[Sovkiller]

While you say 650, you are talking of the Sennheiser HD650 right?

Are you familiar with Ultrasone headphones, and S-Logic???

Well if not, after you gave 200 hours to the phone, good to begin with, let me tell you that the burn in process does not end there...now you need to give 2 weeks, at least, to your brain to get used to them, OK?...

Also with no comparisons, as I have stated many many times before, even in this same thread, the S-logic effect takes a lot of time to get used to it, and you will need some time to get used to the natural presentation, you do not have in your other headphones. Also if you compare them back and forth to get the differences, as we usually see in all reviews, you will be reinforcing the unnatural presentation habit you are used to, time after time, and the result will be that you will never get used to the natural presentation they offer...it wil be more useful for you, to compare them with others once you are used to them, but not before...

An advice, take them for two weeks, and put the HD650 in a drawer for that time, after the two weeks, then listen both and tell me if you think the same way...

 

[pageman99]

Sovkiller, you doth protest too much.

Let me begin by saying I enjoy your posts and the sharing of your experiences. You are a credit to this board in my opinion. And I for one appreciate the time you spend here.

But... You don't need to defend the 2500's. It's a perfectly competent headphone. Though in my opinion not perfect. And what headphone is?

You certainly don't need to defend them, at least not as much as you have been. Give those of us out here some credit for experience, objectivity, and judgement. We're simply trying to share our impressions and feelings about something we care about. And hopefully along the way we will all learn something that helps us reach our goal.

And yes, I meant the Sennheiser 650's. I could also have compared them to L3000's, UM2's, UE10PRO's, Senn 595's, MDRV6's and SA5000's. But chose the 650's because many, if not most on this board are familiar with its sound. Plus the 650's provide a nice contrast in sound AND execution to the 2500's.

And yes I understand the S-Logic. And I like it just fine. And no I won't put the 650's away for 2 weeks. That would be a psychoaccoustic trick. If I only listened to my Koss Pro4A's from 30 years ago, and nothing else, I'm sure I'd still think they're great. Kind of like wanting your girlfriend to be a virgin. Then you'd always be the best lover in her eyes. We both know better.

I see your point but don't think it's necessary if one can be objective.

I do plan on giving them more time. Both for them to reach full fruition, (if they have more blooming to do) and for me to adjust a bit more to their sound. I simply posted at this point because I personally think they've pretty much finished burning in, and because there's a lack of a wide range of reviews on the Ultrasones at this point.

You seem to want to place them in the pantheon of 1st line reasonably priced headphones, like the Senn 650's, K701's, DT880's. Maybe they'll get there. At this point I'm not ready to anoint them. At least for my personal pantheon. Let time do its work

And, yes, many on this board are not objective. I hope you're not becoming one of those.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sovkiller, you doth protest too much. Let me begin by saying I enjoy your posts and the sharing of your experiences. You are a credit to this board in my opinion. And I for one appreciate the time you spend here. But... You don't need to defend the 2500's. It's a perfectly competent headphone. Though in my opinion not perfect. And what headphone is? You certainly don't need to defend them, at least not as much as you have been. Give those of us out here some credit for experience, objectivity, and judgement. We're simply trying to share our impressions and feelings about something we care about. And hopefully along the way we will all learn something that helps us reach our goal. And yes, I meant the Sennheiser 650's. I could also have compared them to L3000's, UM2's, UE10PRO's, Senn 595's, MDRV6's and SA5000's. But chose the 650's because many, if not most on this board are familiar with its sound. Plus the 650's provide a nice contrast in sound AND execution to the 2500's. And yes I understand the S-Logic. And I like it just fine. And no I won't put the 650's away for 2 weeks. That would be a psychoaccoustic trick. If I only listened to my Koss Pro4A's from 30 years ago, and nothing else, I'm sure I'd still think they're great. Kind of like wanting your girlfriend to be a virgin. Then you'd always be the best lover in her eyes. We both know better. I see your point but don't think it's necessary if one can be objective. I do plan on giving them more time. Both for them to reach full fruition, (if they have more blooming to do) and for me to adjust a bit more to their sound. I simply posted at this point because I personally think they've pretty much finished burning in, and because there's a lack of a wide range of reviews on the Ultrasones at this point. You seem to want to place them in the pantheon of 1st line reasonably priced headphones, like the Senn 650's, K701's, DT990's. Maybe they'll get there. At this point I'm not ready to anoint them. At least for my personal pantheon. Let time do its work And, yes, many on this board are not objective. I hope you're not becoming one of those.

Man chill out, that was nothing personal, and by far any attack, or trying ot bash your review or impressions, all the opposite I love that you share them, and they do not need me to defend them, they are just fine the way they are...LOL....it is just another point of view, and I could be wrong as well...

If you still want to compare them continuously, before getting used to them, as you are doing now, that is up to you, but you are choosing the hard and longest way, IMO it is better to do it after, as you will have more elements and will feel more confident on what to compare, but the method is up to you...It is not the same case as other heapdhone, in which all presentation are more similar. I'm not suggesting you to get used to the sound, just the presentation and soundstage, the sound will not change your opinion, the high, mid, and low freq distribution, once burned in, will be the same, with or without getting used to it...

Ar per using the HD650, that is perfect, as any other high-end headphone, it very well suited for any comparison, but there are also the PROLine 650, and as you only stated the number, I wanted to be 100% sure that you were not comparing it to another Ultrasone, in which case, if you were using it, you were a lot more familiar with the S-Logic concept. But nothing wrong on choosing the HD650 for many it is benchmark headphone...but it has an unnatural presentation as any other headphone with no S-Logic...


Second I do not believe they are perfect, that was why I got the Edition 9, I wanted more, and I got more...They are very capable headphones but far of being perfect...And not even the Edition that is far better, is IMO perfect neither, we all know that...

About being or not in the hall of fame, that is very personal, for some many are not worth to be there, for me I believe that this is very personal, as it is extremely related to what is important to you in the music...I personally will place them, but that is just me....

Thanks for sharing your impressions, it seems that we will bet another Ultrasone lover anyway....

 

[tbritton]

pageman,

Consider this statement:

"Ultrasone Headphone Earcups are not ideal for use in forming hamburger patties."

Is that an objective or a subjective statement? Depends, doesn't it? Depends on how seriously you take your opinions about optimal hamburger patty forming tools, among other considerations!

Careful about those two words... objective is not merely the realm of facts any more than subjective is merely the realm of opinions. We are humans, and so they cross-influence each other every chance they get. Comparisons exist in the realms of both of these.

I know you mean "being mindful of the sources and origins of one's impressions and opinions" when you say "objective", and there is some bit of objectivity in being mindful, of course. I think what you've "objected to" in the past were unqualified opinions stated as if they were facts... that kind of "power tripping" can be annoying, can't it? Folks doing that sure shut down opposing views and opinions pretty hard!

I think the observation by Sovkiller that removing oneself from making comparisons between headphones for a while just might help in one's gaining a fresh perspective and a clean and unsullied (my words) experience of a single brand is a progressive view. It certainly fits with my experience.

I'm glad you are enjoying those headphones. (All of them!!!)

Terry

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbritton /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the observation by Sovkiller that removing oneself from making comparisons between headphones for a while just might help in one's gaining a fresh perspective and a clean and unsullied (my words) experience of a single brand is a progressive view. It certainly fits with my experience.

You're right, I'm sure. Nonetheless, I find myself reaching for the phones that I KNOW sound best on a particular favorite track. Mayhaps doing what we do here requires a bit of the perfectionist in each of us. Guess I'll have to work on the patience part.

On a bit of a side note, why do you guys think Headroom is somewhat down on Ultrasones? They seem to be reasonably reliable, at least for those phones for which I've had some experience. Surely they know phones need a fairly long break in period.

 

[jpelg]

Thanks for your very well-written impressions, pageman99. Great job.

Although you clearly don't need me to defend you, it is unfortunate that a balanced (and predominently positive) review cannot simply be allowed to stand. Anything less than a 100% rave review seems to be met with the same incessant counter-arguments from the fanboys, & accusations that something is wrong with your process, be it the associated gear or your brain. Silly, isn't it? And downright tiresome, imo. Why can't people just let others write what they hear?

Again, thanks for posting, p-man99. Personally, I look forward to more from you.

 

[Dexdexter]

Well I certainly enjoyed your impressions, pageman, and, like James, I eagerly look forward to any further developments.

Well done!

Dex

 

[Kees]

Thanks for a really nice review.
It very much coincides with my own experiences of both the 750s and the 2500s.
Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Basically, I've found these phones... different! And contradictory.

Right. And a bit unpredictable I think. I can't get my finger behind exactly what it is...
Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The highs are very resolving (I've been able to make out lyrics never heard before). But that doesn't mean the highs are sweet; yet I wouldn't call them grainy.

Check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The mids are pleasing, yet don't have that shimmery sweetness of the Sennheiser 650's.

Check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Plus on some guitar solos, for example, Eric Johnson doing 'Desert Rose' on the Clapton Crossroads Guitar DVD, which in my mind is one of the finest guitar solos of all time, the 2500's just can't compare to the 650 in sound quality. The 2500's just sound weaker and not as sweetly strong as the 650's do. Yet on the same DVD (highly recommended BTW, EXCELLENT sound quality and production values) Johnny Lang and Robert Cray sound just fine indeed.

Check. Exactly the same as the 750s do on Fleetwood Mac's "I'm so afraid" .

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the other hand, on Vladimir Horowitz's 'A Reminiscence' album which is a compilation of some of his best performances, the 2500 blows the 650's away. The 2500's make Horowitz's piano just reverberate, enough so, that that recording brings goosebumps. Hopefully, you have all experienced this and know exactly what I mean. For powerful sounding piano work (even on quiet passages), the 2500's excel; the 650 is simply too polite, IMHO.

Check. Piano on Naum Grubert's Lizst performance never sounded better to me on headphones. Both on 750 and on 2500.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yet on other piano recordings this effect isn't quite there. Go figure.

Check. Ivan Moravec's Mozart sounds distant and "small".[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lets try a metaphor, the 650's are a Steinway in a heavily draped room, the 2500's a barrelhouse piano with everyone 3 sheets to the wind and singing along. Yet, the piano would still sound perfect if the little Irish tenor sang a sentimental 'Oh, Danny Boy'.

Yes. Well, a bit over the top maybe..., but I see what you mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Low's. Not muddy, yet not refined. On the right recording, very powerful and moving, especially at low volumes. The 2500's go very low indeed. On other recordings, simply a little bit wooly, almost like SR60's, but not that bad, of course.

Different in different recordings I think. When there is enough power/dynamics in the recording it sounds great. When the sound is somewhat more soft and subtle (like with the two piano recordings I guess), it seems to go right down the drain and loose a lot of definition and energy.
I think that is why electric bass sounds usually stellar and double bass often weak, especially if it is not recorded "in the foreground".

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In presentation, cymbals and high hats of the 2500 are upfront yet not obtrusive, and the same with the bass. The 650's are, again IMO, smoother overall and more balanced overall, yet at the expense of being too layed back for my tastes, but, again, not on every recording.

Check. The 650 are never too layed back when balanced though....
Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vocals are good on both. Van Morrison is terrific on the 2500's, not quite as good on the 650's. OTOH, Diana Krall is better on the 650's.

Check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the most accurate way to portay the 2500's is that they make most recordings sound like live recordings. The 650's are definitely more studio sounding if that makes sense. Probably because the S-Logic makes the phones more open, yet not quite reverberent, sounding.

Definitely a lot more lively than the 650.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To sum up, I'd say the 650 and 2500 complement each other. Every time I think wow, this is great, I can sell the 650/2500 (take your pick), I come across a recording that doesn't sound quite right, and the other phone does that recording justice. I've almost begun to mark my cd's 2500 or 650.

Get your 650s balanced and see what happens then....
Now I've seriously begun wondering what would happen if my 2500 or 750 were balanced......

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're right, I'm sure. Nonetheless, I find myself reaching for the phones that I KNOW sound best on a particular favorite track. Mayhaps doing what we do here requires a bit of the perfectionist in each of us. Guess I'll have to work on the patience part. On a bit of a side note, why do you guys think Headroom is somewhat down on Ultrasones? They seem to be reasonably reliable, at least for those phones for which I've had some experience. Surely they know phones need a fairly long break in period.

Man I don't know why they are down on Ultrasone, but also the are high in a lot of brands I do not like, and in a lot of headphones and sound signatures that I do not even bother to consider around me neither, as a general rule, I tend not to trust any others opinion, but my ears, specially while they are dealers, and sell the products in question, but others do.

BTW you did triy them already, now answer to yourself, if you really consider that they are right or wrong??? Also keep in mind that those are their opinions, based in their experiences...that in this case may be extensive or not...

BTW Ultrasone do not need their good opinions to survive, trust me on that, the pro industry are making them really good justice, and evne here we began to do it as well....(but still they sell them, right?...

)

And sorry but is not perfection what you need, just common sense, as this headphones offer something new, and in order that your brain can assimilate this new feature, you need to treat them a little different, until you get used to them (what James wisely called brain transplant) nothing else (same as crossfeed, if you have never used them, now are you telling me that you can take any amp with crossfeed and compare it straight our of the bat with any other without)...If they were any other headphone I would not say anything, even while sometimes you need time to get used to a given signature, coming from a different one, like going from Senns to Grado, for example, and so on....


James any review is perfectly fine, balanced or not, positive or negative, as they are just opinions based in personal experiences, and as not everyobdy has the same experiences, we can't expect everybody to have the same opinions. My only remark, is that in this particular case, and just IMO, he may need more time with them before go an doing those comparisons, now if after some time he still consider the same, good!!! and nothing wrong on that, that is his opinion, based in his experience (but this time a more accurate experience...though a more accurate opinion we may say....)

 

[slwiser]

It seems from reading all around here that the main problem with the ultrasones is that they required a bit of patience which is not a human characteristic that is in excess in anyone. They require more burn-in time than most equipment and therefore gets the resulting detractors that it has.

 

[Dexdexter]

Well stated, sl.

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Get your 650s balanced and see what happens then.... Now I've seriously begun wondering what would happen if my 2500 or 750 were balanced......

Thanks for your support. I do trust my ears but it's always nice to here others concur just to make sure I haven't suddenly gone off the deep end.

Balanced. Yeah... I've been considering this ever since I got them (both the 650's and 2500's) Especially since at home I have the DEQ/SRC 2496's which offer balanced output. On the other hand I didn't want to bother with the balanced outputs in the DAC, really just wanted a good midprice DAC to compare/contrast w/ the Behringer stuff. Plus I really like my Mapletree especially with the Telefunken ECC83. An exceptional tube, BTW.

I suppose I should just buy a Lavry and get the 650's balanced. OTOH the good Dr. at Mapletree is not sold on balanced vs plain old S/PDIF. IMO the balanced SHOULD open up the 650's if only because of the additional juice. But who knows...decisions, decisions; but that's the fun part, I guess.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your support. I do trust my ears but it's always nice to here others concur just to make sure I haven't suddenly gone off the deep end. Balanced. Yeah... I've been considering this ever since I got them (both the 650's and 2500's) Especially since at home I have the DEQ/SRC 2496's which offer balanced output. On the other hand I didn't want to bother with the balanced outputs in the DAC, really just wanted a good midprice DAC to compare/contrast w/ the Behringer stuff. Plus I really like my Mapletree especially with the Telefunken ECC83. An exceptional tube, BTW. I suppose I should just buy a Lavry and get the 650's balanced. OTOH the good Dr. at Mapletree is not sold on balanced vs plain old S/PDIF. IMO the balanced SHOULD open up the 650's if only because of the additional juice. But who knows...decisions, decisions; but that's the fun part, I guess.

The HD650 is IMO one of these headphones that benefit greatly from the balanced topology, not sure about others, but this one at least is indeed one fo them...
Many manufacturers consider going balanced just for pro purposes, while the lengths are considerable, others do not recommend to go balanced, or reco the use of the unbalanced over the balanced in some cases...you have to hear and determine what is best suited for your personal taste, keep always in mind that different is not equal always to better...

 

[pageman99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Man I don't know why they are down on Ultrasone... (edited by pageman99 for brevity) BTW you did triy them already, now answer to yourself, if you really consider that they are right or wrong??? Also keep in mind that those are their opinions, based in their experiences...that in this case may be extensive or not...

Oh, there's no doubt I like their sound signature I think they got the 2500's pretty darn close to perfect for my tastes as far as signature, and I hope that shows in my impressions.

I just would like that signature combined with the Senn 650's refinement. But I expect that to take time and experience. I certainly hope Ultrasone keeps working on that and takes Sennheiser's continual refinement approach rather than wholesale changes just for the sake of the marketing department.

And I'm well aware of the acceptance of Ultrasones in the professional community. Producers and engineers love their signature, which gives a very realistic, speaker-like sound. Makes their job much easier.

As far as SL's comments about break in, I agree as far as it goes. I certainly hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the 2500's will improve much beyond what I've heard at this point. Time will tell. If they do change, or if my perceptions

do, I'll update, of course.

 

[Dexdexter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif On a bit of a side note, why do you guys think Headroom is somewhat down on Ultrasones? They seem to be reasonably reliable, at least for those phones for which I've had some experience. Surely they know phones need a fairly long break in period.

Now that is kind of a head-scratcher isn't it? They must sell a few Ultrasones despite their lukewarm write-ups, otherwise you'd think they'd just dump the brand. They couldn't even be bothered to rate the HFI-2200 ULE, the open-back counterpart of the PROline 650, which they appear to like. Go figure.