[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't this variation in ear shape also makes a difference with free-field listening, doesn't it? Isn't the ear shape important in free field listening as well? Don't we have the same issues with free listening where one listener likes a particular sound while another listener doesn't? One thinks it's neutral, while another thinks it's coloured?

Our ears are how they are. A relatively frequency-neutral sound such as the noise of a waterfall will be perceived as uncolored by every person, independent of the ear shape, because the individual ear shape is part of the human hearing system consisting of outer ear (pinna), inner ear (nerve cells) and audio department of the brain's nerve center. The latter has learned to interprete neutral noise as neutral since birth, so the system as a whole provides reliable and repeatable impressions.

Headphones on the other hand affect the outer ear in a different way than free-field listening. The interaction between headphone earpiece/driver and outer ear is unpredictable and by nature «unnatural»; it also eliminates a great deal of spatial information which would help to interprete possible colorations as hints for pinpointing the sound source – an important function of the pinna. And note that the signal alienations are individual, depending on the ear shape.
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[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Our ears are how they are. A relatively frequency-neutral sound such as the noise of a waterfall will be perceived as uncolored by every person, independent of the ear shape, because the individual ear shape is part of the human hearing system consisting of outer ear (pinna), inner ear (nerve cells) and audio department of the brain's nerve center. The latter has learned to interprete neutral noise as neutral since birth, so the system as a whole provides reliable and repeatable impressions. Headphones on the other hand affect the outer ear in a different way than free-field listening. [size=x-small]The interaction between headphone earpiece/driver and outer ear is unpredictable[/size] and by nature «unnatural»; it also eliminates a great deal of spatial information which would help to interprete possible colorations as hints for pinpointing the sound source – an important function of the pinna. And note that the signal alienations are individual, depending on the ear shape. .

Thanks for the explanation. I hope you don't mind my going further, but I do wish to be clear on this and how much my thinking will take me before I have to rethink/debunk stuff.

Your first paragraph is great. I'm with you there. Always was.

However, with regard to the second paragraph, when we each, with our tuned hearing apparatus put on headphones, we'll all be subjected to the same "unnatural" sound. Our ear shapes and other hearing components have been adapted to wide field sound. Are you saying that such adaptation is negated? On what basis are we making this claim? IOW's, on what basis are we claiming that the unnaturalness of the sound will be more in some than with others? It's OK though. That's more a question for me and my own reading. It's my responsibility to find that one out on my own, if I can. Ultrasone seems to have put all their eggs into one basket if this is so unpredictable.... or have they?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...when we each, with our tuned hearing apparatus put on headphones, we'll all be subjected to the same "unnatural" sound. Our ear shapes and other hearing components have been adapted to wide field sound. Are you saying that such adaptation is negated? On what basis are we making this claim? IOW's, on what basis are we claiming that the unnaturalness of the sound will be more in some than with others?

As mentioned, the pinna works as a direction detector: the natural colorations (and phase distortions) it adds to the sound (by means of reflection) serve as cues for pinpointing the sound sources. This function is almost completely cancelled out with headphones. One reason is that the sound waves reach the ear from about 90° instead of 0° and the like. The other reason is that the proximity of the earpiece to the ear causes multiple, uncalculateable reflections between them, standing waves, leading to unpredictable and individual colorations without any useful spatial information. These individual colorations may make a specific headphone acceptable to one person and inacceptable to another. But the human hearing is indeed capable of adapting itself to an unfamiliar sonic characteristic after a certain time, the more so with headphones which represent an unnatural sonic experience, hence require such an adaptation anyway. Nevertheless there are limits, and there are different degrees of willingness to do so.

From a different perspective... let's take an in-ear monitor for better illustration: Since the natural coloration from the outer ear during free-field listening is «subtracted» during earphone listening, the remaining «pure/direct» sound will cause individual perceptions when it comes to judge its neutrality/coloration. Add this aspect to the above reasoning.


Quote:

Ultrasone seems to have put all their eggs into one basket if this is so unpredictable.... or have they?

Cetainly not. What they may have achieved (can't judge it, since I never heard an Ultrasone) is a passable reconstruction of a frontal sound field – if we want to believe their advertising. Certainly not a universal cancellation of headphone-ear interaction related colorations.
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[davidhunternyc]

0 degrees or 180 degrees? : )

I just realized I don't have a degrees symbol on my keyboard. Damn Apple.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I've always thought that you really don't need to try to synthesize frontal sound as sound is generally mixed for two speakers 30 deg off axis.

I think Jazz has it basically correct though: headphones interact differently with each ear (although there is some normal distribution within which most interactions lie), the nature of the sound coming in from the free-field doesn't change with different listeners.

It seems to me that Sennheiser has managed to do a pretty good job of turning the earcup into a pretty transparent affair, with the mesh and all, and sound should be able to bounce off the ear and radiate away. In other words, because the cup is so acoustically transperent, it is very lossy and therefore doesn't have enough Q (quality of resonance) to effect the sound much.

Disclaimer: Pure guess work ... could be baloney.

 

[IPodPJ]

Also, the transducers in the HD800 are angled at 30 degrees which approximates a typical speaker placement. The only thing you won't have too much of is crossfeed between channels.

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif headphones interact differently with each ear.

The differences are around 3 to 4db, the Pinna is our main CPU that will adjust the differences, but you'll need so send the command to the CPU/Pinna and the only way to send it is by our awareness/knowledge/and experience.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif From a different perspective... let's take an in-ear monitor for better illustration: Since the natural coloration from the outer ear during free-field listening is «subtracted» during earphone listening, the remaining «pure/direct» sound will cause individual perceptions when it comes to judge its neutrality/coloration. Add this aspect to the above reasoning. [/COLOR]

Do opinions on IEM's vary less than they do with full sized headphones? I know that the JH13 has almost unanimous praise around here, but are opinions also pretty agreed upon among other IEM's?

From my own point of view that is not based on science or fact, I don't really agree with the idea that we all hear headphones differently. I think that people just prefer different colorations, that it is a mental difference rather than a physical one. But, the community's reaction to IEM's seems like it would prove this yay or nay because like you said, there are none with IEM's, the sound just goes right into the ears. If opinions are just as varied with them as with full sized phones, than your reflection theory, however convincing, wouldn't account for much it seems...

 

[rhythmdevils]

with regard to HD800 controversy, it reminds me of the K701 controversy. I notice that there is a lot of blame that goes around when someone dislikes these two- the listener (the neutral excuse), the recording, etc. This happens to some extent with all phones, cause we all want others to understand our appreciation. But with these two, it seems more intense, and often sounds like the fans are trying to undermine the opinions of those who don't like them as much, which of course creates arguments.

I enjoy the arguments and the debates though, as it gets me thinking about why I agree/disagree.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidhunternyc /img/forum/go_quote.gif 0 degrees or 180 degrees? : ) I just realized I don't have a degrees symbol on my keyboard. Damn Apple.

Do you mean 180º? That's with an Apple.

Just hit <Alt><0>.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif As mentioned, the pinna works as a direction detector: the natural colorations (and phase distortions) it adds to the sound (by means of reflection) serve as cues for pinpointing the sound sources. This function is almost completely cancelled out with headphones. One reason is that the sound waves reach the ear from about 90° instead of 0° and the like. The other reason is that the proximity of the earpiece to the ear causes multiple, uncalculateable reflections between them, standing waves, leading to unpredictable and individual colorations without any useful spatial information. These individual colorations may make a specific headphone acceptable to one person and inacceptable to another. But the human hearing is indeed capable of adapting itself to an unfamiliar sonic characteristic after a certain time, the more so with headphones which represent an unnatural sonic experience, hence require such an adaptation anyway. Nevertheless there are limits, and there are different degrees of willingness to do so. From a different perspective... let's take an in-ear monitor for better illustration: Since the natural coloration from the outer ear during free-field listening is «subtracted» during earphone listening, the remaining «pure/direct» sound will cause individual perceptions when it comes to judge its neutrality/coloration. Add this aspect to the above reasoning. .

I appreciate the explanation. Thanks a lot. However, I'm still a tad skeptic on this. Not yet convinced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do opinions on IEM's vary less than they do with full sized headphones? I know that the JH13 has almost unanimous praise around here, but are opinions also pretty agreed upon among other IEM's?

This is a very interesting question!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my own point of view that is not based on science or fact, I don't really agree with the idea that we all hear headphones differently. I think that people just prefer different colorations, that it is a mental difference rather than a physical one. But, the community's reaction to IEM's seems like it would prove this yay or nay because like you said, there are none with IEM's, the sound just goes right into the ears. If opinions are just as varied with them as with full sized phones, than your reflection theory, however convincing, wouldn't account for much it seems...

This is how I've been feeling, but JaZZ successfully took a big chink out of my armor.

 

[Geek]

The HD800 reveals the true quality of a lot of the gear out there, and on top of this even really REALLY good gear that's not basically tuned for the Sennheisers makes the headphones a bit colored. They sounded bad for me until every component reached a certain standard. A very unforgiving headphone. The bass and 6-8khz range are the two most sensitive spots on these cans - if you hear a bass-light headphone with sibilance, change your gear and recording, or just get a different high-end can that matches your gear. Lots of pros on these forums have experienced this problem, and it's not that their ears are bad.

Also, they're killer if you like listening to music at medium to high volumes. They're not my favorite for ultra low volume listening.

 

[pp312]

"They sounded bad for me until every component reached a certain standard."

Is it really that every component reached a certain standard, or that the new gear better complemented the phones? I'm not at all convinced there's so much difference between amps, say. All would have a flat frequency response as a given, so how does this impact on the "sensitive" 6-8khz range of the 800? And even if you change your gear and that works somehow (though how you choose without prior auditioning I'm not sure), how do you change your recording? What if, as often, the recording you have is the only one of its kind but doesn't sound right? Don't we rather need to find a phone and associated equipment that provides us greatest enjoyment from the music we already have, especially our Desert Island favourites? I'm not at all sure about phones that are so fussy and hard to match that we spend the rest of our lives (and our entire bank balance) trying to get things just right and failing miserably.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif "They sounded bad for me until every component reached a certain standard." Is it really that every component reached a certain standard, or that the new gear better complemented the phones? I'm not at all convinced there's so much difference between amps, say. All would have a flat frequency response as a given, so how does this impact on the "sensitive" 6-8khz range of the 800? And even if you change your gear and that works somehow (though how you choose without prior auditioning I'm not sure), how do you change your recording? What if, as often, the recording you have is the only one of its kind but doesn't sound right? Don't we rather need to find a phone and associated equipment that provides us greatest enjoyment from the music we already have, especially our Desert Island favourites? I'm not at all sure about phones that are so fussy and hard to match that we spend the rest of our lives (and our entire bank balance) trying to get things just right and failing miserably.

Scary isn't it? But I have a sneaky feeling that for us mortals with mortal ears, it will not be like that.

It should sound great straight from my little Ultra Desktop Amp with DPS.

 

[aimlink]

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