There's Something About Ultrasone…

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I totally agree that YMMV when it comes to percieving cans....that's why arguements about whether a particular headphone is simbilant or veiled will just be never ending Live and let live....we all have different ears!! However, your perception of the Senns hiding details is something I wanted to touch on: in a friendly manner of course. It's expected since I'm an outspoken Senn fanboy too I personally don't find the Senns being laid back so much that they hide things. I equate music reproduction just like graphics. Tonality is just like colors: I know you're really into photography Contrastique, so I think you'll appreciate this analogy. For me, a bright headphone does not mean that it's more faithful then a full bodied headphone. It's like finding the best contrast in a photo: some people like full contrast, high key colors. Other like softer, more subtle values. The softer values give you a better sense of shading. However, if the subject has blemishes, with a high key photo, those blemishes will be highlighted more then a soft photo. Does a softer photo hide those blemishes? It completely depends on how soft the gradations are and how bad the blemishes are. I find with my Senns, that they are just as amp and recording dependant as a bright, revealing headphone. I like them best with well recorded, high res formats. If it's poorly mixed rock, I find Grados sound better. But that's the way I roll of course

You are right about that. Thank you for your friendly approach

hihi!
For me in a picture it is all about the details like how much detail you can see in shadow and highlights. I do my shooting in a way that I have as much as detail as possible. Afterwards I choose what I leave out and what stays and if I want to leave anyhting out at all. But i do want it in the original cause then you have a good startingpoint. But you change things in order to get the sphere in a photo in a way you want it to be. Bladibla, I may be loosing the subject here, I don't know.
My bro has the senn hd 600 and a MOTU soundcard. Last fridaynight we sat at my table and compared lots of songs with these two cans.
Some songs indeed sounded better with his cans than with mine. The highs were more rounded of with some songs. With mine they just sounded to harsh and revealing. I did also notice some of the details were less appearant than with my ones. I didn't like that.
I can imagine that some songs sound better with ...can and with another can other songs sound better. It is all about taste yep.
For me I just choose one type of can and just fool myself it is the best for me haha!! Saves some money

Thank you for explaining yourself through photography, makes me put it back in perspective and understandable.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are right about that. Thank you for your friendly approach hihi! I can imagine that some songs sound better with ...can and with another can other songs sound better. It is all about taste yep. For me I just choose one type of can and just fool myself it is the best for me haha!! Saves some money Thank you for explaining yourself through photography, makes me put it back in perspective and understandable.

See....we can be civil: instead of beating each other up for having different headphones, we should appreciate that we have so many different types of headphones to chose from.

I think what gets us down the road of bitter arguement is when we try to say someone's headphone is not faithful to recordings. Since recordings vary, how well any headphone reproduces it will vary as well. For my ears, Senns have soft detail but a full range (ie less contrast but more value range). So I really like them for SACDs and well mixed CDs. Grados are a good compliment because they are sharp and can bring out details in a highly compressed rock track (I just find Senns completely boring on a badly mixed track).

My hobby is music, but my profession is graphics: so I'm always looking at analogies of the two

Just thought about the photography analogy as I was brought back to the days of hanging out in a darkroom, figuring out how much contrast I wanted in a photo. Also missing not doing any photography now, so I'm eagerly awaiting my first DSLR! Since recordings vary so much, I do think it's not bad to have a couple different brands of headphones: you can't photoshop out a sharp recording with a headphone

 

[dw6928]

I run 3 lighting showrooms so I have a clear answer to the NSl question. They are a small retailer whose only chance to
do any quantity of business is to "lowball" the major retailers. They may pay the same invoice as Headroom and others, they just keep less after the sale and hope to do an increased volume sales business. Their profit margin is less but multiply it times increased sales and they can be profitable. Without a lower price, no one would have ever heard of NSL. It is where I bought my 2500s and it was purely due to the lowest price
available; I had never heard of them other than 701 and Ultrasone low pricing.

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif See....we can be civil: instead of beating each other up for having different headphones, we should appreciate that we have so many different types of headphones to chose from. I think what gets us down the road of bitter arguement is when we try to say someone's headphone is not faithful to recordings. Since recordings vary, how well any headphone reproduces it will vary as well. For my ears, Senns have soft detail but a full range (ie less contrast but more value range). So I really like them for SACDs and well mixed CDs. Grados are a good compliment because they are sharp and can bring out details in a highly compressed rock track (I just find Senns completely boring on a badly mixed track).

Yessssss (oew, sorry about the excessive sibilance

) It is all about love haha in the end and music itself!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif My hobby is music, but my profession is graphics: so I'm always looking at analogies of the two Just thought about the photography analogy as I was brought back to the days of hanging out in a darkroom, figuring out how much contrast I wanted in a photo. Also missing not doing any photography now, so I'm eagerly awaiting my first DSLR! Since recordings vary so much, I do think it's not bad to have a couple different brands of headphones: you can't photoshop out a sharp recording with a headphone

Ahhh Sweet! The analogies are quite similar in some ways and that is also what I like about it. What kinda camera will you be buying?
Maybe i am just a detail-freak. Even wine has to have a profound and detailed taste with different kinds of flavour combined in it. No muddy wine for me

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yessssss (oew, sorry about the excessive sibilance ) It is all about love haha in the end and music itself!

Hey, after Senns, the Grado SR325i (one of the brightest Grados) is my next favorite headphone. So I can appreciate dark and light

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kinda camera will you be buying? Maybe i am just a detail-freak. Even wine has to have a profound and detailed taste with different kinds of flavour combined in it. No muddy wine for me

See, I like full bodied wines and beers (merlots and stouts all the way)....might be why I like Senns

I've got the accesories for my DSLR, but am still waiting on it

I'm as anxious as a kid in a candy store waiting for candy!! This is also quite devilish candy, because I decided to spend a bit extra for a Canon 5D. Being used to old 35mm SLRs, its full sized sensor was a big selling point for it! Have I mentioned that I'm anxiously waiting for it????

 

[oqvist]

Is it just my connection or is this site dead slow now?

As for sibilance yes my Proline 750 has quite a lot of it.

I think I have heard that the DT 770 PRO 80 ohms should have quite a bit of sibilance in the top? The 750 does have a lot more on it. And for me it is something that has come with burn in... Maybe it will go away again with more burn in didn´t behave such before lol.

My theory is that it´s the treble that gets overloaded since it has obviously become stronger compared to the lower parts.

I can now see how people can perceive them as bright wasn´t like that just some 30 hours ago or something at all. I now have the issue I have hard time hearing the bass at times maybe I will have to start working with the equalizer again lol. Still overall tons better then the dull sound I had for a while lol.

But then this sibilance it seems to be an issue with voices almost exclusevily and since that is nothing the 750 is super with anyway no big loss

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is also quite devilish candy, because I decided to spend a bit extra for a Canon 5D. Being used to old 35mm SLRs, its full sized sensor was a big selling point for it! Have I mentioned that I'm anxiously waiting for it????

Oeww that is very sweet indeed. Very beautiful camera! Nice sturdy and big! Can imagine you are anxious haha. Still hoping that one day nikon will introduce a fullsize one. For now I just have to deal with what I have. Not that that's bad

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well lets have a return rant.

<snip>

That is all very comforting to know. We hear things differently and enjoy different qualities. I experienced burn-in, you do not very much. Most relevant to this discussion, we have different usage rules for the word sibilant, which is limited to specific very harsh mic distortions in my own definition, but is used more relaxedly to include any treble emphasis which makes the "sss" and "ch" sounds more noticeable by your own, if I'm reading you right.

It didn't help for you to pull out your "monster robot" reviewer (the largest headphone manufacturer in the world) against all those pro testimonials - I don't consider that review to be of a burned-in pair of 750s. It sounds like a review of an unburned-in pair, though, quite accurately. But I'm beating a dead horse there, as you state you do not think burn-in could result in enough of a change for you to alter your experience of them. That may be true. Boomana did not hear adequate change in hers, either. Nor has Elephas, though he really does enjoy his 2500s for many materials <link>.

I repeat five different ways that we simply have different hearing, and that we both can be right about our evaluations, based upon a number of factors. I'm happy I do not have several of those factors that affect your appraisal weighing in for me, because I really enjoy these and feel I lucked out in finding them. That doesn't make anyone less right, only different.

Terry

 

[jpelg]

FWIW to anyone else possibly reading this thread, my well-burned in 750's do not exhibit any sibilance. This, even out of my (typically described as "bright") Benchmark DAC1. And I am quite sensitive-to/irritated-by high-pitched, or etchy sounds.

Do they show differences in recordings? Yes. Both the good & not-so-good.

Is that to be expected? Of any good headphone, of course.

But excessive sibilance? Definitely not.

 

[dw6928]

my 2500 are no more sibilant on a given recording than my
701s

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbritton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most relevant to this discussion, we have different usage rules for the word sibilant, which is limited to specific very harsh mic distortions in my own definition, but is used more relaxedly to include any treble emphasis which makes the "sss" and "ch" sounds more noticeable by your own, if I'm reading you right.

maybe ways to mend some fences here, but isn't that the same thing? Sibilance is a fatiguing harshness in highs. Now I side with those that say it can be either recording or headphone FR dependant. Read headphone reviews, and reviewers say if a headphone is too simbilant for them or not. You can get exagerated highs from a close miked recording: ie the mic doesn't have the normal treble attenuation that a room would have. I know my HD650s are softer in the upper midrange, and my SR325is are more exagerated. My SR325i doesn't seem too fatiguing for me, but I can see how on certain systems and recordings it might have highs that are just too spikey for people. Now I haven't even heard the 2500 to know how its upper midrange is, but since I have heard bright headphones, I could see how maybe it's going to be fatiguing for a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oeww that is very sweet indeed. Very beautiful camera! Nice sturdy and big! Can imagine you are anxious haha. Still hoping that one day nikon will introduce a fullsize one. For now I just have to deal with what I have. Not that that's bad

It's funny that when I was first reading about DSLRs, I thought that they'd all be light weight plastic now. The 5D is replacing my very old Canon AE-1. I just assumed they'd all be like my mom's somewhat new Canon Rebel: light and plastic. But the EF zoom lens that I got almost weighs the same as my metal plated AE-1. I'm sure this lens coupled with the 5D will be a wrist workout for me!!

Since one can take wonderful photos even with an old film SLR, I'm sure your Nikon can take you very far

Also since I'm getting older, I thought having a bright viewfinder would let me keep the 5D longer: when I start losing my vision

I'm sure Nikon is going to compete with Canon and start producing full sensors too: that means prices on full sensor DSLRs should come down as well.....hopefully

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sibilance is in the 3-7khz regoin per this document regarding setting frequency balances to avoid problems when recording ..... frequency chart 120Hz and lower, these frequencies are generally responsible for warmth in a recording. Too much and the recording will sound muddy. 120Hz - 600Hz, these frequencies give depth to a recording, giving vocals and other instruments a strong sense of presence without being clinical. On the other hand, these frequencies are where you're most likely to experience problems with vocal resonance. Too much in this area can be particularly fatiguing. 600Hz - 3kHz, these frequencies also give presence but of a generally harder nature. High output in this region is fairly common in rock music as it gives it a hard edge that suites the genre. 3kHz- 7kHz is the area where vocal sibilance resides. 3kHz-5kHz is a very common peaking area in rock music because human hearing is pretty sensitive here and extra output here makes it sound louder. It also adds a harshness that is particularly fatiguing so don't over do it. Because of the high sensitivity in this region you can add warmth without loss of clarity by attenuating this region a bit. 7kHz-, Cymbals etc, and all the other components that add the sense of quality and accuracy. Above 10kHz too much output may make your recordings sound like they are lacking some definition. If your tracks lack warmth and have too much sibilance you either have too little output below 500Hz or too much above 3kHz. A generally good balance will be pretty flat from around 60Hz up to 1-2kHz and then rolling off to be around 10-20 dB down at 10kHz. How much tapering at the spectrum ends you'll need will depend on the nature of the music. If there are some sharp peaks in the peak spectrum (yellow trace) that stand out above the rest then they may need to be attenuated a bit. Again, don't try to eliminate the peak but just reduce and control it a bit. A good rule of thumb would be to reduce the peak so that it is about as high as the other undulations on the spectrum. Finally, strong output in the region of 3-5kHz can make recordings sound fatiguing and clinical. If you have strong output in this region reduce it by approximately 3dB.

So, can the Proline's be EQ'd as suggested above and thus be made to sound better to ears sensitive to treble emphasis?

(This is a good little recording EQ primer - where did you find it?)

And, interestingly, this primer uses the same meaning of sibilance as you do, or at least similar, by pointing out where the most distracting frequencies for the "sss" and "ch" sounds exist. For me, it has always meant a VERY harsh mic distortion. VERY VERY harsh! Not just some mere annoyance or distraction by any means! Something requiring bringing in a de-esser to tame! This seems to use the more relaxed definition employed by yourself and also by headphone reviewers, I gather from DavesRose post above.

[Edit]: I vote for it as WOTM! (Word Of The Month!)

[Edit2]: Recordists - Pull there especially for sibilant-tending vocals, usually only a problem with less experienced (studio-wise) singers. Do not expect to fix this problem during mastering the overall mix - you'll hurt your snares - fix it in the vocal track itself, best by using a de-esser.

Terry

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since one can take wonderful photos even with an old film SLR, I'm sure your Nikon can take you very far

A wrist-workout that'll be for sure! Keeps you fit haha!
I work with both dslr and analog slr so that should keep me satisfied for a while

But I am loosing topic...again....oeh I seem to like that

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrastique /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I am loosing topic...again....oeh I seem to like that

Since we're on page 141 on a huge thread, I don't thing there is an OT

Except to answer "There's Something About Ultrasones"......yep, seems like it's another brand that can bring out more flame wars

 

[Contrastique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also since I'm getting older, I thought having a bright viewfinder would let me keep the 5D longer: when I start losing my vision

Getting older???? You are in the bloom (does that word excist??) of your life haha

Maybe you should be thinking then of a image stabilizer in your lenses instead of a brightviewfinder (or both) lol

(That was a joke)

As for the 750's....wow check out the Carmina Burana with these. That just sounds marvelous.
Or Saga with the album "Generation 13". That sounds totally amazing.
Vocals so sweet and clear. Bass and guitar just takes you away on a everlasting journey. a Nice glass of wine ( beaujolais at the moment

) and of you go...woehoew...life is great on Ultrasones...