[ethan7000]

I'm not sure about the Anniversary, but the K712 has stronger sub bass than the HD650.  Last time I compared the Anniversary and HD650 (just one time at a meet) I thought it did as well.

Spoiler: Obligatory graphs

 

Then it would have stronger sub bass than the 580/600 for sure...

 

[tdockweiler]

  I'm not sure about the Anniversary, but the K712 has stronger sub bass than the HD650.  Last time I compared the Anniversary and HD650 (just one time at a meet) I thought it did as well.
 
 
 

Spoiler: Obligatory graphs

 

 
I don't trust that K712 graph. If it really sounded like that graph than it'd probably sound bad to me. That graph makes it look too bassy! No way!
 
It seems like some people have thought the HD-600 and 650 had nearly the same amounts of low-bass. The 650 I have clearly had better low-bass presence than the 600, Q701 AND Annie. I would say it had just slightly more than the Annie I had. There's some different graphs of the HD-650 out there showing some pairs with slightly better low bass (but more distortion). The Annie did seem to have more mid/upper bass though. The HD-650 doesn't even really sound like it has a mid-bass hump at all really. It just sounds flat with slightly rolled off treble.
 
I had two HD-650s in the past and didn't like them much. Not sure what changed but it wasn't my equipment!
 
There is also this goofy raw graph:
 

The HD-650 I have gets more use for movies/games just because it has acceptable levels of low bass for me and isn't V-shaped.
HD-650 also sounds good straight out of my TV jack..well decent enough for short periods of time.

 

[chicolom]

   
I don't trust that K712 graph. If it really sounded like that graph than it'd probably sound bad to me. That graph makes it look too bassy! No way!
 

 
I've said several times that the K712 is darker than the Anniversary, and I thought that was the reason you disliked the Anniversary in the first place!  So I'm not sure why you still think you'd prefer the K712 to the Anniversary?? 

 
I guess you'll have to try it for yourself one day, but I'm not sure you'd like it if you disliked the Anniversary...
 
 
BTW, I bought a HD650 last week and compared it directly the K712 and the latter had more low bass. 
 
I'll repost my comparison from MLE's thread here...
 

---

 
 
 
 
 
BTW,  I just picked up some HD650s to audition out of curiosity. 
 
 

 
 
After trying them out last night, they're pretty decent, but they've mainly just reaffirmed my love of the K712s.
 
 
Some impressions:
 
 
Comfort wise, I had kind of forgotten about dat' Sennheiser clamp.  Granted this pair isn't that broken in, but still - it can be an issue.  .  I actually like the way it looks, and I like the lines and curves on Sennheisers full size headphones.  I hear they chip paint off a lot though.  The AKGs feel much loser and more flexible - I can twist and bend them around all over the place.  On the HD650 the whole headphone feels very rigid and not very flexible at all, like a tight piece of plastic.  The pads could stand to be a bit deeper.  They're not as deep as on the PC360.  I'm not a huge fan of how the headband padding fits me either.  There's no padding at the very top of the head which feels a little weird.  Sort of feels like the Audio Techinica wing system.
 
Sound wise, the HD650 signature is pretty good.   Pretty balanced and with a clear a focus on the mids.  That's the same thing I said for the MA900, and the HD650 signature is not too far from the MA900.  The differences are the HD650 has more detail, more refinement, and a slightly more natural timbre.
 
Next to the X1, the HD650 sounds slightly more refined, more mid-rangey, and more intimate.  They're also more boring (sorry ).  The HD650s are like a more buttoned-up version of the X1.  The X1 is like a more open and fun-titled version of the HD650.
 
Next to the K712, it has less bass and less overall body.  I hear some low bass roll off in the HD650, and the mid bass is weaker.  The treble doesn't sound all that different between them.  I don't notice a huge difference in air amounts.  The lighter more midrangey signature makes the HD650 sound a little more "clear" in an immediate comparison (same as with the Q701), but I don't think they're necessarily more detailed.  Mainly more forward and intimate with a mid-range focus.  People always say the HD650 is great because it's nice and full sounding, but the K712 does all that better IMO.  I still prefer the timbre on the K712.   The K712 and HD650 take almost the same volume level on the amp, despite their different impedance.
 
As for the soundstage....it is on the intimate side :\  To be fair, I was warned about it. The HD650's imaging is actually pretty good (especially given the room it has to work with).  The problem is the soundstage itself feels a little tightly compacted (at least for a full size open headphone).  It sounds like someone is taking their hands and fighting to try and hold all the different sounds in tightly together to an extent.  With the K712 it sounds like they give up and relax their hands to let the sounds spill out some.  When I switch to the K712 it almost sounds like someone flipped some 3-D soundstage effect ON.  The placement feels much more relaxed and open.  The Fidelio X1 also reaches out farther to the left and right than the HD650.  Again, the imaging on the HD650 is pretty good, and you could use it for gaming.  It just could use more room to work with, and I personally need more soundstage room in a full-size open-headphone like this in order to live with it.
 
 
What I like about the HD650 is it has a nice balanced signature with lovely mids and good detail.  The intimacy makes the mids very easy to hear.  If you love mids and don't mind intimacy, the HD650 can be great.  Unfortunately that intimacy is a bit of a deal breaker for me.  I wouldn't reach for these when I can get the same performance from the K712 but with a more spacious and open sound.  I prefer several things on the K712: It has more body, better low bass, a more natural timbre (IMO), larger instruments AND a larger more open soundstage (yes, both at the same time), and is more comfortable. 
 
MA900s give you a similar signature with a more open sound than the HD650 but with a bit less refinement, less detail, and a bit less natural timbre.  I've read how some people prefer the HD650 to the HD800, but I know that wouldn't be me.  The HD800 has a delicious soundstage, while the HD650 soundstage leaves a slightly sour aftertaste in my mouth.
 

 

[tdockweiler]

   
I've said several times that the K712 is darker than the Anniversary, and I thought that  was the reason you disliked the Anniversary in the first place!  So I'm not sure why you still think you'd prefer the K712 to the Anniversary?? 

 
I guess you'll have to try it for yourself one day, but I'm not sure you'd like it if you disliked the Anniversary...
 

 
I don't know if that's it really. There's a little more to it. Many different small nit-picks. Did you find the HD-650 to be darker than the Annie (edit: read your review and you said HD-650 and K712 have similar amounts of treble)? You might find this really hard to believe but I found the Annie to be perhaps fuller sounding but more congested and less airy than even my HD-650. Yes, this HD-650 has a good soundstage! It's not that large but there is some air there (rare)! Wow! It doesn't seem compressed at all with my setup and better than the Annie. The Annie I had seemed to have all the air from the Q701 sucked out of it. If the K712 is darker than the HD-650 then I definitely won't like it! HD-650 is my limit on how dark a headphone can be.
 
I've actually heard mids fuller than the HD-650 without them sounding too forward. This seems to be rare though. It was on my DJ100 with specific pads (Pearstone Velours).
 
I think for me the Annie lacked clarity and it's low mids were a little bothersome for me due to how  forward sounding everything was. This is one reason I might prefer the K712.
What I found interesting is how you said the K712 soundstage was more "relaxed and open" in comparison to the HD-650.
 
So basically all I need is a better soundstage than what the Annie had and a more relaxed sound in the low mids.
 
My most perfect headphone is a DJ100 with M50 pads that's open. Too bad that thing is so hard to get the sound perfect. It seems to be too picky with gear to really enjoy sometimes.
 
Modded Q701 mixed with an HD-650 is probably close! Modded Q701 has more treble and less full sounding mids. Bass quantity is now pretty similar I think.
 
Sounds nuts but putting K601 pads on the Q701 gave me similar symptoms as using Annie pads on the Q701 minus the bass.
 
I need to read your old reviews again but if the K712 is just a little less congested and more airy than the Annie than I might like it. If it's darker than this isn't happening I imagine.
 
My K400 EP (only) sure proved me wrong on that one. It's dark but has a large airy soundstage. The complete lack of bass might help things!
 
I'm sure i'll try the K712 eventually when the price drops. I guarantee I'll be the first one to mod it if I do!
 
Oh yeah it's funny hearing people say a K702 variation has more body than the HD-650. Just 5 years ago people would have said this would be impossible!! It's nice to know. Luckily nobody has yet called the HD-650 thin sounding

I heard that for the HD-600 and it just baffles me. Then someone tells me that's why they use tube amps with it..to warm it up. HD-600 needs to be warmer?! Huh?!
 
EDIT:
 
Nothing wrong with the Annie and just stupid preferences. Don't hurt me people!!
 
LOL I should do a modded Q701 vs K712 review just to annoy people. I'll leave my modded Q701 fanboy comments for the other thread

 
K712 is off my radar since I can't afford it! Maybe when it hits $300 without Paypal/Ebay. I just bought a $250 amp so that will need to wait unless I win the lottery.

 

[chicolom]

   
I don't know if that's it really. There's a little more to it. Many different small nit-picks. Did you find the HD-650 to be darker than the Annie (edit: read your review and you said HD-650 and K712 have similar amounts of treble)? You might find this really hard to believe but I found the Annie to be perhaps fuller sounding but more congested and less airy than even my HD-650.
 
I found the K712 and HD650 to be fairly similar in the treble.  I did try an HD650 at a meet a while ago and I actually thought it had slightly more air but less full sounding than the Anniversary, so that would agree with your impressions.  I don't know what was up with that HD650 though because the one I had last week sounded similar in air to the K712 and the K712 was fuller sounding still.  I think I might have been thrown off by the mids on the HD650 sounding a little more forward and confusing it with air?  I don't know.
 
 
I think for me the Annie lacked clarity and it's low mids were a little bothersome for me due to how  forward sounding everything was. This is one reason I might prefer the K712.
What I found interesting is how you said the K712 soundstage was more "relaxed and open" in comparison to the HD-650.
So basically all I need is a better soundstage than what the Annie had and a more relaxed sound in the low mids.
 
I need to read your old reviews again but if the K712 is just a little less congested and more airy than the Annie than I might like it. If it's darker than this isn't happening I imagine.
 
Well, the K712s soundstage is a little more open and less intimate than the Anniversary.  So it can be less congested in that sense.  But it's smoother sounding and slightly less airy.  Less upper mids, and I think more lower mids.
 
 
You should sell one of your amps/dacs and try it yourself probably

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

The K702 Annie DEFINITELY has better bass extension than the HD650. i compared them directly. The HD650 had that sub bass roll off that the Annie easily surpassed. The HD650 was more emphasized in mid bass though.

 

[jmsaxon69]

I'm so glad I just kind of stopped buying headphones and enjoy my K702 65th.  They sound amazing to me and I guess it's like all forms of audio or any hobby for that matter, sometimes we get buried in the "I want" mode and forget to enjoy what we have.  I'm still a bit curious to hear the K712, but not as much as I was, it's good to get away from this site for a while! 

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

You should be glad. If I could have the K702 Annie sound in my MA900, I'd be just a little bit happier. The K702 Annie is right at the point that I consider diminishing returns at it's strongest.

 

[Thujone]

If the 580/600 has better bass extension I better stay miles away from these

 
The Annies have a steeper bass hump whereas the HD600/580 has a much more gradual transition. Plus, when it comes to fatigue from sound, I only have issues with treble. That said, the HD600/580's have very low energy treble which allows me to turn up the rest of the range a little louder. This along with the more balanced response in the bass and lower mids on the Senns gives a presentation that seems to have better extension. I would imagine that the stronger mid-bass on the HD650 would make its sub-bass presentation very lacking in comparison.
 

 
As for the soundstage....it is on the intimate side :\  To be fair, I was warned about it. The HD650's imaging is actually pretty good (especially given the room it has to work with).  The problem is the soundstage itself feels a little tightly compacted (at least for a full size open headphone).  It sounds like someone is taking their hands and fighting to try and hold all the different sounds in tightly together to an extent.  With the K712 it sounds like they give up and relax their hands to let the sounds spill out some.  When I switch to the K712 it almost sounds like someone flipped some 3-D soundstage effect ON.  The placement feels much more relaxed and open.  The Fidelio X1 also reaches out farther to the left and right than the HD650.  Again, the imaging on the HD650 is pretty good, and you could use it for gaming.  It just could use more room to work with, and I personally need more soundstage room in a full-size open-headphone like this in order to live with it.

 
I think you really nailed it in this description. The HD600/580 sounds almost like a closed headphone in comparison to these AKG's. This is the first time I've experienced a headphone that is this spacious and airy. Instrument separation is so great because it seems like each instrument is coming from a different location whereas the Senns sound like everything is in the same spot. It's very possible that this simple difference in presentation is why I find the HD580's to have a better bass extension due to a more closed in sound. I will say, however, that the difference in extension is certainly not night and day to my ears. The Annies just don't have a very forward presentation with sub-bass when compared to the lower mids and upper mid-bass.

 

[joebobbilly]

The K702 Annie DEFINITELY has better bass extension than the HD650. i compared them directly. The HD650 had that sub bass roll off that the Annie easily surpassed. The HD650 was more emphasized in mid bass though.

 
+1. To casual listeners the HD650 sounds like it has more bass (several non-audiophile friends affirm this). However, with more careful comparisons, it is easy to notice that the Annies have a more "punchy" bass to them (which is result of better visceral bass extension). The HD650s have more warmth which most attribute to be "bass" but for our purposes is really more of a "mid-bass". So to overgeneralize in a rough analogy...
 
The HD650 bass punches like a slow haymaker... lots of weight and momentum
The Annies punch like a fast jab to the gut... very quick and gives the "oomph" feeling (pardon the poor word choice... it is the best i can do)

 

[joebobbilly]

   
I've said several times that the K712 is darker than the Anniversary, and I thought that was the reason you disliked the Anniversary in the first place!  So I'm not sure why you still think you'd prefer the K712 to the Anniversary?? 

 
I guess you'll have to try it for yourself one day, but I'm not sure you'd like it if you disliked the Anniversary...
 
 
BTW, I bought a HD650 last week and compared it directly the K712 and the latter had more low bass. 
 
I'll repost my comparison from MLE's thread here...
 

---

 
 
 
 
 
BTW,  I just picked up some HD650s to audition out of curiosity. 
 
 

 
 
After trying them out last night, they're pretty decent, but they've mainly just reaffirmed my love of the K712s.
 
 
Some impressions:
 
 
Comfort wise, I had kind of forgotten about dat' Sennheiser clamp.  Granted this pair isn't that broken in, but still - it can be an issue.  .  I actually like the way it looks, and I like the lines and curves on Sennheisers full size headphones.  I hear they chip paint off a lot though.  The AKGs feel much loser and more flexible - I can twist and bend them around all over the place.  On the HD650 the whole headphone feels very rigid and not very flexible at all, like a tight piece of plastic.  The pads could stand to be a bit deeper.  They're not as deep as on the PC360.  I'm not a huge fan of how the headband padding fits me either.  There's no padding at the very top of the head which feels a little weird.  Sort of feels like the Audio Techinica wing system.
 
Sound wise, the HD650 signature is pretty good.   Pretty balanced and with a clear a focus on the mids.  That's the same thing I said for the MA900, and the HD650 signature is not too far from the MA900.  The differences are the HD650 has more detail, more refinement, and a slightly more natural timbre.
 
Next to the X1, the HD650 sounds slightly more refined, more mid-rangey, and more intimate.  They're also more boring (sorry ).  The HD650s are like a more buttoned-up version of the X1.  The X1 is like a more open and fun-titled version of the HD650.
 
Next to the K712, it has less bass and less overall body.  I hear some low bass roll off in the HD650, and the mid bass is weaker.  The treble doesn't sound all that different between them.  I don't notice a huge difference in air amounts.  The lighter more midrangey signature makes the HD650 sound a little more "clear" in an immediate comparison (same as with the Q701), but I don't think they're necessarily more detailed.  Mainly more forward and intimate with a mid-range focus.  People always say the HD650 is great because it's nice and full sounding, but the K712 does all that better IMO.  I still prefer the timbre on the K712.   The K712 and HD650 take almost the same volume level on the amp, despite their different impedance.
 
As for the soundstage....it is on the intimate side :\  To be fair, I was warned about it. The HD650's imaging is actually pretty good (especially given the room it has to work with).  The problem is the soundstage itself feels a little tightly compacted (at least for a full size open headphone).  It sounds like someone is taking their hands and fighting to try and hold all the different sounds in tightly together to an extent.  With the K712 it sounds like they give up and relax their hands to let the sounds spill out some.  When I switch to the K712 it almost sounds like someone flipped some 3-D soundstage effect ON.  The placement feels much more relaxed and open.  The Fidelio X1 also reaches out farther to the left and right than the HD650.  Again, the imaging on the HD650 is pretty good, and you could use it for gaming.  It just could use more room to work with, and I personally need more soundstage room in a full-size open-headphone like this in order to live with it.
 
 
What I like about the HD650 is it has a nice balanced signature with lovely mids and good detail.  The intimacy makes the mids very easy to hear.  If you love mids and don't mind intimacy, the HD650 can be great.  Unfortunately that intimacy is a bit of a deal breaker for me.  I wouldn't reach for these when I can get the same performance from the K712 but with a more spacious and open sound.  I prefer several things on the K712: It has more body, better low bass, a more natural timbre (IMO), larger instruments AND a larger more open soundstage (yes, both at the same time), and is more comfortable. 
 
MA900s give you a similar signature with a more open sound than the HD650 but with a bit less refinement, less detail, and a bit less natural timbre.  I've read how some people prefer the HD650 to the HD800, but I know that wouldn't be me.  The HD800 has a delicious soundstage, while the HD650 soundstage leaves a slightly sour aftertaste in my mouth.
 

 
Chicolom, I would agree with your Annie and HD650 comparison when both were fed through my E09K/E17. But you should really try the HD650s balanced when you get the chance. Makes it a different beast IMO. Soundstage change is NOT subtle... and ultimately makes for a much more resolving and lifelike listening... particularly for larger orchestral pieces... gives an excellent sense of being in the concert hall. Now I easily reach for the HD650 over the Annies for a more natural and life-like listening for most songs. The Annies still provide better intimate detailing (particularly good with acoustic guitar IMO) but only for select songs now or when I want more "forward" listening. Given... if I balance my Annies later this might change... but sadly, the Annies do not come ready for balance and need some significant modding before I can consider it... so for now they are stuck on SE.

 

[chicolom]

  Chicolom, I would agree with your Annie and HD650 comparison when both were fed through my E09K/E17. But you should really try the HD650s balanced when you get the chance. Makes it a different beast IMO. Soundstage change is NOT subtle... and ultimately makes for a much more resolving and lifelike listening... particularly for larger orchestral pieces... gives an excellent sense of being in the concert hall.

 
I've read the HD650s scale up unusually well.  I'm not going balanced anytime soon, but I'll keep it in mind. 

 

[JmanOfIsrael]

I've been listening to the Annies for a few days now and absolutely love them! They retain everything I love about the Q701s with added base response and comfort. I am officially selling my Bottlehead Crack and HD650s!

 

[Katun]

  I've been listening to the Annies for a few days now and absolutely love them! They retain everything I love about the Q701s with added base response and comfort. I am officially selling my Bottlehead Crack and HD650s!

 
Wow! Liking them more than the HD650 on Crack? What do you use them on?
 
Also, thanks for the impressions on the K712 vs HD650, Chico.

 

[JmanOfIsrael]

   
Wow! Liking them more than the HD650 on Crack? What do you use them on?
 
Also, thanks for the impressions on the K712 vs HD650, Chico.

 
That is the weird thing. I am listening to them on a portable GoVibe Vulcan+ through an ODAC. Not a bad amp by any means but hardly up to standards with the Crack using top of the line tubes. I'd have to say that the biggest difference is the open feeling the Annies provide that the HD650s couldn't while retaining the same amount of sub-bass and other musical characteristics. Instruments feel "full" on each but I don't like how close they felt on the HD650. I am a soundstage guy so that might explain it...