To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...
Dec 17, 2018 at 11:09 PM Post #751 of 2,146
I find there's a dip in micro detail or clarity or what ever you want to call it when using meier crossfeed in foobar. very hard to pick up at level 5 of 100 scaling to what I consider a very modest but obvious dip in detail around level 40-50. As others have stated a lot of great classic jazz recordings have hard interment splits between channels, it really just doesn't work with headphones.

What is it you want crossfeed do for you? Change nothing? Do nothing?
I have been slowly lowering the Meier Crossfeed Plugin in foobar2K and am now down to about 5 coming from 20-22 a year or so ago. I am starting to wonder if I was liking the coloring rather than the intended blending of channels... what artifacts or tell-tale signs should one be looking for that would indicate that crossfeeding is distorting/coloring? Something in the bass perhaps? In fact, if anyone has a recommended music track to use with setting crossfeed levels with some key adjustment leveling tips that might actually quite be helpful. Any guidance or advice would be sincerely well received and appreciated as I am thinking about dropping the entire plugin.
 
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Dec 18, 2018 at 4:12 AM Post #752 of 2,146
you could take some track with only left channel signal then only right channel signal, and fool around to see where you imagine those sounds to be and how wrong they feel. for left and right channel you could for example try to get those sounds in the direction of typical speakers, around 30° on each side. but there is no telling that it will be your preferred sound even if well done.
beyond that, you somehow might need to get lucky with Xfeed. as mentioned in some of the back and forth arguments in this topic, Xfeed tries to give you a simplified compensation, so even if it's the right one for your head, your brain could still get annoyed by something it's expecting to be different(not that this won't happen without Xfeed).

you could also go on a journey like https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/ and try to record the impulses(actually sweeps for practical reasons) with mics at your ear canal and make your very own crossfeed with delays and FR for your own head, even keeping all the room reverb if you like. but once you get there, you might notice that you would really love head tracking and impulses at various more positions, and maybe multichannel and... in a way it's a blessing to be able to consider typical headphone experience as good.
 
Dec 18, 2018 at 10:30 AM Post #754 of 2,146
yes I use one form or another of crossfeed almost anytime I use headphones or IEMs. even my portable amp has crossfeed options. in foobar I have messed around with some impulses I picked http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/sounds.html after trying all the demos and deciding which one worked best at about 30° when the "bzzz bzzzz" is turning around my head. I don't really remember what I did to the impulses, it was a mix of lucky tries and asking for help. in the end, I use that with a convolver. @Joe Bloggs shared something similar 2 or 3 years ago but it was more of a room simulation attempt than a sterile HRTF capture at a given angle like I did. a bunch of people seemed to like his impulses, while absolutely everybody who tried my stuff said it sounds weird and at the wrong place. I guess I really just have a weird head. that's why I can't wait to get the Realiser A16, hopefully they'll deliver before 2030.
 
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Dec 18, 2018 at 8:15 PM Post #755 of 2,146
Auburn Sounds - Panagement (available as a free version):

panagement.jpg


Panagement - Powerful Binaural Management
 
Dec 20, 2018 at 4:34 PM Post #756 of 2,146
I have been slowly lowering the Meier Crossfeed Plugin in foobar2K and am now down to about 5 coming from 20-22 a year or so ago. I am starting to wonder if I was liking the coloring rather than the intended blending of channels... what artifacts or tell-tale signs should one be looking for that would indicate that crossfeeding is distorting/coloring? Something in the bass perhaps? In fact, if anyone has a recommended music track to use with setting crossfeed levels with some key adjustment leveling tips that might actually quite be helpful. Any guidance or advice would be sincerely well received and appreciated as I am thinking about dropping the entire plugin.
Colouring is part of the existence of sound. Physical sounds exist in physical reality and colouring is part of that physical world. It's similar to objects and lighting. Shadows happen. Things happen and without those it doesn't look right, it's just badly rendered cgi. All colouring isn't the same. There's destructive colouring and expected colouring. An amp clipping a signal and causing distortion is destructive colouring. Reflection from the ceiling of the listening room is expected colouring and adds spatial cues that tell the listeners in which kind of acoustics they are listening. Lack of colouring is a problem if colouring is expected. Pure sinusoidals generated in a sound editor listened with headphones to add as little colourization as possible is dull as hell, because the sounds heard lack all possible spatial cues that would indicate how the sounds exist in physical reality. In a way such sounds "don't exist", but are imaginary, in our mind almost outside physical reality. Such sounds are "half-existing." Expected colouring (reflections, ILD, ITD, ISD, reverberation etc.) make the sounds "full-existing." They interact with the acoustic reality and get coloured. So, the rule of thumb goes:

- Avoid destructive colouring unless it makes the sound "better" (in which case the colouring should be in the recording, not in the reproduction chain!)
- Expected colouring is needed, but bad expected colouring (such as bad acoustics) is bad.

Now, finally to the issue at hand: Most recordings are mixed for loudspeakers and loudspeaker listening causes acoustic crossfeed colouring among other colouring related to room acoustics (in studios these are very mild thanks to the studio acoustics, but strong acoustic crossfeed happen anyway). So, those recordings are mixed to sound the best when there's normal acoustic crossfeed (left ear hears right speaker and vice versa) + mild controlled room acoustics colouring. Headphone crossfeed simulates the acoustic crossfeed. Typical headroom crossfeed level (from -12 dB to -6 dB) is rather mild compared to acoustic crossfeed. So, we colour the sound less than speaker would do and doing so reduce excessive ILD (which confuse spatial hearing and cause listening fatique / lack of sonic realism). When strong crossfeed (something like -1 dB) is use, the colourization is similar to acoustic crossfeed except for the room acoustics, but often we don't need to reduce excessive ILD that much. Speakers make the sound very narrow with the acoustic crossfeed, but room acoustics (reflections, reverberation) restores the width. Speakers + room transform all recordings to almost the same width. Even mono recordings get width thanks to the acoustics, althou it's fake width. Very wide (ping pong stereo) recordings become almost the same as mono recordings. Speakers + room is kind a width regulator where the width is expected. With headphones we get whatever the recording is. Mono is mono and ping pong is ping pong. Only a handful of recordings happen the have expected width and work best without any tinkering in the form of crossfeed. Most recordings have excessive spatial information for headphone and tinkering is needed to get to expected value. Pretty much every recording has it's own proper crossfeed level based on how wild ILD it contains and it's pretty easy to learn to set the correct level, but a fixed crossfeeder in the range -8…-5 dB works pretty well with most recordings (some remain under-crossfed and some are somewhat over-crossfed).

Worrying about crossfeed colourization is kind of ridiculous, because in most cases it's milder than that with speakers and nobody worries about that! Also, our spatial hearing EXPECTS to hear certain correlation between ears. So, the lack of crossfeed colourization is the real problem. The reason why people don't complain about speaker acoustic crossfeed is because people can't turn it off (unless they have crossfeed canceling prosessing).

Some people insist crossfeed loses detail, but that's "fake" detail caused by excessive spatiality. It's like sharpening video picture. Turning picture sharpness to max on your tv makes the picture look sharper, but it's fake sharpness: It doesn't make DVD look as good as Blu-ray. No, the DVDs look best when the sharpness level is natural, we have the detail level that the format allows. Properly crossfed sound allows the real detail come out under the fake detail, so not only is no real detail lost, but the detail isn't masked by fake information. People don't realize, that spatial hearing can decode the crossfeed process comparing left and right ear signals and that's why the strong acoustic crossfeed with speakers isn't a real problem either.

Ultimately it comes down this: Do you like listening with or without crossfeed? Which sounds more natural? Which cause less fatique?
 
Dec 20, 2018 at 5:31 PM Post #757 of 2,146
The way sound inhabits space is a very complex thing involving reflections, minute time delays and directionality. DSPs can simulate a lot of this, but not all of it. There's no substitute for a really good listening room. But if you are stuck with cans because of circumstances, DSPs can help. There is no reason to be dogmatic about "purity". The best thing to do is to try it and see if you like it. Listen for a while and fine tune the settings. If it doesn't work, don't use it.
 
Dec 31, 2018 at 8:49 AM Post #758 of 2,146
The way sound inhabits space is a very complex thing involving reflections, minute time delays and directionality. DSPs can simulate a lot of this, but not all of it. There's no substitute for a really good listening room. But if you are stuck with cans because of circumstances, DSPs can help. There is no reason to be dogmatic about "purity". The best thing to do is to try it and see if you like it. Listen for a while and fine tune the settings. If it doesn't work, don't use it.

The harsh reality is only a very small amount of people have the possibility to have "a really good listening room." You have one and that makes you an exception in the World. I have listened to music in "a really good listening room", the listening room of the acoustics laboratory I used to work in years ago. So I know it is good. To have such constructions (room inside a room to allow room mode reducing bass leakage/finetuned acoustics with diffusers and absorpers etc). is "impossible" for most people. People may even have the money, but have even more important things to spend it on. With proper crossfeed I get very good results when listening to well recorded music and I can blast off the music day and night whenever I want without disturbing my neighbours (yes, a lot of people have neighbours behind the wall with an sound insulation of 55 dB or even less and I know my religious old neighbour does not want to hear the bumping bass of The Prodigy at 2 am!).

It's about scales. Concerts are for a large group of people. Home speaker audio is for a small group of people or just for one person. Headphone audio is only for one person, excluding others (they can only hear what the cans leak). The smaller and closer to your ears the transducers get, the more it's "your" audio and the more you can control it. That's what I like about headphones. I call the shots and listen to The Prodigy's new album "No Tourists" 2 am if I want to!
 
Dec 31, 2018 at 1:33 PM Post #759 of 2,146
I bought my house based on the room.It's not so much about the construction of the room. That is just gilding the lilly. The main thing is the space and the layout of the room. Headphones, even with crossfeed, don't come anywhere close. It's a fine compromise if you don't have any other options, but if you do like I did and keep the proper listening room as your goal, eventually you'll have it. The other alternative is to find a friend with a great setup and visit often. I have a bunch of friends who come over for music and movies and dinner often.

If you do get to the situation where you're looking for a house, I'd recommend thinking outside the box. Most people think of rooms in terms of normal uses... kitchens, bedrooms, living rooms. But a space is a blank slate. You can use a room for a different purpose if you want. My house had a strange long hallway with a closet running the whole length that had been added on connecting the front of the house with the rear. It also had a bathroom that could only be accessed from the backyard, I opened up the closet to create a 25 foot run of record storage and knocked a door into the house, turning the bathroom into a laundry room. My kitchen is also my library because the kitchen table is where I like to sit and read. I divided my house into two halves, the part I live in and the part I entertain in. It's like two separate wings. Hard to describe, but I'm sure I use the house in a different way than anyone who ever lived here before. But it suits me perfectly. You can use a dining room as an office or a living room as a bedroom if you want. There are no laws saying how rooms should be used. (I don't know about using the bathroom as a kitchen though!)
 
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Dec 31, 2018 at 10:05 PM Post #760 of 2,146
Headphones, even with crossfeed, don't come anywhere close.

Does it have to come close? Does it have to sound like speakers to be enjoyed? Speakers, headphones, whatever. My enjoyment is much more correlated to the quality of the music. I did listen to some new Tangerine Dream (Sessions III) on speakers while waiting the year to end. Yeah, sounds different from headphones, but not really more or less enjoyable. At least the difference isn't dramatic. We adapt to the sound while listening.

I think houses in general are much larger in the US than in Finland. Finland is a cold place and the houses can't be that large, because keeping them warm in the middle of the winter takes a lot of energy. So it's takes literally a millionare to buy a larger house. My rental flat is 300 square foot and it has one 160 square foot (about 16' x 10') room + small kitchen and toilet. In that 160 square foot I have "everything" even my bed where I sleep at night. The bed is good absorbing bass frequencies so that's a plus.
 
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Jan 1, 2019 at 3:39 PM Post #761 of 2,146
Evict some reindeer and convert a barn into a good listening room!
 
Jan 1, 2019 at 3:50 PM Post #762 of 2,146
Jan 1, 2019 at 4:10 PM Post #763 of 2,146
The reindeers are probably thankful of that!
 
Feb 2, 2019 at 10:12 PM Post #765 of 2,146
My theoretical version of my ideal DSP crossfeed is in a post on the help and introduction forum

crossfeed/binaural
talk about a click bait ^_^. the actual link https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crossfeed-binaural-iser-question.899159/
what you suggest in the second half of your post is how mostly how sounds reach the ears when using stereo speakers. also how most crossfeed solutions work. and you can use what is called "true stereo" as a convolution scheme to have a stereo signal turn into 4 channels where you'll apply the impulses you still need to procure yourself, and then mixes it all back to stereo. ideally in such a case, the impulses you'd want to use would be those from your own measured HRTF at about 30° left and right(left and right ear for each). in practice you could have a mic at your ear and capture the impulses(usually using sine sweep) coming out of actual speakers(one impulse at a time).

about the first part and your 3D software idea, so long as you're handling stereo recording, you don't have anything resembling 3D data that could be manipulated in such fashion. to get to a 3D model of the sound(which is possible), you have to record in a certain way, or you need a HRTF model to use as basis for placing "instruments" in space. so we're back to first having to procure a HRTF(again, ideally it would be your own, which is the limitation of standard crossfeeds that try to offer a sort of universal solution instead).
 

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