[Skylab]

I find these arguments tiresome, because one headphone in a particular rig can sound worse than another; but then you change to another Amp, DAC or even different tubes/opamps or cables, and then the other headphone now sounds better.  I'm not going to go into the sonic characteristics of the HD800 and LCD-2 again, I've done that before.  I want to stress the importance of gear synergy.
 
(snip)

I see a lot of HD800 bashing because it seems to be the cool thing to do, but I've found that almost every headphone I've tried will have areas they excel in and areas that they don't, which changes depending on the gear I am using.  Don't say that I'm basically just tuning my system to adjust for the flaws in my HD800, because I'm doing the same with the LCD-2 as well, finding the best combination to suit either phone.


 

Larry, I agree with Kevin and others, what a great post. Couldn't agree with you more - it is the sum of the parts that make the sound.

 

[epocs]

QFT. Great post! If only more people on these forums thought these things out.
 
Quote:

I find these arguments tiresome, because one headphone in a particular rig can sound worse than another; but then you change to another Amp, DAC or even different tubes/opamps or cables, and then the other headphone now sounds better.  I'm not going to go into the sonic characteristics of the HD800 and LCD-2 again, I've done that before.  I want to stress the importance of gear synergy.
 
My Eddie Current ZDT with Tung Sol 5751 tube is perfect for my re-cabled HD800 and too dark for my LCD-2.  Some people have commented that it's the best they've ever heard the HD800 sound, or the best they've ever heard period.  If I change to brighter tubes like my Synvania Gold Pin 5751 then the LCD-2 sound slightly better, but the HD800 don't get worse unless I'm with the stock cable (I'm currently using Warren Audio X10 or Locus Design Hyperion which take the edge off).  All the complaints I've read about the HD800 in this thread are non-existent with my particular rig - the bass is strong and deep and the treble is smooth and grain free.  On the other hand, my Woo WA6 with Sylvania VT-231 tubes and Sophia Princess 274b is perfect for my LCD-2 and too bright and bass-lite with my HD800.  All my complaints about the LCD-2 being dark disappear with this rig.  And with this rig I can see how many of the HD800 complaints can be valid, but I can improve the HD800 by changing to some RCA 6DE7 and an Amperex GZ34, at which point the LCD-2 seem dull and closed in again.  
 
Basically, If I only had one or the other rig then my impressions would be limited, and sometimes contrary to what many other people think.  Associated gear is extremely important when reporting about the sound of a headphone.  It's an all inclusive package made up of individual components, that work better or worse in combination.  So I use the WA6 > LCD-2 combo in my bedroom, and the ZDT > HD800 combo in my basement rig, keeping the best pairings together.  If I only had the WA6 amp, which phone is better would depend on which tubes and cable I was using.  With the ZDT amp the HD800 seems to beat the LCD-2 no matter what tubes I use (so far Tung Sol 5751, Sylvania Gold Pin 5751, GE black plate 5751).
 
The reason why I think my ZDT > HD800 combo beats the WA6 > LCD-2 combo, even if the LCD-2 have better synergy with the WA6 than the ZDT, is likely because the ZDT is a better amp than the WA6.  The WA6 can distort and run out of juice at loud volumes with the LCD-2, while the HD800 don't do that on the WA6.  The ZDT can play the LCD-2 to extremely high levels with nightclub levels of bass, without distortion, unlike the WA6.  If I could find a better tube for the ZDT/LCD-2 or an amp that is better than the WA6 and has better synergy with the LCD-2 than my ZDT, then I very well might discover that the LCD-2 pass up my HD800 for me.  
 
So far I'm still looking and haven't given up hope.  Someday I'll find my quad of Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and try one in the ZDT with LCD-2, since those tubes were brighter and worked best with my dark sounding O2 in my old GES amp.  I'm keeping an open mind, but so far with the gear that I have the HD800 beats the LCD-2.  
 
I see a lot of HD800 bashing because it seems to be the cool thing to do, but I've found that almost every headphone I've tried will have areas they excel in and areas that they don't, which changes depending on the gear I am using.  Don't say that I'm basically just tuning my system to adjust for the flaws in my HD800, because I'm doing the same with the LCD-2 as well, finding the best combination to suit either phone.
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

it would be interesting to see the median age of people and where their preference goes. The hearing ability diminushes when we grow older, especially in the high frequency, right ?
So maybe (that's just an hypothesis), in general people who are older tend to be less bothered by the hd800 (and bright headphones in general).
 
Edit : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbycusis
Edit2 :
 
Pertes en dB : loss in dB
Graves : lows
Aigues : highs
"ans" : years
 
So there's already a loss of -25dB, for a 40 year old man, in the 6k region ?

Hold on there junior, I'm 60 and the 6kHz-10kHz peak in the HD-800 bothers me to no end.  I can still hear to 19.5kHz just fine so don't throw us all in the same dust bin, ok?  

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

Hold on there junior, I'm 60 and the 6kHz-10kHz peak in the HD-800 bothers me to no end.  I can still hear to 19.5kHz just fine so don't throw us all in the same dust bin, ok?  

I'm 25, with great hearing and the 800 doesn't bother me (except for exaggerating some already sibilant records), so I agree here, the age grouping thing is far too broad of a generalization.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Hold on there junior, I'm 60 and the 6kHz-10kHz peak in the HD-800 bothers me to no end.  I can still hear to 19.5kHz just fine so don't throw us all in the same dust bin, ok?  

 Eh? You're 60 and you can hear to 19.5khz? What planet are you from and when do they plan to invade Earth with their superior faculties?

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

I find these arguments tiresome, because one headphone in a particular rig can sound worse than another; but then you change to another Amp, DAC or even different tubes/opamps or cables, and then the other headphone now sounds better.  I'm not going to go into the sonic characteristics of the HD800 and LCD-2 again, I've done that before.  I want to stress the importance of gear synergy.
 
My Eddie Current ZDT with Tung Sol 5751 tube is perfect for my re-cabled HD800 and too dark for my LCD-2.  Some people have commented that it's the best they've ever heard the HD800 sound, or the best they've ever heard period.  If I change to brighter tubes like my Synvania Gold Pin 5751 then the LCD-2 sound slightly better, but the HD800 don't get worse unless I'm with the stock cable (I'm currently using Warren Audio X10 or Locus Design Hyperion which take the edge off).  All the complaints I've read about the HD800 in this thread are non-existent with my particular rig - the bass is strong and deep and the treble is smooth and grain free.  On the other hand, my Woo WA6 with Sylvania VT-231 tubes and Sophia Princess 274b is perfect for my LCD-2 and too bright and bass-lite with my HD800.  All my complaints about the LCD-2 being dark disappear with this rig.  And with this rig I can see how many of the HD800 complaints can be valid, but I can improve the HD800 by changing to some RCA 6DE7 and an Amperex GZ34, at which point the LCD-2 seem dull and closed in again.  
 
Basically, If I only had one or the other rig then my impressions would be limited, and sometimes contrary to what many other people think.  Associated gear is extremely important when reporting about the sound of a headphone.  It's an all inclusive package made up of individual components, that work better or worse in combination.  So I use the WA6 > LCD-2 combo in my bedroom, and the ZDT > HD800 combo in my basement rig, keeping the best pairings together.  If I only had the WA6 amp, which phone is better would depend on which tubes and cable I was using.  With the ZDT amp the HD800 seems to beat the LCD-2 no matter what tubes I use (so far Tung Sol 5751, Sylvania Gold Pin 5751, GE black plate 5751).
 
The reason why I think my ZDT > HD800 combo beats the WA6 > LCD-2 combo, even if the LCD-2 have better synergy with the WA6 than the ZDT, is likely because the ZDT is a better amp than the WA6.  The WA6 can distort and run out of juice at loud volumes with the LCD-2, while the HD800 don't do that on the WA6.  The ZDT can play the LCD-2 to extremely high levels with nightclub levels of bass, without distortion, unlike the WA6.  If I could find a better tube for the ZDT/LCD-2 or an amp that is better than the WA6 and has better synergy with the LCD-2 than my ZDT, then I very well might discover that the LCD-2 pass up my HD800 for me.  
 
So far I'm still looking and haven't given up hope.  Someday I'll find my quad of Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 and try one in the ZDT with LCD-2, since those tubes were brighter and worked best with my dark sounding O2 in my old GES amp.  I'm keeping an open mind, but so far with the gear that I have the HD800 beats the LCD-2.  
 
I see a lot of HD800 bashing because it seems to be the cool thing to do, but I've found that almost every headphone I've tried will have areas they excel in and areas that they don't, which changes depending on the gear I am using.  Don't say that I'm basically just tuning my system to adjust for the flaws in my HD800, because I'm doing the same with the LCD-2 as well, finding the best combination to suit either phone.
 

Very good post, Larry.  And I guarantee when the LCD-3 comes out and has a more neutral tone and weighs less, the LCD-2 fans will be bashing the LCD-2.  This is nothing new here.  I think it's great that we live in a time when there are so many options that fit everyone's needs.  Not everyone will like every or even most phones.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Quote:

Hold on there junior, I'm 60 and the 6kHz-10kHz peak in the HD-800 bothers me to no end.  I can still hear to 19.5kHz just fine so don't throw us all in the same dust bin, ok?  

 Eh? You're 60 and you can hear to 19.5khz? What planet are you from and when do they plan to invade Earth with their superior faculties?

 
I'm just careful to always wear my tin foil hat!!!
 

 

[rgs9200m]

Thanks feifan for the good words and I enjoyed your comprehensive and very interesting post.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Thanks for the validation guys.  
 
And Towert7, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that.  It was just a culmination of everything I felt as I read a few more pages in this thread.  I've been watching the thread since the beginning, but have only posted here once before.  That post was poorly worded and irritating, so I had some time to think about it before I posted again.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

 I've been watching the thread since the beginning, but have only posted here once before.  That post was poorly worded and irritating, so I had some time to think about it before I posted again.

 Ha. That must be the most honest thing ever posted on Head-Fi. Congratulations.  

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

 
And Towert7, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that. 

Yay.  Now I feel better.

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I see a lot of HD800 bashing because it seems to be the cool thing to do

I would feel sad if this referred to my posts.
I just state me opinions and preferences.

I hope you didn't loose sight of the bigger core message of HeadphoneAddict's post.
 

 
That's the second time you've asked me if I've lost sight of the bigger message.
No need to worry about me, I usually get the general concept of peoples posts.  I sometimes just have specific questions, so I ask specific questions.
 

 

[sokolov91]

The HD 800 might not be nearly as in fashion as it was... but I don't know if it is necessarily fair to say "it is cool to hate the HD 800".
 
I mean you have just as many people loving them for everything you do well as you do people disliking them for what they don't do well... Seems pretty fair to me.
 
Sure system matching can help to a degree, and any headphone will have an advantage in a custom tailored system... but let us be reasonable - you can't tame a 6 dB spike with tubes and cables alone... You are talking severely coloured gear at this point that I am not so sure actually exists. I have no doubt your HD 800 tailoring has been well though out and well tested, but I don't know it is necessarily enough to make people change their mind if they don't already like the HD 800.... the same way you still don't seem to like the LCD-2 as much as others despite any system matching... As long as people are giving the product a fair shot and listening with an open mind, I would think their opinion is valid. I would never system match for a headphone I didn't like off the bat because ultimately I really don't see that drastic of a change. Change yes, fixes no.
 
I think it is just easiest to stand by the classic "we all hear differently" because there is no need to justify why you like something... we are all here just sharing opinions...
 
Some are more interested in the possibilities of why we perceive certain ways, and others more about synergy... doesn't mean we are out to get each other.
 
I have been critical of the HD 800 in the past, much more so before I owned them - and I still am now, but I adore them for what they are. They are excellent. I do not think they are worth what they retail for though, or their MSRP... it is simply too much when you look at the ortho offerings. The LCD-2 have their faults too... even if they might not be sonic .
 
The LCD-2 are perfect to me now at 20, who knows what I will like in 20-30-40 years and even then we have many middle aged head-fiers who adore the LCD-2 and the HD 800... there doesn't seem to be any way to guarantee what people will like or how they perceive things and that is fine but I am sure each person is correct to their ears more often that not.
 

 

[vcoheda]

spot on headphoneaddict.
 
headphone/amp matching (as well as all other components) is so important - is everything really. my LCD2 sounds amazing through my BA, but only very good through my Bal Home. the reverse holds for my HD800. it shines with the Bal Home but not as much with the BA. source and cables also factor into the equation. my G08 gives a different sound than my Sony. use of silver ICs sounds different than pure copper.
 
unfortunately, it is for this reason that impressions while fun and interesting to read provide much less guidance than we think. you will only know what you think of a headphone when using it in your system. and you will only know a headphone's strengths and weaknesses by using it in various setups.

 

[grokit]

I like both headphones quite a bit and I agree with Larry's post completely. Just another piece of the puzzle here at Head-fi: sorting through the information, and filtering out the BS. I don't get frustrated by it because I find that it's all part of the learning process, even if what I am learning is information culling and human rhetorical psychology. It can get tiresome, but it's also a window into how a completely diverse group of people that happen to have an affinity for headphones in common can sort through and interpret this kind of information. But yes, synergy is evreything; it's virtually impossible to evaluate any piece of gear (especially headphones) thoroughly in the isolation of a single setup.
Even though it could be more efficient I enjoy the process and don't spend much time on other forums