the MSR7 work with larger/more comfortable pads, like the HM5. It turned out that hey, the MSR7 can actually produce the little added bass that I think was missing, their highs can be smoother and their soundstage wider. It became a completely different headphone and I firmly believe that it's a better sound than stock. I may be wrong, but I don't really care as long as I like it better. I never forced anyone to do anything to their headphones, we're all big kids here.

I could go on, but calling someone out like that because you disagree with their opinion on a matter is asinine in my opinion, even if you're right all the way. I respect your opinion, the least you can do is respect mine. Or maybe I kind of lost the part where messing with my stuff, sharing my findings and actually liking what I did to something is not allowed.

PS : Most reviews I have read online actually praise the MSR7b and call it an improvement over the MSR7. I can't be arsed to argue about who's right or wrong on the matter, but it just goes to show that there's always two sides to a coin. A source isn't credible only when they agree with me. For all I care, I have in front of me two pairs of headphones that I absolutely adore, and which I thoroughly enjoy messing with. Can't see where I went wrong with that.

PS 2 : I really didn't write any of this in an agressive manner and I would completely agree about creating a dedicated thread for MSR7 modding, if the headphones were more popular here and there were more people messing with them. Modding threads are filled with T50 mods, Beyerdynamic mods and Grado mods. Probably for good reason, there's people doing insane things there, but there's just not enough people to do that with the MSR7.

 

[Quadfather]

The extent of my reviews is usually Gee, I think that sounds awesome, or Wow! I don't like that.

 

[sejsel]

I could go on, but calling someone out like that because you disagree with their opinion on a matter is asinine in my opinion, even if you're right all the way. I respect your opinion, the least you can do is respect mine.

... while, couple of posts ago :

Well, I think you are confusing "I like it more" with "it's better".

The stock MSR7's bass just wasn't enough for most music (unless messed with or equalized to compensate for it). For all their great attributes, they had 2 big flaws : lacking bass and harsh lower treble. And I'm talking about one of my favorite headphones, like, ever.

So, I am going to leave this part of debate with that, as I do appreciate when people actually read what was actually written and conveyed, by others and by themselves, in entirety of the posts as a whole.

Just for the sake of shedding the different (albeit subjective, as always) light on the matter of MSR7b vs. MSR7 - here is the review from the amazon
(for the record, I wish the guy who wrote it is completely wrong, since I do intend to purchase the MSR7b at some point in the future) :

 

[Mhog55]

I did , for one, "roll the dice" and found the headphone that I felt is a good fit for me, within the price bracket, as many others did.
Some found some other headphones. That particular thing was never the issue for me, or the main issue I did object to; so I hardly see the point in this sort of characterization.

I had no desire to enter some sort of "bickering" by posting my two replies, if one bothers to read what was written in them, apart from mentioning the obvious differences in preferences to the sound signature of the headphones. That was not the main issue in my replies nor the point of them, of course everyone hears differently and has different sound preferences, and is entitled to it.

But to serve the previous reply I got, in the manner exerted there, and start the whole post with the attempt to disqualify others' well argumented replies with "I think you are confusing "I like it more" with "it is better" " is simply as absurd as it gets, as a way of conducting the debate.
I see no evidence why anyone could not have said the same to the very author of such reply, regarding his preferences, yet hardly anyone did.
The sound is to some degree subjective, so who's entitled to qualify people with "You are confusing what is better with what you like better", and keep any ounce of credibility while at it ?
I have never used such statements (the one within the quotes), only stated that it should be allowed to feel and hear otherwise than the poster, and present that pointing to the statistically not insignificant number of opinions stating the same.

One major point being raised was the issue of superposing one's views not only to some single person who happens to enter the thread, but to the whole thread, and then on top of it all, using that notion as a springboard for pretty much turning the thread into the DIY modding thread.

The other was a serious objection to the statement of "pushing the every ounce of capability out of the MSR7" - with such technically and technologically limited DIY mods (as to say impliticitly that the designers simply have not done that), and I do not see that as any sort of bickering but as the questioning of the validity of such statements in the broader technological sense.

My response was directed at no single individual. So to some degree, it does come across as though you may be taking things a slight bit personal. That being said, I respect and appreciate everyone's healthy contributions. But again, I place little value on individual reviews. I can read 4 reviews on the same can, and receive polar opposite opinions and statements.

 

[sejsel]

My response was directed at no single individual. So to some degree, it does come across as though you may be taking things a slight bit personal. That being said, I respect and appreciate everyone's healthy contributions. But again, I place little value on individual reviews. I can read 4 reviews on the same can, and receive polar opposite opinions and statements.

Your response came in close succession to the posts written prior to it, and it was written for a reason, and I addressed what I found to have been needed to be addressed.
So feel free to interpret how all of it does come across, and where does it apply and can be applied, for my part - well, mea culpa.

I place little value on individual reviews myself as well, as they have proven to be misleading in many instances, yet that sort of statement is very broad and general.
I can read 16 reviews on the same can, and end up with being completely confused, and then after acquiring the headphone, I can compare and sum the reviews and notice that some of them correspond rather well to one own's experience.
That could mean that not all of them can, nor should be that easily discarded.
So, while I agree in principal to the general remark about reviews, the devil is always in the detail, as usual.

 

[Mhog55]

Good times