What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
Jan 7, 2018 at 9:21 PM Post #6,227 of 14,566
For what it is worth. I think for many having some sort of stand alone device is needed. Even if the ins and outs are limited. I don't think it is a stretch to say that many people who would like to try this device have already invested significantly into a DAC. However if you feel that the only way you can offer the product is as part of an integrated DAC, would your larger DACs, yggy and gumby be able to accommodate this added functionality? If so would an upgrade program be possible? It looks like this would be a lot more involved than your typical upgrades as chassis work would be required to add a control for the gadget functionality.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 9:58 PM Post #6,228 of 14,566
I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around how the Gadget will make music sound better. Earlier I had assumed that maybe there is some physiological “sweet spot” in the human hearing mechanism which the device was adjusting for - which seemed plausible - but when I read the paper by Grover Neville, I’m really questioning the logic of it.

For example, the statement “different tuning frequencies affect divisions of the chromatic octave in significant ways” doesn’t make sense. Being a musician, I know that if I change the pitch of guitar, it does not affect the relationship of the notes on the string; the ratio of the frequencies from the open string to a given fret is always the same. Or if I change the pitch of a synthesizer, the relationship of the notes on the keyboard stay the same. It's simple math; for example, if I say the note G is 1.5 times the frequency the C, it's going to be a perfect fifth no matter what the frequency of C is.

Ultimately, if the ratio of two notes remains the same, the pitch of the notes shouldn’t affect any “inharmonicity” between the two notes. The only time this shouldn’t be true is if there is some physical constant at play (for example, a physical instrument might have particular resonances that effect the sound differently at different pitches - but it would be impossible that the sweet spot for every physical instrument is C=265).

Just the fact that this “ideal” pitch is 256 makes it highly questionable. Considering our unit of measure for time is arbitrary, what’s the chances that this “ideal” pitch would align with this convenient number, 256, a power of 2? For this all to make sense, there would need to be some physical constant that this “ideal” number aligned with.

I’m not raising these points to be argumentative, but rather to highlight why I’m not getting it - and hoping someone can explain it. I must believe there’s something I’m missing because I have a lot of respect for the Mike’s intelligence, knowledge, and experience in the field.

The Gadget is at an interesting crossroads. It runs and sounds performs exactly as expected. A colleague, Grover Neville has taken a bit of a time out from his pro audio work to write a paper which addresses the technical issues and measures significant dissonant additives at A=440 which are NOT present at C=256. Although not addressed in this paper, A=432 is far closer to C=256 with less dissonances but still a some cents sharp. C=256 is the point where the dissonances disappear. The link is here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tr2qBrcaSPaTEuUz_imbWLJ-wkECMBEf/view?usp=sharing
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 10:33 PM Post #6,229 of 14,566
And rereading the paper again, I'm still baffled. For example:

The author states: “In the mid-late 1800’s it had been noted by a number of European mathematicians, that at a base tuning frequency of C4 = 256hz all octaves of C become just – that is, they have no inharmonicity and are perfectly in tune.” But by definition, an octave is two times the frequency of the fundamental note - so it doesn’t matter the frequency of C4; all octaves of C will still be “just” if they are indeed octaves.

And the author proceeds to show some spectragraphs to demonstrate the "inharmonicity" of different pitches - but what is the device or instrument creating this sounds? If this were a synthesizer generating simple sine waves and tuned to equal temperament, the spectragraphs of the two reference frequencies should be the same, just shifted up or down, unless there were some characteristic of the device that introduces distortion or other artifacts at differing pitches.

Maybe it's got something to do with with DACs generating less distortion on frequencies that are whole numbers? I dunno, just reaching for some explanation.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 11:20 PM Post #6,230 of 14,566
I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around how the Gadget will make music sound better. Earlier I had assumed that maybe there is some physiological “sweet spot” in the human hearing mechanism which the device was adjusting for - which seemed plausible - but when I read the paper by Grover Neville, I’m really questioning the logic of it.

For example, the statement “different tuning frequencies affect divisions of the chromatic octave in significant ways” doesn’t make sense. Being a musician, I know that if I change the pitch of guitar, it does not affect the relationship of the notes on the string; the ratio of the frequencies from the open string to a given fret is always the same. Or if I change the pitch of a synthesizer, the relationship of the notes on the keyboard stay the same. It's simple math; for example, if I say the note G is 1.5 times the frequency the C, it's going to be a perfect fifth no matter what the frequency of C is.

Ultimately, if the ratio of two notes remains the same, the pitch of the notes shouldn’t affect any “inharmonicity” between the two notes. The only time this shouldn’t be true is if there is some physical constant at play (for example, a physical instrument might have particular resonances that effect the sound differently at different pitches - but it would be impossible that the sweet spot for every physical instrument is C=265).

Just the fact that this “ideal” pitch is 256 makes it highly questionable. Considering our unit of measure for time is arbitrary, what’s the chances that this “ideal” pitch would align with this convenient number, 256, a power of 2? For this all to make sense, there would need to be some physical constant that this “ideal” number aligned with.

I’m not raising these points to be argumentative, but rather to highlight why I’m not getting it - and hoping someone can explain it. I must believe there’s something I’m missing because I have a lot of respect for the Mike’s intelligence, knowledge, and experience in the field.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 11:37 PM Post #6,232 of 14,566
And rereading the paper again, I'm still baffled. ...

I'm with you, I don't see how a particular note frequency being an integer (let alone one that's 2^n ) has to do with anything. No need to say more as you have already said it.
If there is someting "special" Grover doesn't cast any light on it.

and I don't see
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch

as being relevant to bafflement.
 
Jan 7, 2018 at 11:49 PM Post #6,233 of 14,566
Wow, another new year...... 2018, my 70th. I have not checked in here for a while, being preoccupied with Christmas, family, and calendar year end paperwork. I have also been gearing up for another play and the auditions were yesterday "The Cemetery Club". I had enough talent show up to cast three shows. I have already picked who I want and will notify them tomorrow. Most directors do not notify those who didn't make it but I always do, as difficult as it is, but I digress. This does not mean, that R&D has stopped. Recently we have been implementing a software based USB UAC2 (up to 192KHz) of our own into a generic microprocessor so we will be free of the constraints of any external chip maker. We do this to broaden the candidates of DACs we can use in the less expensive units. So the eventual application here is primarily for our lower priced products which has been on my mind as of late.

The Gadget is at an interesting crossroads. It runs and sounds performs exactly as expected. A colleague, Grover Neville has taken a bit of a time out from his pro audio work to write a paper which addresses the technical issues and measures significant dissonant additives at A=440 which are NOT present at C=256. Although not addressed in this paper, A=432 is far closer to C=256 with less dissonances but still a some cents sharp. C=256 is the point where the dissonances disappear. The link is here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tr2qBrcaSPaTEuUz_imbWLJ-wkECMBEf/view?usp=sharing

The crossroads is an interesting one. How do I package the gadget? That is not in a sense of what color or size, but how do I make present it? Standalone? Integrated into something else? Can or will it survive as a standalone? Moreover, is it optimal to even sell it as a standalone? I think not. Here is why.

Digital audio, unlike analog audio which only needs a cable, has, in practice a protocol to function as an interconnect between components. Before the digital audio leaves the source, the Bit-Word-Data is flaked and reformed into one of those protocols. This could be S/PDIFG, USB, Rednet, whatever. Once the digital audio arrives at the DAC, it then is broken up into its Bit-Word-Data components (BWD). The Gadget does what it does in a digital signal processor. If the Gadget is a standalone, it requires two of the above protocols to get the audio on and back off again. Now if I were to make a box converting one of the protocols to another and inserted several generations of them into the digital audio chain two things happen. The first is that the final protocol in the circuit chain is the major determinant of the sound. The second is that the system costs more and more with each protocol added. So the extra protocol circuitry is a waste of space and money. Since the Gadget will not fit in an Eitr, we would need a bigger Eitr with a better power supply hmmmmmm. More I/O (AES/EBU) So it seems that the best, most cost effective, place to install a gadget would be in a DAC or in a bigger, better Eitr. Or upgradable DAC. Cheaper, better. Stay tuned.
I like the idea of a bigger Eitr with more outputs, including all the ones Yggdrasil supports as input, minus USB (or at least the ones you think sound best, especially when going longer distances).

And the Gadget's functionality could be considered improving digital audio, which is what Eitr does, too (albeit only for USB). It also makes the Gadget useful for people not planning on using a Schiit DAC, and for people interested in upgrading their Schiit DAC (to a better model), without having to re-buy as much functionality.

And it makes me less hesitant to buy an Yggdrasil this month. :wink:
 
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Jan 7, 2018 at 11:52 PM Post #6,234 of 14,566
On a different topic, loving a new release of Mahler's 4th: Düsseldorfer Symphoniker, Hanna-Elisabeth Müller (soprano), Adam Fischer (conductor), 48/24 digital download from Presto Classical.
 
Jan 8, 2018 at 12:43 AM Post #6,235 of 14,566
Having a USB out of the new, bigger Gadgetissimo would help me with my ongoing N90Q curiosity, but more to the point, would allow people, in theory, to recapture the retuned audio. For competitive reasons, this may or may not be part of what you're hoping to do.

Otherwise, I remain intensely confused by the ongoing talk of putting a Gadgetissimo inside an existing DAC. Steve Jobs talked about the glory of the bitmap display and pointing device being the possible addition of added features later. Short of drilling new holes for bypass switches, the cake is baked in terms of basic interface design for Schiit products.

I also don't see a way, a reason, to have Gadgety DACs and sad face non gadgety DACs. Two boards is bad enough for multibit and non-multibit designs. But two chassis designs? Per DAC? Talk about metal hell. Run, don't walk, away from that abyss.

Stick to the Gadgetissimo. USB, Coax, and AES in. Coax and AES out. Phuck BNC and Toslink.

On a completely different note, check out this portable espresso machine.
 
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Jan 8, 2018 at 1:30 AM Post #6,236 of 14,566
Bonus points if the Gadgetissimo also offers the digital audio it spits out - in the form of a USB audio source (to a connected PC, I don't mean it being able to act as a USB host for other USB sound cards). Especially if it has other digital inputs, as that appears to be rare, doubly so at up to 24/192, and bitperfect.
My Sound Blaster E5 has TOSlink in, but no bitperfect capture, since the input is its mixer's output. 100% volume is actually more like 150% (it also has an analog line in that can be accessed the same way, so I guess they wanted users to be able to amplify the input, if needed).
 
Jan 8, 2018 at 5:25 PM Post #6,239 of 14,566
Personally I think The Gadget is quite interesting. Would it be possible to to do non-destructive Loki style equalization in the digital domain? That would combine two products into one and you could call it Bragi. It would be even more enticing with Eitr added in.

I originally liked the idea of combining Loki and Gadget but it seems since one was in the analog path and the other in digital people were pretty set against it. To me they're both unique products that manipulate the audio, so seems like a natural fit.
 
Jan 8, 2018 at 6:06 PM Post #6,240 of 14,566
I'm with you, I don't see how a particular note frequency being an integer (let alone one that's 2^n ) has to do with anything. No need to say more as you have already said it.
If there is someting "special" Grover doesn't cast any light on it.

and I don't see
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch

as being relevant to bafflement.


Hey folks. Just some clarification - what I'm specifically getting at here is that Frequency is logarithmic while chromatic divisions of the octave are linear. The systems do not inherently line up. Add on to this the problem of tuning, which can either refer to frequency or tuning within a relative temperament system and it gets rather confusing. I hope this will clear up some of the confusion:

1) While seconds may be a subjective measure, Hertz are not. As a unit of measure it is specifically designed to give us numbers that we can work with that represent a natural phenomena. We often pick even numbers for their simplicity. With two tones such as 440hz and 880hz there should be no inharmonicity - they should be completely just/in-tune from a frequency perspective. Same with 379.126hz and 758.252hz and so on. At first glance, this shouldn't make any difference in how we tune. Just pick a pitch and tune.
However, because (primarily western) music works on an equal-tempered chromatic scale, changing our tuning frequency shifts or linear system in relation to our logarithmic system. This leads us to some complicated interactions which we don't currently have a good unit to describe - frequency obviously is logarithmic, and cents, the smallest unit of tuning in western systems, is just a subdivision of our linear, Equal-temperament system. I'll make a note here as well that while it doesn't matter what notes the octaves are tuned at for the sake of the octaves, it does have an effect on how dissonance is spread between those different octaves. Another reason we divide notes in 'perfect' 'major' 'minor' and other designations.

2) Because ET is spread across roughly the range of a piano for any given western ensemble, changing our tuning frequency effects primarily two things: the tuning of the keys, scales and intervals we are most commonly playing in, and the spread of dissonance across the octaves we are using. What I mean by the latter is that ET is an attempt to 'manage' dissonance if you will. It spreads the difference between the logarithmic and linear systems across the entirety of our used octaves. The result is that every note is a little out of tune, instead of having several notes perfectly in tune with others wildly out of tune. (wolf tones) The point is, that by choosing our tuning frequency carefully, different keys, scales and chords will have either more similar or more different characters (a la baroque tunings such as well temperament, in which Db is rarely used) It also means that specific frequencies are less likely to aggravate our problem of managing dissonance. With A4 = 440hz as our tuning frequency, we assume a certain amount of dissonance we'll call X. Whenever we shift our tuning frequency, because the difference between logarithmic and linear systems only needs to reconcile inside a certain range (in our case from about 60hz-20khz + for most western orchestral instruments) The practical value of X can actually be increased or decreased slightly because we are changing our operating parameters. Because C4 is a lower frequency than A4, we've moved 'down' the logarithmic scale, the frequency has a closer to linear relationship, or rather, one that breaks into twelve chromatic notes a little more cleanly. Why wouldn't we just tune to the lowest note possible then? Well, if you remember that we're spreading our dissonance from all octaves between all octaves, we'll want to pick a frequency that's close to the middle of whatever instrument we're playing so that we're not accounting for dissonance at far higher or lower frequencies than necessary, which would cause our value of X to be far higher than necessary for whatever our audible musical range needs to be.

3) So why C256? As I mentioned above, its close to the center, is lower than A4 so helps shift our parameters a bit, and this is the big one which I agonized over whether to include in the paper or not: because we play in C diatonic more often. This is of course a huge value judgement, and keen readers will be asking if the Keys of B for example still display dissonance (as does the key of Ab in A440) and the answer is yes. The 7th and tritone are the most dissonant notes in the 12-note chromatic scale. C256 does not change this, but rather puts it into starker contrast because the key of C and other diatonic major keys are significantly more in tune. The result is that each key or scale more individual 'character' or tuning qualities in relation to each other (somewhat similar though to a lesser degree than changing temperament systems) I struggled with whether or not to put this in the paper (which I consider a work in progress) because it represents a very sticky musicological discussion to say the least. My subjective impressions are that this changes my chordal and textural perception of the music. While I can pinpoint the exact reasons why, if you want my full thoughts on the matter send me a PM.

4) Inharmonicity in this case is the word I'm using to describe frequency-based dissonance. When two frequencies are not perfect intervals (doubled, halved, etc.) they create a 'beating' against each other, which is the result of conflicting periods. As I note in the paper, managing this beating or inharmonicity is the goal of our current tuning and temperament systems, but actually reconciling the two remains an unsolved problem. You could do it by only dividing an octave into perfect intervals, although you'd have limited notes available to you at audible frequencies. I have an idea for how one might approximate this in a twelve-tone system, but it's incredibly tedious and likely irrelevant to the general audiophile population.

5) I'm using iZotope's mastering spectrogram plug-in. For synthesis I'm using Absynth by Native Instruments, pure sine tones. The genesis of this paper was my observation many years ago that frequency beating can be viewed as spectral information. The beating effect is quite audible, and has been a part of binaural and monaural beats psychoacoustic phenomena for a while.

I hope this makes more sense? This is a rather complex topic that we don't have great tools to describe because it lies at the crossroads of a value-laden linear system (western classical music) and the logarithmic system of physical acoustics. I am not making any claims as to whether C=256hz are superior, inferior, etc. This is my understanding of the issue. I provide a few subjective impressions only because I realize this is in the context of a proposed audio device for purchase, and wish to provide some nonbiased sonic notes from my own recreation of said device.

Happy listening!
 

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