[Audiophile2019]

i just wonder how much difference these balanced cables really make.

It is a real improvement that anyone can discern? Or is it a "I-think-I-can-hear-a-difference"... an imaginative, self-deception because you shelled out the money and want to believe the money wasn't wasted kind of difference?

Balanced cables are for real - there is a big difference.. I'm always for balanced cables since Day 1.. Both the "stock" balanced cables (on 4.4mm port) of my ATH-MSR7B & Sony MDR-1AM2 headphones are fully utilized..

 

[PolloLoco]

i just wonder how much difference these balanced cables really make.

It is a real improvement that anyone can discern? Or is it a "I-think-I-can-hear-a-difference"... an imaginative, self-deception because you shelled out the money and want to believe the money wasn't wasted kind of difference?

I've listened to cheap and expensive single ended cables back to back and have never been able to discern a difference.

Completely different animal between single ended and balanced. The negative wave for left and right is driven, so at the very least you get double the voltage. That driven signal results in improved soundstage and accurate placement if your headphones are good. Also, the reduced distortion using a completely balanced chain is measurable in reviews through specialized equipment. Though your ears may not pick up that difference.

 

[nraymond]

Completely different animal between single ended and balanced. The negative wave for left and right is driven, so at the very least you get double the voltage. That driven signal results in improved soundstage and accurate placement if your headphones are good. Also, the reduced distortion using a completely balanced chain is measurable in reviews through specialized equipment. Though your ears may not pick up that difference.

If by "completely balanced chain" you mean the use of balanced (XLR, TRS) interconnects as well as a balanced headphone amplifier, they aren't the same technology. Balanced interconnects (two signal wires per channel plus separate ground wire) are about noise rejection, because the two signal wires in each channel both carry a copy of the signal, each with their polarity reversed. The receiving gear flips the inverted signal back into its original orientation, and since both copies of the signal picked up the same noise as they traveled along the cable, flipping the polarity of what arrives at the receiving gear will produce the original signal intact and noise which now has reversed polarity. Summing that gives you a signal that’s preserved and noise that’s canceled. Very useful for long runs, and common (often necessary due to the length of the runs) in pro studios and live music applications.

Balanced headphone amplifiers on the other hand have two amplifiers per channel, one outputting positive voltage, the other negative. The advantage of a balanced headphone amplifier is that it can deliver 4 times the power for a given power supply voltage, which is good in portable amplifiers especially with hard to drive headphones. However the output noise doubles and the damping factor degrades by a factor of 2 because both amplifiers contribute to the source impedance (i.e. Topping DX7 is 10 ohm unbalanced, 20 ohm balanced, which will negatively impact the sound of a lot of sensitive IEMs). Distortion usually increases, though people don't always dislike distortion since the harmonics of the distortion will sound like "warmth" added to the sound.

Note that some companies will utilize 4-pin/4-wire connections for headphones, but the signal will not be voltage balanced. Instead they're just using the extra pins/wires to isolate the left and right channel grounds (rather than use a common ground), and in the case of XLR, they could also be using it for lower contact resistance vs 1/4" TRS connectors. Benchmark does this in their best headphone amplifiers for instance since they don't feel the trade-off of more power for increased noise and degraded damping factor is worth it to drive heapdhones with a balanced amp, but they offer a 4-pin XLR connector.

TL;DR: Balanced headphone amps are not the same technology as balanced interconnects, and a balanced headphone amplifier isn't necessarily better than an unbalanced one.

 

[PolloLoco]

If by "completely balanced chain" you mean the use of balanced (XLR, TRS) interconnects as well as a balanced headphone amplifier, they aren't the same technology. Balanced interconnects (two signal wires per channel plus separate ground wire) are about noise rejection, because the two signal wires in each channel both carry a copy of the signal, each with their polarity reversed. The receiving gear flips the inverted signal back into its original orientation, and since both copies of the signal picked up the same noise as they traveled along the cable, flipping the polarity of what arrives at the receiving gear will produce the original signal intact and noise which now has reversed polarity. Summing that gives you a signal that’s preserved and noise that’s canceled. Very useful for long runs, and common (often necessary due to the length of the runs) in pro studios and live music applications.

Balanced headphone amplifiers on the other hand have two amplifiers per channel, one outputting positive voltage, the other negative. The advantage of a balanced headphone amplifier is that it can deliver 4 times the power for a given power supply voltage, which is good in portable amplifiers especially with hard to drive headphones. However the output noise doubles and the damping factor degrades by a factor of 2 because both amplifiers contribute to the source impedance (i.e. Topping DX7 is 10 ohm unbalanced, 20 ohm balanced, which will negatively impact the sound of a lot of sensitive IEMs). Distortion usually increases, though people don't always dislike distortion since the harmonics of the distortion will sound like "warmth" added to the sound.

Note that some companies will utilize 4-pin/4-wire connections for headphones, but the signal will not be voltage balanced. Instead they're just using the extra pins/wires to isolate the left and right channel grounds (rather than use a common ground), and in the case of XLR, they could also be using it for lower contact resistance vs 1/4" TRS connectors. Benchmark does this in their best headphone amplifiers for instance since they don't feel the trade-off of more power for increased noise and degraded damping factor is worth it to drive heapdhones with a balanced amp, but they offer a 4-pin XLR connector.

TL;DR: Balanced headphone amps are not the same technology as balanced interconnects, and a balanced headphone amplifier isn't necessarily better than an unbalanced one.

Thank you for providing that detail! I was being intentionally lazy and oversimplified since I'm typing on a cell phone. In any case, I believe you would agree that a properly supplied balanced cable offers audible improvements?

 

[Nikolay Vutov]

Let me tell you something about balanced connections. I got the headphones before 2-3 months and for your surprise "balanced cable maniacs" there are NO DIFFERENCE between balanced and single ended cables in terms of audio quality. Not only on this headphones but in any other at all. Balanced cables are made to remove the noise if your cable is 15 meters and go around other cables etc. Balanced cables are good for studio use when you use long cables for long distance. For 2-3m cables balanced cables are EXACTLY THE SAME in terms of quality as single ended. Difference is in the way your signal goes from your device to your speakers. This is a cable, not DAC! What is this bullsh*t you all talk about... better soundstage, better imaging, better etc. There are NO DIFFERENCE except the volume because you put more voltage through the balanced cable! Don't talk stupid things.

 

[tolis626]

While I sadly don't have much first hand experience, my personal belief is that balanced gear is like a more straightforward tube amp. Not every headphone can benefit from it, some may even suffer, but there are some that improve a lot with balanced. What people need to keep in mind is that a balanced design will usually work better when used in balanced mode. Be it due to lower noise, higher power, seperated grounds or whatever, an amp that is designed to be run balanced will behave accordingly. So I think that people comparing the SE and balanced outs on the same amp are kind of missing the point. It's much more complicated than "balanced is good" or "balanced is bad".

I listen to 95% rock music. The 58X and 99 Classics are far and away my favorite two cans for this genre. Do you think I would experience the same level of satisfaction from the Msr7b? I've been on the fence for some time now. The treble concerns me, and a lot of older rock recordings can be harsh. So I'm on the fence. Try to push or pull me off of it please.

Well, take the 58x. Close them, make their bass a bit tighter, their soundstage a bit wider/imaging slightly worse, and just boost the highs until you're just above complete neutrality. Congrats, you now have MSR7b.

In all seriousness though, the MSR7b, apart from the obvious difference in treble are very similar to the 58x. So ask yourself if you could use a 58x with boosted treble and there's your answer. My take is that the MSR7b are among the best closed backs you can buy, period. Their driver, if it's any better than the MSR7, is amazingly capable.

A quick comparison would be this :
- Bass : MSR7b wins. It's better extended and tighter on the lows. Not a huge difference, 58x sound more mellow on their lows, MSR7b is more visceral.
- Mids : 58x wins. When you don't lose by a long shot to Sennheiser's mids but are just behind, I consider it a win. The MSR7b make me think the singer is 0.5m in front of me, singing for only me. With the 58x I feel like I can touch the same singer. It's got something special, but the MSR7b is damn good for vocals too.
- Highs : Depends. Are you ok with a bit of brightness? If so, MSR7b wins. Better extended highs, more of them, actually may be smoother. If you prefer a bit quelled treble, then the 58x's dark-ish signature is for you. Their treble, while very present, is never ever EVER offensive in any way. Can be boring with some tracks though.
- Details : I've heard 4-digit price headphones that merely trade blows with the MSR7, and the MSR7b is just as good as its predecessor. So yeah, poor 58x.
- Imaging : I've heard 4-digit price headphones that merely trade blows with the 58x's imaging. The MSR7b are damn good, but they're just not pinpoint accurate like the 58x.
- Soundstage : That's where things are rough. I'm not even gonna compare to the likes of the LCD-2C, because there's no point. The MSR7b has very good soundstage for a portable closed back, but that's about it. The 58x is really narrow for an open back. So it's kind of a wash. The MSR7b may be a tad wider, but the soundstage of the 58x is a tad more realistic, more believable, so I'm gonna give it to the 58x, but barely so.
Random pros and cons of each can :
PROS : (MSR7b) Portable, extremely light, extremely comfy, easy to carry around, doesn't leak much sound. (58x) Open, comfortable as ****, when music doesn't play it feels like you're wearing nothing.
Cons : (MSR7b) Can get sweaty, can get slightly harsh at high volumes, pads are rather small. (58x) High clamp pressure at first, pads are meh, stock cable is long as hell, sounds lifeless with some songs due to the recessed treble (in comparison to the MSR7b, not in general)

Having written all that, the comparison is mostly invalid because open vs closed and because they're both terrific headphones. Also, they both get their butts handed to them by my modded MSR7, so they have that in common too. The MSR7b may have the potential to become even better with modding, though, the 58x not so much.

 

[Mhog55]

Let me tell you something about balanced connections. I got the headphones before 2-3 months and for your surprise "balanced cable maniacs" there are NO DIFFERENCE between balanced and single ended cables in terms of audio quality. Not only on this headphones but in any other at all. Balanced cables are made to remove the noise if your cable is 15 meters and go around other cables etc. Balanced cables are good for studio use when you use long cables for long distance. For 2-3m cables balanced cables are EXACTLY THE SAME in terms of quality as single ended. Difference is in the way your signal goes from your device to your speakers. This is a cable, not DAC! What is this bullsh*t you all talk about... better soundstage, better imaging, better etc. There are NO DIFFERENCE except the volume because you put more voltage through the balanced cable! Don't talk stupid things.

Well there's 60 seconds of my life I'll never get back. You sound both ignorant and entitled. Congratulations

 

[Mhog55]

While I sadly don't have much first hand experience, my personal belief is that balanced gear is like a more straightforward tube amp. Not every headphone can benefit from it, some may even suffer, but there are some that improve a lot with balanced. What people need to keep in mind is that a balanced design will usually work better when used in balanced mode. Be it due to lower noise, higher power, seperated grounds or whatever, an amp that is designed to be run balanced will behave accordingly. So I think that people comparing the SE and balanced outs on the same amp are kind of missing the point. It's much more complicated than "balanced is good" or "balanced is bad".

Well, take the 58x. Close them, make their bass a bit tighter, their soundstage a bit wider/imaging slightly worse, and just boost the highs until you're just above complete neutrality. Congrats, you now have MSR7b.

In all seriousness though, the MSR7b, apart from the obvious difference in treble are very similar to the 58x. So ask yourself if you could use a 58x with boosted treble and there's your answer. My take is that the MSR7b are among the best closed backs you can buy, period. Their driver, if it's any better than the MSR7, is amazingly capable.

A quick comparison would be this :
- Bass : MSR7b wins. It's better extended and tighter on the lows. Not a huge difference, 58x sound more mellow on their lows, MSR7b is more visceral.
- Mids : 58x wins. When you don't lose by a long shot to Sennheiser's mids but are just behind, I consider it a win. The MSR7b make me think the singer is 0.5m in front of me, singing for only me. With the 58x I feel like I can touch the same singer. It's got something special, but the MSR7b is damn good for vocals too.
- Highs : Depends. Are you ok with a bit of brightness? If so, MSR7b wins. Better extended highs, more of them, actually may be smoother. If you prefer a bit quelled treble, then the 58x's dark-ish signature is for you. Their treble, while very present, is never ever EVER offensive in any way. Can be boring with some tracks though.
- Details : I've heard 4-digit price headphones that merely trade blows with the MSR7, and the MSR7b is just as good as its predecessor. So yeah, poor 58x.
- Imaging : I've heard 4-digit price headphones that merely trade blows with the 58x's imaging. The MSR7b are damn good, but they're just not pinpoint accurate like the 58x.
- Soundstage : That's where things are rough. I'm not even gonna compare to the likes of the LCD-2C, because there's no point. The MSR7b has very good soundstage for a portable closed back, but that's about it. The 58x is really narrow for an open back. So it's kind of a wash. The MSR7b may be a tad wider, but the soundstage of the 58x is a tad more realistic, more believable, so I'm gonna give it to the 58x, but barely so.
Random pros and cons of each can :
PROS : (MSR7b) Portable, extremely light, extremely comfy, easy to carry around, doesn't leak much sound. (58x) Open, comfortable as ****, when music doesn't play it feels like you're wearing nothing.
Cons : (MSR7b) Can get sweaty, can get slightly harsh at high volumes, pads are rather small. (58x) High clamp pressure at first, pads are meh, stock cable is long as hell, sounds lifeless with some songs due to the recessed treble (in comparison to the MSR7b, not in general)

Having written all that, the comparison is mostly invalid because open vs closed and because they're both terrific headphones. Also, they both get their butts handed to them by my modded MSR7, so they have that in common too. The MSR7b may have the potential to become even better with modding, though, the 58x not so much.

Good post - I appreciate it. The only thing that concerns me is the treble being a bit too hot and sharp for my liking. Does this headphone respond well to EQ - Can I EQ my way out of that overly bright treble should I need to? I closer to pulling the trigger now.

 

[tolis626]

Good post - I appreciate it. The only thing that concerns me is the treble being a bit too hot and sharp for my liking. Does this headphone respond well to EQ - Can I EQ my way out of that overly bright treble should I need to? I closer to pulling the trigger now.

The treble on the MSR7b isn't that hot. Sure, it's a bit boosted, but not harsh or piercing or sibilant. The original MSR7 were treble murder by comparison. I don't think you'll have a problem. I sure don't.

Having said that, the originals responded to EQ pretty well, so I see no reason why the b wouldn't, although I haven't tried it. If treble is your only issue, you could just put a piece of felt or toilet paper between the driver and the pads to calm it down a bit. It works wonders, I've done it on the MSR7 and can provide you with any info you may need.

 

[tokyodan]

Let me tell you something about balanced connections. I got the headphones before 2-3 months and for your surprise "balanced cable maniacs" there are NO DIFFERENCE between balanced and single ended cables in terms of audio quality. Not only on this headphones but in any other at all. Balanced cables are made to remove the noise if your cable is 15 meters and go around other cables etc. Balanced cables are good for studio use when you use long cables for long distance. For 2-3m cables balanced cables are EXACTLY THE SAME in terms of quality as single ended. Difference is in the way your signal goes from your device to your speakers. This is a cable, not DAC! What is this bullsh*t you all talk about... better soundstage, better imaging, better etc. There are NO DIFFERENCE except the volume because you put more voltage through the balanced cable! Don't talk stupid things.

That is what I thought was the case. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

 

[Mhog55]

That is what I thought was the case. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Yeah, except that's not the case

 

[icefalkon]

Let me tell you something about balanced connections. I got the headphones before 2-3 months and for your surprise "balanced cable maniacs" there are NO DIFFERENCE between balanced and single ended cables in terms of audio quality. Not only on this headphones but in any other at all. Balanced cables are made to remove the noise if your cable is 15 meters and go around other cables etc. Balanced cables are good for studio use when you use long cables for long distance. For 2-3m cables balanced cables are EXACTLY THE SAME in terms of quality as single ended. Difference is in the way your signal goes from your device to your speakers. This is a cable, not DAC! What is this bullsh*t you all talk about... better soundstage, better imaging, better etc. There are NO DIFFERENCE except the volume because you put more voltage through the balanced cable! Don't talk stupid things.

LOL wow is this ridiculous. Utter nonsense.

 

[Audiophile2019]

LOL wow is this ridiculous. Utter nonsense.

Yeap.. Doesn't make sense to me.. Actually balanced cables make HUGE difference..

 

[PolloLoco]

That is what I thought was the case. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

LOL. You just liked a post that, among other nonsense, stated that only volume is affected by an increase in voltage.

 

[tokyodan]

LOL. You just liked a post that, among other nonsense, stated that only volume is affected by an increase in voltage.

Please explain to me how it isn't.