[DeadEars]

Hey Austin,
With your budget, you've pretty well exhausted it after buying the LCD-2's!  Or is that your amp budget?
 
I'm a big believer in DIY as a learning experience.  The only issue with building tube amps is you really need to be careful, since most tube equipment operates on lethal voltages.  As in: "kill you dead." 
 
Thiings like Pete Millet's "starving student" amp (http://www.pmillett.com/starving.htm) are a nice place to start to learn about electronics, and to make something that will really sound good.  Or go to the Bottlehead forum and tune in on some of the great kits there (http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=224). 
 
Some of the great old Dynakit amps are available in reproduction form, or if you want to save a lot of money, you can buy a vintage version and rebuild it (see http://www.curcioaudio.com/dynadr_3.htm).  If you did that, my recommendation would be a Dynaco integrated amp, the SCA-35.  Turns out it has just the right amount of power to drive the LCD's really well.  The original Dynaco manual even has instructions for how to hook it up.  The only downside is that It's not a very modern circuit, but it can be made to sound really really good.  And it would be "old school" which would probably please your dad!  By the way, Klipsch Cornwalls with McIntosh MC225 amps really do sound very good, although the best I've ever heard MC225's sound is with vintage Quad electrostatic speakers.
 
I have a Dynaco SCA-35 somewhere in the stack on my TBD shelf, awaiting time to work on it. I think I paid $15 for it at a yard sale.   I'm looking forward to hearing my LCD-2's driven by it.  As I write this, I'm listening to Buffalo Tom metal on my LCD-2's driven by a vintage 1959 Eico HF-81, most of which started life as kits. Mine cost me $35 to buy, plus maybe $150 or so in parts (not including vintage tubes).  A lot of the late 50's through early 70's amps make really fine headphone amps, with claimed outputs in the 15-35 watt range (usually optimistic).  With judicious use of modern parts, and a little upgrading -- especially in the power supply -- many of these amps will go toe-to-toe with today's dedicated headphone amps.  And you can learn a huge amount by restoring one, plus there are a lot of resources on line to help you -- especially for Dynaco!
 
Hope this helps!
 
Frank
 
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadEars /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hey Austin,
With your budget, you've pretty well exhausted it after buying the LCD-2's!  Or is that your amp budget?
I'm a big believer in DIY as a learning experience.  The only issue with building tube amps is you really need to be careful, since most tube equipment operates on lethal voltages.  As in: "kill you dead." 
Thiings like Pete Millet's "starving student" amp (http://www.pmillett.com/starving.htm) are a nice place to start to learn about electronics, and to make something that will really sound good.  Or go to the Bottlehead forum and tune in on some of the great kits there (http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=224). 
Some of the great old Dynakit amps are available in reproduction form, or if you want to save a lot of money, you can buy a vintage version and rebuild it (see http://www.curcioaudio.com/dynadr_3.htm).  If you did that, my recommendation would be a Dynaco integrated amp, the SCA-35.  Turns out it has just the right amount of power to drive the LCD's really well.  The original Dynaco manual even has instructions for how to hook it up.  The only downside is that It's not a very modern circuit, but it can be made to sound really really good.  And it would be "old school" which would probably please your dad!  By the way, Klipsch Cornwalls with McIntosh MC225 amps really do sound very good, although the best I've ever heard MC225's sound is with vintage Quad electrostatic speakers.
I have a Dynaco SCA-35 somewhere in the stack on my TBD shelf, awaiting time to work on it. I think I paid $15 for it at a yard sale.   I'm looking forward to hearing my LCD-2's driven by it.  As I write this, I'm listening to Buffalo Tom metal on my LCD-2's driven by a vintage 1959 Eico HF-81, most of which started life as kits. Mine cost me $35 to buy, plus maybe $150 or so in parts (not including vintage tubes).  A lot of the late 50's through early 70's amps make really fine headphone amps, with claimed outputs in the 15-35 watt range (usually optimistic).  With judicious use of modern parts, and a little upgrading -- especially in the power supply -- many of these amps will go toe-to-toe with today's dedicated headphone amps.  And you can learn a huge amount by restoring one, plus there are a lot of resources on line to help you -- especially for Dynaco!
Hope this helps!
Frank

Great post Frank!
 

 

[MacedonianHero]

If you're looking for DIY, I would encourage you to hang out in the DIY forums, but for non DIY, I think the Schiit Lyr is a safe recommendation for a great value/performance all around Hybrid amp.  I'm expecting mine to show up this Thursday and will report on it as it burns in.  Be sure to read Jude's review of same.
 
 

Good news Kevin...just did some listening to my LCD-2 + Lyr (arrived today ) and it is a great match. I used the song Magnificent (some really good bass drum at the beginning) from U2's latest album (No Line on the Horizon) and of all the amps I have on hand the punch was the strongest with the Lyr (second the WA2 and the Concerto was the most "polite" in that regard). The WA2 is very good with the LCD-2s IMO, but the Lyr just seems a bit more better suited (and especially for my HE-6s).

With the stock JJ tubes, it is a very clean/neutral amp....I then popped in a pair of Genalex Gold Lion 6922s and now it's every so slightly tubier (and more to my liking).

Please let us know what you think when yours arrives. I'm interested on what you think on how it compares to the other amps you've heard the LCD-2s with.

6W into 32 ohms would be like (3-4W into 50 ohms...please correct me if I'm wrong here....I am a chemical engineer and it's been 20 years since I took an EE course). It does have sufficient "headroom" to play both my LCD-2s and HE-6s.

The bass is certainly more visceral, the mids seem more forward and the treble on the LCD-2s doesn't seem as laid back (when compared to either of my 2 other amps). And it's built like a brick Schiit house.

Now the big question....why is Schiit Audio not charging $899 for this thing?

 

[tunarat]

 
Quote:

Read through most of the thread.
 
I really do not want to muddle up the thread but I mainly want to give a small background and then ask about suggestions for tube amps (lightly mentioned throughout). Please feel free to take this to a pm or ask me to shut up.
 
The skinny:
 
own -
technics 1210 turntable
grado 225s
shure se530
audio technica ad700 (gaming)
 
listen -
postal service
as cities burn
maylene/sons disaster
the antlers
michael hurley
bon iver
margot and the nuclear so and so's
we came as romans
brand new
say anything
etc etc (basically a huge variety either folk or harder stuff)
 
want -
to eventually add an phono preamp and amp to my system to use headphones currently owned. eventually to use speakers as well for others to listen and enjoy the music.
 
thoughts -
--Dad trying to convince me to get mcintosh 225 (275 cant remember which) amp and klipsch speakers (heresy)
--I want to DIY a tube amp
--Would be nice if amp could be fairly versatile
--Interested in purchasing lcd-2's to use (out of the hd800 and similar phones i have a keen interest in these, although will go to a meet in a few weeks so that may be the most beneficial thing as opposed to posting questions....)
--Have a love for tubes
--Budget $1000ish but I am very slow with things (I have the money but it took me two months to finally buy a cartridge for my tt) so I plan to do things in steps so budget is flexible.
--I know getting an amp to be versatile takes away from its superiority of certain skills and its better to have specific amps for specific items. do not care to own 5 amps but could live with 2.
 
Any advice appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Austin

Advice? Advice? you don't need no stinkin' advice. Grab the mac like dad said..... 

 

[log0]

Quote:

 

Advice? Advice? you don't need no stinkin' advice. Grab the mac like dad said..... 

McIntosh tube amps are incredible amplifiers. I had the pleasure of listening to the flagship McIntosh tube amp, the 2301 strapped to a pair of Reference 3a Grand Veenas. This was my proper introduction to hifi audio. There are many people selling MC275 on Audiogon you may want to try there, although your $1000 budget won't get you far.
 
If you're a single man living by yourself with space in your home, personally I'd save for a proper speaker setup. If you're looking for tube amps in particular, I've also heard that the Audio Research reference series makes some top of the line products. Once you start looking at prices for decent tube amps, you'll see why you made it to head-fi
 

 

[eertelppa]

Frank,
 
Thanks for the wonderful advice. Yeah that $1000 was aside from the headphones.
 
You mention how the dynaco amp would match well with the LCD-2 due to the power of each. How does one figure out compatibility (at least on paper and by specs) between headphones (or speakers) and amplifiers? I guess the watts produced by the amp need to be in the range required for the headphones to perform? (keep in mind one of my few bad/horrible grades in college was an electrical engineering course, in which i spent all my free time in the prof's office, I had to take while studying petroleum)
 
And I love the look of the dynaco's and that may be the right ticket for me, although I am still itching to do something from the ground up (I will spend even more time in the DIY section then I already do!) Think I may make a starving student just to get all the kinks out and get my hands dirty.
 
 
tunarat and log0,
 
Thanks for the advice and yes I realize how amazing they are. My father owns two (I assume for mono or something) of the 225s and he bought them probably 10 years ago or so (although I am almost 99% sure he did not pay ~2k for each of them, will prob ask him later out of curiosity). The problem is I do not want to save up and buy something so expensive for the purpose of driving speakers alone. Personally I would rather spend the 300-800 bucks and the time to DIY amp that can run some headphones (would be great if it could run klipsch or similar speakers) and if needed later get or make another amp for speakers.
 
It is one of the least desires of mine to own 7 amps, 6 heaphones, a set of speakers, etc etc. I DO realize though that it is frowned upon to attempt to have 1 amp to do everything and be the end all. I realize this approach would instead make maybe only one of the 6 headphones shine 100% but have the rest of them at 80% and under. (does that make sense at all?) I just would prefer to end up with 2 amps (maybe 3 max) that are fairly versatile and are great at what they do (maybe not the best of the best)
 
Others,
 
It is not about pleasing my dad or getting something similar, it is just a lot of influence from his end because it is my only personal contact with high-fi stuff. And of course he pushes it because it is what he owns and feels is 'best'. Although I DO NOT need best. I would love 'best' for my money and to buy something I will not have to replace. Hence spending extra to get something and be done with it that way next purchase is not an upgrade but a set of speakers, headphones, another amp, etc etc. A few pairs of headphones, an amp (or two if needed), set of speakers, and my tt and records would be ideal.
 
And yes it seems like the EHHA, Bijou, Dynaco, or something similar may be a route I would have to take if I DIY and want tubes. If b22 is better all around (even though it is ss well may have to consider it, do not want to rule something out entirely)
 
Everyone thanks for the great advice. I think the meet in Austin will be a great learning experience for me. My turntable is just sitting there with all my records on the shelf waiting to be used. So not in a rush (obviously, it took me two months to end up buying a cartridge) but want to make an economical, wise, and all around high end decision that will last a long time.
 
Not sure why I am leaning towards owning the LCD-2s but they seem like a great choice if you are gonna own 2 or 3 headphones at the end of the day.
 
 
Thanks again,
 
Austin
 
ps: feel free to pm me any responses as I feel I am taking away from the thread's purpose even though it is a community to help people I do not want others to get bogged down by off topic talk

 

[DeadEars]

Quote:

Frank,
 
Thanks for the wonderful advice. Yeah that $1000 was aside from the headphones.
 
You mention how the dynaco amp would match well with the LCD-2 due to the power of each. How does one figure out compatibility (at least on paper and by specs) between headphones (or speakers) and amplifiers? I guess the watts produced by the amp need to be in the range required for the headphones to perform? (keep in mind one of my few bad/horrible grades in college was an electrical engineering course, in which i spent all my free time in the prof's office, I had to take while studying petroleum)
 
And I love the look of the dynaco's and that may be the right ticket for me, although I am still itching to do something from the ground up (I will spend even more time in the DIY section then I already do!) Think I may make a starving student just to get all the kinks out and get my hands dirty.
 

 
Glad I could get you thinking about some alternatives!
 
First, another plug for DIY.  The actual cost of building your own amp is actually pretty small in terms of parts costs (depending on the sources you use).  What gets expensive is commercializing an amp.  Then you have to be concerned with attractive design & paint, quality casework, layout for production efficiencies, labor costs to produce, availablitiy of parts, and the overhead for production/marketing/advertising and personnel.  All of these additional costs are "baked into" the price for a commercial amp and account for the majority of the costs.  DIY can give you the essence without all the fluff.  And if you get good at it, you can produce gear that rivals the best that commercial makers can produce, since you can do things like buy vintage vacuum tubes that are not available in commercial quantitites, or use customized building approaches that are hard to cost-justify in a commercial product.
 
In other words, if you have a good DIY design, it is a heck of a bargain.  For a beginner, the kit-based approach is really fairly foolproof, especially if you are interested in learning and not just cranking out one piece of gear and then hanging up your soldering iron.
 
On to your questions.  The Dynaco SCA-35 as a headphone amp makes sense for a few reasons:
* power matching -- you're right, you don't want too much or too little power and the Dynaco is "just right"
* impedence matching -- the LCD-2's are low impedence headphones.  Many traditional headphone amps struggle to deliver their rated power into low impedence headphones.  The Dynaco will not.
* cost to acquire/improve -- the SCA-35's were made in very large numbers.  They are not very valuable, so therefore cheap to buy
* opportunity to learn -- Most of these are half a century old.  they'll need to be rebuilt.  But there are lots of places that offer parts, circuit boards and tweaks specifically for these old amps
* opportunity to improve sound quality with judicious DIY tinkering.  Because these were designed as kits, they are easy to work on, and there are a great many opportunities to improve the sound by upgrading parts quality, enhancing the power supply design, etc.
 
 
I'm going to give you a more detailed answer about finding the best match between headphones and amps.  The short answer is "use your ears."  Things that might not work on paper may nonetheless sound pretty darn good.  But you ask about what makes a good match. 
 
The answer is a bit complicated, but it comes down to running the amplifier within its optimum conditions.  It's kinda like having a Mustang Cobra 350 and driving it under different conditions.  If all you do is drive it in a city and never exceed 25mph, you will not get the most out of the car.  The same thing happens with an amp.  It is happiest (and produces its best-quality output) when it is operated within its power envelop, where it does the best job of passing a signal to the output device -- speakers or headphones.  If you are running a 350-watt amplifier into a headphone load, it can be done, but the results are not going to sound as good as if the load is well-matched to the power.  The nice thing about the Dynaco in this application is that it makes about 12-15 watts per channel.  Since the maximum power handling of the LCD-2 is about 15 watts, the power is not a problem. 
 
Another part of the answer is impedence matching.  Power has to be delivered to a load in order to create work, which in our case means moving air to create sound.  Speakers and headphones are simply electically-driven air pumps.  But the characteristics of the load are affected by the components used to generate the power.  Between the amp and the sound are a bunch of connections, sometimes additional components like resistors, chokes or coils, or capacitors, and lots and lots of wire.  Each of these components offers different kinds of resistance to electricity.  The nature of the electrical resistance is different depending on the kind of components used and the frequency of the signal currents.  "Impedence" is a measurement value used to calculate the net amount of resistance to electricity created by all of these components used to pump the air and make sound.  When you add them all up, they act like a big resistor.  Unfortunately, it isn't a constant resistor.  Impedence can vary across the audio frequency spectrum, and mathematically weird things happen depending on the mechanical and electrical properties of the components used in the air pump.  This has audible consequences in the nature of the output signal (things like phase shift and group delay or intermodulation of signals).  Every audio load has a "nominal" impedence, which can be calculated in different ways.  But you can think of it as the average resistance across the frequency spectrum, usually weighted based on the frequencies that matter most in audio.
 
In the case of the Dynaco SCA-35, the output transformer has several "taps" on it for matching the amplifier impedence to the load.  There are taps for 8 ohms and 16 ohms.  To hook up headphones, a stereo headphone jack is connected with the ground going to the speaker terminal ground, and the 16 ohm taps are used for the two stereo inputs. For each stereo channel, between the jack and the 16 ohm tap, the manual instructions suggest inserting a 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor in each channel.  They suggest that this value might be reduced to 47 ohms for some headphones, depending on the music level (test), which is probably better for the LCD-2's although I haven't had a chance to test myself to find the best sounding resistor value.
 
Of course, you can also hook up speakers.  Most of the speakers of the 1960's were fairly high efficiency.  They did not require a lot of power to drive them.  So something like the Klipsh speakers you mentioned would very likely work quite well with the Dynaco amp, although I personally haven't heard that combination.  And high-efficiency speakers are coming back in a big way, so there are a lot more modern brands available that could also be a good match.
 
For my mouldy old Dynaco SCA-35, I'll probably replace almost everything by the time I'm done futzing with it.  Dynaco used really cheap parts for things like the circuit boards and the switches & connectors.  But it's a really sweet sounding amp, and really delivers music well.  Highly recommended!  Maybe you'll get lucky and find one that was lovingly cared for and has a pristine faceplate.  At least most of the parts are easily available and lots of online support from the Dynaco Doctor to the AA forums to DIY Audio.  I think you'd have fun with it & learn a lot.
 
Frank

 

[songforyou]

For DeadEars:
 
How is the MAD EAR+ with the LCD-2s?  I have a pair of HD600s with Stephan audioart cable and have had them for years.  I got the LCDs a week ago and have been doing a lot of back and forth using a DACport I received the same day.  Very different presentation between the two phones.
 
I have a MAD line switcher and like dealing with Lloyd.  I'm also impressed with the CEntrance folks.  I like tubes generally, but have read that the DACmini is a very good match.  I find the LCDs pleasantly full and natural and don't think they need any added warmth.  My musical tastes run all over: baroque, opera, jazz, traditional and alt country, rock and so on. 
 
Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

[MacedonianHero]

For DeadEars:
 
How is the MAD EAR+ with the LCD-2s?  I have a pair of HD600s with Stephan audioart cable and have had them for years.  I got the LCDs a week ago and have been doing a lot of back and forth using a DACport I received the same day.  Very different presentation between the two phones.
 
I have a MAD line switcher and like dealing with Lloyd.  I'm also impressed with the CEntrance folks.  I like tubes generally, but have read that the DACmini is a very good match.  I find the LCDs pleasantly full and natural and don't think they need any added warmth.  My musical tastes run all over: baroque, opera, jazz, traditional and alt country, rock and so on. 
 
Any suggestions would be appreciated!

The max power output for the MAD Ear+HD is 100mW:

http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/HD.htm

I did have the MAD Ear+HD until very recently (owned it for about 2 years) and thought it was the best go to amp for any Grado can out there. It worked very well with my HD650s as well. But I would not recommend the pairing with the LCD-2s. YMMV.

 

[songforyou]

Thanks for the tip.  That's sort of what I thought.  I'm looking at the DACmini and also the Lyr.  The appeal of the mini is the added DAC obviously.  Most of my listening is vinyl.  I had a HRT Streamer+ but a power surge fried it.  I like simple computer solutions and that's why I sprung for a DACport while waiting for the DACmini to restock.  Quite pleased with the sound and it drives the LCDs quite well.  If I went with the Lyr, I'd need to do something for a DAC too.

 

[USAudio]

Has anyone tried the HeadRoom BUDA with the LCD-2's (or HE-6's for that matter) ?
http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-balanced-ultra-desktop-amp-buda.php
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Thanks for the tip.  That's sort of what I thought.  I'm looking at the DACmini and also the Lyr.  The appeal of the mini is the added DAC obviously.  Most of my listening is vinyl.  I had a HRT Streamer+ but a power surge fried it.  I like simple computer solutions and that's why I sprung for a DACport while waiting for the DACmini to restock.  Quite pleased with the sound and it drives the LCDs quite well.  If I went with the Lyr, I'd need to do something for a DAC too.

You could use the DAC in the DACPort to drive the Lyr if you wanted to.  That's not a bad DAC you know.
 
 

 

[WhiteCrow]

schiit lyr.

 

[eertelppa]

Frank,
 
I have printed our conversations and still need to do some reading up in my electrical engineering textbook to remind myself of some things (which i most likely did not understand in the first place; graduated college 2 years ago so it should still be somewhat fresh)
 
I will look into a starving student and a dynaco. I think if those go well I will graduate to a b22 or bijou or something similar (still prefer those tubes though!). I have the patience and hardworking aspect that I know with time and effort I would produce a top notch product or at least do my best. Also can have my dad help with a case and stuff if needed (he has a lathe, milling machine, etc etc)
 
Thanks again for the great advice. The only thing that was a little head scratching was the amps, resistance, impedance, etc, although I will do some researching of my own to make more light of your additional comments. 
 
Take care and I have a lot of projects ahead of me. Best of luck to yourself and I am sure the upcoming meet will expose a lot of questions and more importantly answers to lead me a well rounded system. Would definitely love to be able to own a RS-1 (vintage), LCD-2, one or two other headphones, a pair of speakers, and only need one phono-preamp, and two or so amps [tube or hybrid or ss, in that order ]! Not sure if it is possible but will take it as it comes.
 
Regards,
 
Austin

 

[GTL]

How does the Lyr compare to the Concerto with the LCD2?

I can say that the Lyr + LCD-2 = great pairing.

While they can sound great from a good headphone amp, they are still orthos and benefit from the added power.