[Enthusia]

The hd600's should improve a lot with proper amplification, I definitely experienced overall better sound quality and a much wider soundstage. It could be you just don't like the balanced sound of the hd600's. If the first Ear 90 didn't sound that good, why buy another one?
 
 
 
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Just found this thread, and must say I too was a bit unsatisfied when I tried a HD600 with an amp yesterday. The amp was a Harmony Design EAR 90, rca model, and I used both a 10 000 dollar CD-player and my low-budget MP3-player as a source. Now, I've listened to very few amps, but it didn't scale up as much as I thought - actually, I found the changes barely audible from both sources. I would think the EAR 90 is strong enough as it puts out 1W at 32 ohm, and it has been recommended for this and the HD650. Is it in fact not enough, or does the HD600 just not improve that much compared to other cans?

 

I'm in the process of buying an amp, and I've been looking at a second hand EAR 90. This test has made me a bit reluctant, but I'm considering buying it anyway to try it with some other cans over a longer period of time, since I could probably sell it again with 50-100 dollars loss. Does it sound reasonable or unnecessary?

 

 

[Jema]

Well, I didn't buy one - I tried one out at an audio store, the reason being I could get a very good deal for one. My impressions were made after listening to it and comparing it with unamped during a period of about two hours. I'm still considering it since I could get it relatively cheap, and it could well be worth it for use with other headphones.
 
I'ts not that I don't like the sound signature of the HD600 - I think it sounds quite good. My point is that I just didn't hear much of a difference at all from unamped, either good or bad. So either the improvement I read from others such as yourself is a lot smaller than I imagined, or the EAR 90 is simply not right for it. I'm gonna try to get back to the store later today to try it with other cans, and maybe I'll try the HD600 again with another more powerful amp to see if it makes a difference (I also did a very quick listen with the Burson HA-160, but that didn't make much difference either).

 

[Jema]

I forgot two other factors that of course could contribute - that I either don't have very good or "trained" ears, or that I don't know what to listen for.

 

[Dubwicht]

It appears that you have a decent amp and as long as your source is ok you should consider new headphones.  A new amp will not change the sound signiture of the headphones very much.  I tried the HD600's and didn't like the sound either. I purchased a set of Hifiman HE-6's and much prefer them.  The headphone is a mechanical device that transforms current into sound and this is where the majority of distortion creeps in.    Invest in headphones!

 

[Pitts Pilot]

I'm also new to all this and also recently picked up HD650s.  I have an E7 and I can assure you that it is NOT EVEN CLOSE to what the 650s need to sound good.  The E9 helps a whole bunch and is a reasonably cheap way for the OP to attempt solving this problem.  I think there is still a lot more potential in the HD650s, beyond what the E9 can bring but it's definitely a step in the right direction.
 
I'm thinking of going with the iBasso balanced DAC DB1(2), balanced portable amp (PB2), and (iBasso - $40!) Senn balanced cable.  That's going to run about $700 which is expensive, but cheap for balanced - which is what many people feel the HD6X0s need to get close to their potential.  (One could skip the DAC and bring the cost down to $375.)

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

I'm also new to all this and also recently picked up HD650s.  I have an E7 and I can assure you that it is NOT EVEN CLOSE to what the 650s need to sound good.  The E9 helps a whole bunch and is a reasonably cheap way for the OP to attempt solving this problem.  I think there is still a lot more potential in the HD650s, beyond what the E9 can bring but it's definitely a step in the right direction.
 
I'm thinking of going with the iBasso balanced DAC DB1(2), balanced portable amp (PB2), and (iBasso - $40!) Senn balanced cable.  That's going to run about $700 which is expensive, but cheap for balanced - which is what many people feel the HD6X0s need to get close to their potential.  (One could skip the DAC and bring the cost down to $375.)

You could also skip the PB2 and go for the PB1 - it's more than capable of driving the HD 600.  That's down to $229 + $39.  I just got mine in the mail today (used), and it's absolutely amazing for a portable amp.
 
If I don't end up upgrading to the Hifiman HE-4, I'm probably going to make a new cable for it though - the thinner HD 600 cable, cut down to five feet long and with the Hirose on the end.

By the way, the Hirose connector is absolutely awesome.  Every decent headphone and amp should use it!  The female (amp) end is ugly and sticks out, yes, but it's locking, secure, easy to insert, small, very sturdy, and in an amp could easily serve as balanced or single-ended.
 

 

[Dubwicht]

I wouldn't waste your money on cables unless you like to fiddle with stuff like that.  If you don't believe me do a blind test with the two cables and I am sure that you will not be able to tell the difference.  If you do let the members know how you made out.  I played the cable game for years and it was a waste of money and effort.  I haven't heard the HE-4's but if they sound as good as my HE-5's you will be very happy.  Check out the used market and let someone else absorb the depreciation.  I have owned many headphones and the HE-5's are the best of the lot.  However,  I haven't tried stuff over $1000 and will not go there unless I find a pair very cheap.  
 
The above comment "not even close"  is madness.  I have been involved in audio for over 20 years and can't remember a "not even close" unless I was comparing a really really really crappy amplifier with a decent amp.   Amp performance is all about low distortion and most amps these days have very low distortion.  The goal is to reproduce music accurately without color and without adding distortion along the way and you can by a decent amp for a very good price these days.  

 

[Pitts Pilot]

 
The above comment "not even close"  is madness.

I'm not known for my sanity.  Maybe it's close, but certainly no cigar.  Your right, there's no distortion.  There's also no "life."
 
Have you tried an HD6X0 with a Fii0 E7?  I think the people willing to head into HD6X0 territory that will be satisfied pairing it with the E7 are few and far between.  I could easily be wrong as I AM new to this (and frequently wrong.)

 

[pp312]

Quote:

 
The above comment "not even close"  is madness.  I have been involved in audio for over 20 years and can't remember a "not even close" unless I was comparing a really really really crappy amplifier with a decent amp.   Amp performance is all about low distortion and most amps these days have very low distortion.  The goal is to reproduce music accurately without color and without adding distortion along the way and you can by a decent amp for a very good price these days.  

 I've been involved in audio for over 50 years and couldn't agree more. The difference between amps, and indeed the ability of certain amps to drive, or not be able to drive, certain headphones is wildly exaggerated. Amps are always blowing other amps out of the water in this forum, but I'll guarantee that in most instances were the two amps A/B'd hardly anyone could pick the difference.

 

[lejaz]

Very interesting to hear this from someone with your level of experience. I imagine the same would also apply to DAC's....perhaps even more so, once you get above entry level ones. You may have saved me some money, I was thinking of upgrading the the 0404 DAC, and possibly even the LD mkV, but was having second thoughts...now I'm having them even more so.

 
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 I've been involved in audio for over 50 years and couldn't agree more. The difference between amps, and indeed the ability of certain amps to drive, or not be able to drive, certain headphones is wildly exaggerated. Amps are always blowing other amps out of the water in this forum, but I'll guarantee that in most instances were the two amps A/B'd hardly anyone could pick the difference.

 

 

[Pitts Pilot]

 
I absolutely agree that most people couldn't hear the difference when a/b-ing two amps and I am probably one of them.  (There are a lot of people here who disagree, or else everyone would be running E7s.)  Would you agree that some amps won't get HD6XXs to a satisfactory volume?
 
The reason I posted is that the OP said he is a newbie, purchased HD650 and E7, and wasn't satisfied.  The same four facts were true for me, so I felt my thoughts would be relevant and useful.  I picked up the E9 and am far happier with the HD650s.  This dude could get that same satisfaction at a very reasonable price.
 
If I could only own the E7 and had to choose between my HD650s and my AHT-M50s, I'd keep the M-50s even though they are $250 less.  With the E9, I'd keep the HD650s (and I still don't feel they are at their full potential, but that's mostly a feeling, and I know that diminishing returns follows a sharp curve at this point.)

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

 
The above comment "not even close"  is madness.  I have been involved in audio for over 20 years and can't remember a "not even close" unless I was comparing a really really really crappy amplifier with a decent amp.   Amp performance is all about low distortion and most amps these days have very low distortion.  The goal is to reproduce music accurately without color and without adding distortion along the way and you can by a decent amp for a very good price these days.  

 
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 I've been involved in audio for over 50 years and couldn't agree more. The difference between amps, and indeed the ability of certain amps to drive, or not be able to drive, certain headphones is wildly exaggerated. Amps are always blowing other amps out of the water in this forum, but I'll guarantee that in most instances were the two amps A/B'd hardly anyone could pick the difference.

 
 
Do you guys even know what an E7 is? I'd hardly call it an amp. It's a decent entry level usb dac, but to imply the E7 is adequate for the HD650 as you're both insinuating is a joke tbh.

 
Pitts Pilot was simply stating the benefit of an adequately driven HD650 using a dedicated but still budget amp (E9). Why are you preaching like he's trying to shill big ticket amps? The comparison he's drawing isn't between two adequate amps, but between a usb powered dac with a headphone out and a "proper" amp with its own power supply.
 

 

[Jema]

To follow up my reply on the HD600 and the EAR 90, I went back to the store yesterday to try the amp with some other headphones. I tried the HD650, 595, 598, the AKG k701, and for fun, the porta pro I carry around these days. It was a quite quick test over an hour, so I simply switched between amped and unamped 5-10 times for every can, listening about 10s at a time.
 
This time, I can say there was a very noticable difference. Not so much with the k701, but the rest reacted more in the magnitude that I had imagined the first time. The HD650 was especially good with it - I found the low-end a bit overpowering and muddled unamped, and this improved greatly with the a bit bright EAR 90. I didn't have the time to try the HD600 again, but I think it shows that the HD600, and possibly also k701, simply need more to drive them well.
 
Though it was a short sample of all phones, I think the HD600 was one of the better of them, even if it didn't do well with the amp. I think I'm going to buy it anyway - it was a clear improvement on the cans that were easier to drive, and as I said I could probably sell it without much loss later.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

   
 
Do you guys even know what an E7 is? I'd hardly call it an amp. It's a decent entry level usb dac, but to imply the E7 is adequate for the HD650 as you're both insinuating is a joke tbh.

 
Pitts Pilot was simply stating the benefit of an adequately driven HD650 using a dedicated but still budget amp (E9). Why are you preaching like he's trying to shill big ticket amps? The comparison he's drawing isn't between two adequate amps, but between a usb powered dac with a headphone out and a "proper" amp with its own power supply.
 

 You're a bit off the beam here, olor1n. Dubwicht remarked that the difference between amps is often exaggerated; I agreed. Yes, I have only a vague idea what an E7 is; that's beside the point. In this instance a better amp may be required for full satisfaction, but too often people are advised that the only way to get close to the potential of the 650, and other phones, is to spend big bucks on a dedicated amp. My view is that 90% of the 650s potential can be extracted even by a good quality integrated, and 90% is enough for many (most?) people. Nothing more specific was implied by my post.     

 

[olor1n]

I'm well aware of your stance pp312. And you're right, yours was a direct response to Dubwicht's comment. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you, but you both seemed to be steering towards the same offtopic debate. Dubwicht's response seemed to be built on the assumption the E7 is comparable to the E9 when a fairer comparison may be E7 vs your mp3 player's HP out. The virtues of amplification debate was out of place following this incorrect assumption.