[MLGrado]

First, an apology, as I have been learning on the fly how to best setup my varied software suites and new measurement hardware. I finally 'cracked the code' a little while ago, and wow, I am getting ever closer to what one would expect from the Audio Precision hardware/software. I am quite excited actually.

Here are the latest 'new and improved' numbers... Signal to Noise for each of the 6 filters of the E70Velvet, plus frequency response. Managed to measure up to and over -127db SNR!!!!

EDIT....

I had to try my new measurement setup on the original Topping E70. WOW. SNR monster, more in line again with what Amir measured over at his place with the Audio Precision. These are all XLR outs, BTW.

 

[iFi audio]

my only front page was for my review of the original 'Octadopter' iDSD Micro when iFi released the first edition with some 'limited edition' swag.

Yep, that was a thing many (OK, not that many) years ago. I still have one of those tees somewhere in my closet

 

[MLGrado]

Yep, that was a thing many (OK, not that many) years ago. I still have one of those tees somewhere in my closet

yeah I still have the tee (my fat ass never could fit in it), and I have the 'canister' that actually could make for a nice 'world music' drum. lol

 

[MLGrado]

Final notes for the review of BOTH the Topping E70 and E70V are FINISHED. All measurements are done.

Want some nuggets before the final reviews hit on Feb 10?

BOTH of these require break-in. The E70 is a soft, soft sounding DAC lacking transients until you give it a chance to warm up over several days. Knowing that, BEFORE I did any critical listening of the E70V, for two days it was on a constant 40 hour music que, mixing all manner of PCM resolutions and DSD resolutions. (Good thing something was getting done, as I had a bad recurrace of the stomach flu, or food poisoning, or who knows early this morning)

Finally, the E70V sounds way different from the E70. If I were not so heavily invested in DSD files, I would personally be very very enamoured with the sound of the E70V. Excellent transient response, great detail, but never bright. It was definitely harsh before break-in. Not anymore. Now it has just about perfect tonality, pretty amazing for the price. As far as DSD, I just can't get over the fact they gave no choice to switch to a higher FC filter. 19khz fc is what the lone filter is according to the AK4191 press release, and matches closely to my measurements. On DSD64, it isn't quite as bad as a 44khz PCM decimation filter. The transition band does extend out to about 30khz. The FC indeed doubles to to around 40khz at DSD128, and 80khz at DSD256. In my opinion that is just way, way too low, and it comes through when listening. The E70 ESS is notably better at DSD playback.

But if DSD isn't your thing, or if you happen to have HQPlayer that can convert your DSD files with a much better filter to 705khz, then I heartedly recommend the E70V.

VELVET is an interest term though, because while after break-in this DAC is neither harsh, nor bright, it's a detail monster, in the best of ways.


Again, full review of both; here on post 1 and 2, and over at my place. euphonicreview.com

 

[pesciolino]

Final notes for the review of BOTH the Topping E70 and E70V are FINISHED. All measurements are done.

Want some nuggets before the final reviews hit on Feb 10?

BOTH of these require break-in. The E70 is a soft, soft sounding DAC lacking transients until you give it a chance to warm up over several days. Knowing that, BEFORE I did any critical listening of the E70V, for two days it was on a constant 40 hour music que, mixing all manner of PCM resolutions and DSD resolutions. (Good thing something was getting done, as I had a bad recurrace of the stomach flu, or food poisoning, or who knows early this morning)

Finally, the E70V sounds way different from the E70. If I were not so heavily invested in DSD files, I would personally be very very enamoured with the sound of the E70V. Excellent transient response, great detail, but never bright. It was definitely harsh before break-in. Not anymore. Now it has just about perfect tonality, pretty amazing for the price. As far as DSD, I just can't get over the fact they gave no choice to switch to a higher FC filter. 19khz fc is what the lone filter is according to the AK4191 press release, and matches closely to my measurements. On DSD64, it isn't quite as bad as a 44khz PCM decimation filter. The transition band does extend out to about 30khz. The FC indeed doubles to to around 40khz at DSD128, and 80khz at DSD256. In my opinion that is just way, way too low, and it comes through when listening. The E70 ESS is notably better at DSD playback.

But if DSD isn't your thing, or if you happen to have HQPlayer that can convert your DSD files with a much better filter to 705khz, then I heartedly recommend the E70V.

VELVET is an interest term though, because while after break-in this DAC is neither harsh, nor bright, it's a detail monster, in the best of ways.


Again, full review of both; here on post 1 and 2, and over at my place. euphonicreview.com

@MLGrado is the review coming?!
I have to say, I got the E70, and then got the E70V thinking, surely the AKM will sound better than the ESS (AKM is more natural, ESS is more clinical, etc.), but then I'm (somewhat reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the E70 sounds clearer - and better - as if the E70V puts a muffled blanket over the overall sound (and yes, especially with DSD) - I'll have to do a full on A/B comparison (since currently I have both) but that's my current impression - so... looking forward to your review!

 

[robertospeed]

in fact I also want to know who plays better than the 2 , I have E70 V. and I have time to return it until February 22nd , please let me know , because I listen to a lot of DSD .
But does E70 have 2 DSD filters ? because E70 V. does not have them.

 

[MLGrado]

@MLGrado is the review coming?!
I have to say, I got the E70, and then got the E70V thinking, surely the AKM will sound better than the ESS (AKM is more natural, ESS is more clinical, etc.), but then I'm (somewhat reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the E70 sounds clearer - and better - as if the E70V puts a muffled blanket over the overall sound (and yes, especially with DSD) - I'll have to do a full on A/B comparison (since currently I have both) but that's my current impression - so... looking forward to your review!

today. i am a day behind due to stomach flu. But review for both E70 and E70V will be up by late afternoon.

 

[enz0pt]

today. i am a day behind due to stomach flu. But review for both E70 and E70V will be up by late afternoon.

Speedy recovery

 

[MLGrado]

in fact I also want to know who plays better than the 2 , I have E70 V. and I have time to return it until February 22nd , please let me know , because I listen to a lot of DSD .
But does E70 have 2 DSD filters ? because E70 V. does not have them.

The E70 uses has 4 IIR filters available for DSD. 47khz, 50khz, 60khz, 70khz. 47 is usually (in other dacs) not selectable for DSD, because PCM also flows through the IIR filter according to ESS, and 47khz for whatever reason in supposed to be just for PCM. It is maddening (at least to me) at how coy ESS plays with the DSD vs PCM signal path. Yeah, other chipsets hide their intellectual property and are vague and sometimes tell outright lies in their datasheets, but, no one is more tight lipped that ESS.

What I can say about ESS and DSD, is it sounds excellent. It doesn't seem to decimate at all to a standard PCM rate. The IIR filter rolloff shows what one wants with a DSD filter. A very gentle, slow rolloff with extended frequency response, whose primary purpose in the digital multi-bit intermediate state is to make the ultrasonic noise manageable. (As a matter of fact, and what will be mentioned in my reviews that publish this afternoon, I find the E70 to sound notably better on DSD than the E70V. The gap starts to close if you can send upconverted DSD512 to the E70V, but, it never completely closes)

The info ESS DOES give us on their DSD filter says they use a slow rolloff right up to Nyquist limit, which means their filter maintains excellent impulse response (time domain performance). The 'holy grail' for a DSD filter is one that deals with the all the noise dumped above 20khz, that at the same time preserves as much as possible time domain performance, which is the Ace up DSD's sleeve, in a manner of saying it. Now, it would be naive to think that this particular filter tells the whole story, as there is a LOT of DSP applied by ESS before the final product is heard. But, just focusing in on the 'primary' digital DSD filter, it's exactly what one would want.

 

[robertospeed]

The E70 uses has 4 IIR filters available for DSD. 47khz, 50khz, 60khz, 70khz. 47 is usually (in other dacs) not selectable for DSD, because PCM also flows through the IIR filter according to ESS, and 47khz for whatever reason in supposed to be just for PCM. It is maddening (at least to me) at how coy ESS plays with the DSD vs PCM signal path. Yeah, other chipsets hide their intellectual property and are vague and sometimes tell outright lies in their datasheets, but, no one is more tight lipped that ESS.

What I can say about ESS and DSD, is it sounds excellent. It doesn't seem to decimate at all to a standard PCM rate. The IIR filter rolloff shows what one wants with a DSD filter. A very gentle, slow rolloff with extended frequency response, whose primary purpose in the digital multi-bit intermediate state is to make the ultrasonic noise manageable. (As a matter of fact, and what will be mentioned in my reviews that publish this afternoon, I find the E70 to sound notably better on DSD than the E70V. The gap starts to close if you can send upconverted DSD512 to the E70V, but, it never completely closes)

The info ESS DOES give us on their DSD filter says they use a slow rolloff right up to Nyquist limit, which means their filter maintains excellent impulse response (time domain performance). The 'holy grail' for a DSD filter is one that deals with the all the noise dumped above 20khz, that at the same time preserves as much as possible time domain performance, which is the Ace up DSD's sleeve, in a manner of saying it. Now, it would be naive to think that this particular filter tells the whole story, as there is a LOT of DSP applied by ESS before the final product is heard. But, just focusing in on the 'primary' digital DSD filter, it's exactly what one would want.

But what should I do then? do I have to return E70 V and take E70 ? But which of the 2 is the best?

 

[MLGrado]

But what should I do then? do I have to return E70 V and take E70 ? But which of the 2 is the best?

I like the E70V. I think it is notably better overall.

DSD? Sorry for a lot of nerd talk. It sounds fine. It just sounds at its BEST if you can upconvert to DSD 512 in something like JRiver or Roon.

I have over 2 terrabytes of DSD files on my home server. And I would still pick the E70V ALL things considered.

 

[pesciolino]

I like the E70V. I think it is notably better overall.

DSD? Sorry for a lot of nerd talk. It sounds fine. It just sounds at its BEST if you can upconvert to DSD 512 in something like JRiver or Roon.

I have over 2 terrabytes of DSD files on my home server. And I would still pick the E70V ALL things considered.

Hmm, so *without* upconverting to DSD 512 - let's say, remaining at DSD 64 or 128 - do you *still* like the E70V better than the E70 for DSD files?
I have to wonder if my ears are playing tricks, because to me, at DSD 2.8 and 5.6, the E70 sounds, well, better

 

[MLGrado]

Hmm, so *without* upconverting to DSD 512 - let's say, remaining at DSD 64 or 128 - do you *still* like the E70V better than the E70 for DSD files?
I have to wonder if my ears are playing tricks, because to me, at DSD 2.8 and 5.6, the E70 sounds, well, better

the actual difference is small. As a reviewer to say there is a notable difference is a relative thing.

In other words, if you had one of these and never heard the other, there would be nothing you hear via DSD playback that would make you say anything but, 'this sounds great'.

I am convinced the E70V is the better sounding DAC overall. And that is the one I would buy.

I find that the E70 ESS version also benefits from upconversion to DSD512. Or upconvert to DSD256. DACs have a problem sometimes with 512fs and faster. It requires the onboard logic to run superfast and lowers fidelity in some cases.

And as a general manner, I think DSD64 really has too much ultrasonic noise that starts rising at too low a frequency. Some DACs handle it fine, but I find that most DACs benefit upconverting DSD64.

I wouldn't worry about it. The E70V is an overall better sounding DAC. If you already have one and like it, I think you would be a bit disappointed going with the E70 instead.

Im complaining about the FIR filter being set so low on DSD. Its an academic argument, really. In real world listening, I would recommend the E70V everytime.

 

[MLGrado]

https://www.euphonicreview.com/reviews.html

Sorry for being late folks. I have the FIRST review finished. There may be a few typos left in there. There is so much data I have collected, I am just now half-way done. The E70V so called review 'part 2' will hit tomorrow evening.

 

[Leonarfd]

Edit Wrong thread.

Read the review its detailed and good.