[wolfstar76]

I think both echo, decay, and the speed of the driver are part of it. When listening to live music you get a very large part of a note through thousands of reflections from the surroundings that reach your eardrum at very different moments, therefore coming across as slower, thicker, whatever. An IEM can't mimic that but the technically inferior DD is so slow by itself that it actually mimics that live experience better than other drivers.

EDIT: Funny enough this links to my YT remarks, as less quality produces a more lifelike sound in this case, and objective quality sounds inferior instead.

drftr

Some of the stuff you mentioned is due to the source, such as reverb/echo, that must be come from the recordings (such as live performance or studio). For the quality of different types driver, whether they can realistically reproduce those from the recording, is what we are talking about.

I still have a strong faith in BA sine it is the only driver that are specifically innovated and designed for IEMs, other innovations that shrink the drivers from full size headphones, such as planar or est, or even new form of DD (such as the new MST driver used in Rhapsodio Supreme Mk3) may also bring better sound in the future.

 

[drftr]

That's not entirely true, he did say that IEMs are more personal and that he prefers them over headphones. He enjoys the technical and science aspects a lot, too. I am sure that's why he does what he does for a living.

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with how anyone else values sound quality. He explains that they measure differently, for what reasons, what the challenges for a manufacturer are, and what he prefers himself. I can't find any quality measure in that. Not objectively, but not subjectively either.

As in: I can also say I prefer IEMs but I don't need 3 videos for that. It's right there in 3 words: "I prefer IEMs". Which is not true, but that's besides the point

drftr

 

[drftr]

For the quality of different types driver, whether they can realistically reproduce those from the recording, is what we are talking about.

I'm not though. I will never argue that DD gets you closest to the recording as that's a losing game. I will argue that DD gets me closer to circumventing a studio recording and pretending I'm at a live performance though.

We all want something different from our listening sessions and that's okay in my book.

drftr

 

[MSwiss]

Your last sentence sums it up for me

“We all want something different from our listening sessions and that's okay in my book.”

I’ll go as far to say it depends on my mood, tonight I have my Hifi on because I wanted to feel the music. Sometimes I’ll use the Utopia as the detail is wonderful and it’s different delivery than hifi or iems . I pick the IEMs when I want a really intimate session with no external distractions at all.

 

[AxLvR]

I'm not though. I will never argue that DD gets you closest to the recording as that's a losing game. I will argue that DD gets me closer to circumventing a studio recording and pretending I'm at a live performance though.

We all want something different from our listening sessions and that's okay in my book.

drftr

I won't argue whether you prefer DD, BA, EST, BCD, Piezo or Planar for giving the best sound reproduction for you, but I will argue that you don't want to miss our lunch or dinner sessions in SG Canjam 2024

 

[drftr]

I won't argue whether you prefer DD, BA, EST, BCD, Piezo or Planar for giving the best sound reproduction for you, but I will argue that you don't want to miss our lunch or dinner sessions in SG Canjam 2024

Emotional blackmail is a thing!

Unfortunately your tone strikes the wrong note as you have to subjectively consider my objective weight. Or the other way 'round. Something like that. I think.

DeeDeeOrDie

drftr - emotionally preparing for CJ SG '25 - waiting a bit for Steve

 

[Junmoe62]

I think decay (or sustain) is as much of an effect as note weight is. The causes behind both these qualities are, in my opinion, the weight, thickness and size of the diaphragm within them. If you notice the order you've put the driver technologies - DD > BA > EST - they're in order of how heavy, large (or small) and quick their respective diaphragms are. DDs tend to be large with heavier films, so they move slower and hit harder, resulting in a heavier, more physical, more tactile note. On the opposite end is the extremely nimble EST, which moves quicker and produces light, dainty, feathery notes. BCDs have larger diaphragms too, which is probably how they add substantiality and weight.

If you took this concept to the drum kit, you'd see a near-perfect facsimile. The smaller toms are higher in tone with less punch and a quicker decay, while the huge floor tom is deep in tone, extremely punchy and sustains for ages. So, I wouldn't say decay causes notes to have weight. But, it can be argued that the things that give notes sustain is what gives them weight as well.

Hi Daniel!

As always, thank you for taking the time to share all those excellent explanations! I’ve learnt so much reading your posts throughout the years! You genuinely rock!

I’m in no way expert in the field and am curious in knowing more on the subject , so I hope you guys can correct me if I’m saying nonsense!
Maybe I have the wrong idea about what note weight truly is, but I would relate it in some way to the physicality of the notes?! Therefore, I’m surprised you guys didn’t mention the attack of notes, as I feel it is as important (if not more so) to the perception of note impact and weight as decay is.

Also, from your previous message you were saying that note weight is closely linked to mid bass. Does that mean note weight in the upper mids or trebles area doesn’t exist? I’m asking that because for example, I’m finding Ragnar‘s top end to have more substance and “weight “ to its notes than Annihilator for instance, that I feel more ethereal and light weight in its presentation. I would also mostly attribute this palpable sense to the attack of the notes that are sharper and more vivid on Ragnar. Maybe I’m confusing different things, I’m not sure…

For the drivers’ diaphragms and toms you were referring to, I think the amount of the membrane’s displacement is also a big factor to take into account. For instance, most planar drivers in IEMs are bigger than their DD counterparts but since the amplitude of their membranes’ displacement (as well as the weight of the membrane ) is lower they generally don’t produce the same sensation.

I might have spewed utter nonsense and mixed a lot of things up, so I hope you guys can help clear things up!

Cheers,

Julien

 

[llysender]

Personaly I dont see the co relation between DD BA and Planar and thier sterotipical decay times. There are DD like A4/5000, FD7, 3T-154 that are very dry and have quick decay times and generally follow recording decay. Open sonion BAs form the likes of BGVP DM8(im sure there are others but this comes to mind) have extended decay dispite being a BA. For planars like the hook X and pandamon granted they arent as extreme as open BAs but they introduced notable decay.

@drftr if you dont mind is at a live performance code for sounds like PA speakers? Since when I think of live performance I think of non powered accoustically venue ampified sound.

That being said on the headphone side of thing I feel that its always so slow to get interesting products. The only thing that appeals to me as of last year was the Tago t3-01, FiiO FT3 and beyer 900 X.

 

[swedishpat]

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.

Keen to understand people's views on pricing in the classified section. I'm confused about how some sellers have enjoyed items for several months, but expect to sell them used at almost full retail.

For example, there's a bundle of three items advertised on the classifieds right now. All three items are about 6 months old, in the manufacturers current product range (<9 months) and are readily available new - they could be ordered via Amazon Prime and delivered brand new very quickly.

The seller is looking to recover 90% of the cost of these items against the Amazon pricing and obviously believes that a 10% discount on new is fair for their use of the items for 6 months

I've always beleived that once you have used something and call it your own for a while, you will be discounting on new for your use of those items when it comes time to sell.

I thought a 30% discount on new pricing was reasonable, but seems I've upset the seller

What are people's thoughts? Do I have an unreasonable view on used gear pricing/discounting?

(Not an academic question - I don't like offending people and I'm about to list some items so keen to level set appropriately)

I agree prices are often unreasonable high. And I see many items unsold. Often you can get a new item from a manufacturer or dealer cheaper with a discount. I agree 30% should be the norm and 50% after a year.

 

[Chang]

I'm bringing some stuff from my personal collection to New York for friends to try, so I'd like to open the invitation to everyone again. I've listed some stuff that is harder to find in the West that might not be exhibited but might still be of interest. Do note that if our booth is busy, my attention will naturally be prioritized there, but you are still welcome to have a listen.

For IEMs: Goldplanar AMT16, Intime Miyabi mk2, Acoustune HS1657, Ice Labs Prismatica, Sony EX800ST, Acoustune HS1790 (their previous flagship before the HS2000, really worth a listen if you like single DDs)

Earbuds: Cypherus Audio Black Dragon Susvara, VE Sun Copper, Longyao/Yinman DR09, DQSM Turandot, Sony E888, Ourart QJ21, Rose Maria, Fiio EM5


On our end, Singularity, along with a near-final tuning of Duality, will be available for audition. A new prototype from Symphonium Audio will also be showcased. Come by if you need your bass itch scratched.

STORM will also be available for demo. We are putting the final touches on the regular edition, but since many have yet to hear it, we'll be showcasing a launch edition unit, so do drop by if you've yet to experience STORM or wish to hear it again!

Nightjar will also be showcasing our new line-up of cables. We have updated our website with full specs of each cable; check them out here: Cable Info. For those who stack, we will also have our full range of interconnects for demo alongside a prototype solid-core IC that we have been developing. Our cables and ICs cover quite a wide range of signatures and presentations, so do come by for a chat and demo if you're looking for an upgrade or for a specific pairing.

Special Features:
Dita Navigator - a dongle by a fellow Singaporean brand that pairs wonderfully with STORM. Kindly loaned to us by Dita themselves. Fantastically built, and to my ears, easily keeps pace with other top-tier dongles while boasting a more versatile signature and one of the biggest and least compressed presentations of any dongle. While Perpetua and Project M have recently been the center of attention from their line-up, Navigator definitely shouldn't be overlooked.

sgaudiohive Ulan - A new pure silver flagship from a friend of ours and one of the old guards of Singapore's DIY scene. In the works for years, it is finally ready for its debut as the capstone of a new line-up. With Yong's background of playing brass for orchestras and jazz ensembles, this pure silver cable is tuned specifically to portray timbre, especially of classical instruments, with the utmost accuracy. Avoiding the stereotypical sharpness and thinness of most silver cables and also the warm coloration of some modern ones, Ulan balances body, density, and a natural openness in the treble on a knife's edge. With an attention to detail sonically that mirrors our own, Ulan has neither a warm nor a cold lean and is impressively fine-tuned to take full advantage of the unique characteristics of silver in a way we've never experienced before. This is a one-of-a kind pure silver cable that we think more people need to hear.

Super excited to meet everyone again, see you guys soon!

 

[Rockwell75]

I'm bringing some stuff from my personal collection to New York for friends to try, so I'd like to open the invitation to everyone again. I've listed some stuff that is harder to find in the West that might not be exhibited but might still be of interest. Do note that if our booth is busy, my attention will naturally be prioritized there, but you are still welcome to have a listen.

For IEMs: Goldplanar AMT16, Intime Miyabi mk2, Acoustune HS1657, Ice Labs Prismatica, Sony EX800ST, Acoustune HS1790 (their previous flagship before the HS2000, really worth a listen if you like single DDs)

Earbuds: Cypherus Audio Black Dragon Susvara, VE Sun Copper, Longyao/Yinman DR09, DQSM Turandot, Sony E888, Ourart QJ21, Rose Maria, Fiio EM5


On our end, Singularity, along with a near-final tuning of Duality, will be available for audition. A new prototype from Symphonium Audio will also be showcased. Come by if you need your bass itch scratched.

STORM will also be available for demo. We are putting the final touches on the regular edition, but since many have yet to hear it, we'll be showcasing a launch edition unit, so do drop by if you've yet to experience STORM or wish to hear it again!

Nightjar will also be showcasing our new line-up of cables. We have updated our website with full specs of each cable; check them out here: Cable Info. For those who stack, we will also have our full range of interconnects for demo alongside a prototype solid-core IC that we have been developing. Our cables and ICs cover quite a wide range of signatures and presentations, so do come by for a chat and demo if you're looking for an upgrade or for a specific pairing.

Special Features:
Dita Navigator - a dongle by a fellow Singaporean brand that pairs wonderfully with STORM. Kindly loaned to us by Dita themselves. Fantastically built, and to my ears, easily keeps pace with other top-tier dongles while boasting a more versatile signature and one of the biggest and least compressed presentations of any dongle. While Perpetua and Project M have recently been the center of attention from their line-up, Navigator definitely shouldn't be overlooked.

sgaudiohive Ulan - A new pure silver flagship from a friend of ours and one of the old guards of Singapore's DIY scene. In the works for years, it is finally ready for its debut as the capstone of a new line-up. With Yong's background of playing brass for orchestras and jazz ensembles, this pure silver cable is tuned specifically to portray timbre, especially of classical instruments, with the utmost accuracy. Avoiding the stereotypical sharpness and thinness of most silver cables and also the warm coloration of some modern ones, Ulan balances body, density, and a natural openness in the treble on a knife's edge. With an attention to detail sonically that mirrors our own, Ulan has neither a warm nor a cold lean and is impressively fine-tuned to take full advantage of the unique characteristics of silver in a way we've never experienced before. This is a one-of-a kind pure silver cable that we think more people need to hear.

Super excited to meet everyone again and see you guys soon!

Looking forward to saying hi! Always insterestd in another Storm demo. I'd also love to try the AMT16 and, at long last, something from Acoustune.

 

[KuroKitsu]

It's over, Raven numero deux is listed and on the way out.

For those of you comic book nerds, this is what pretty much happened:


To think just a short while ago, I had without a second thought, listed Bird in the $2K+ category. Raven wasn't even in the conversation. Almost prophetic in a way.

 

[stacey]

I'm bringing some stuff from my personal collection to New York for friends to try, so I'd like to open the invitation to everyone again. I've listed some stuff that is harder to find in the West that might not be exhibited but might still be of interest. Do note that if our booth is busy, my attention will naturally be prioritized there, but you are still welcome to have a listen.

For IEMs: Goldplanar AMT16, Intime Miyabi mk2, Acoustune HS1657, Ice Labs Prismatica, Sony EX800ST, Acoustune HS1790 (their previous flagship before the HS2000, really worth a listen if you like single DDs)

Earbuds: Cypherus Audio Black Dragon Susvara, VE Sun Copper, Longyao/Yinman DR09, DQSM Turandot, Sony E888, Ourart QJ21, Rose Maria, Fiio EM5


On our end, Singularity, along with a near-final tuning of Duality, will be available for audition. A new prototype from Symphonium Audio will also be showcased. Come by if you need your bass itch scratched.

STORM will also be available for demo. We are putting the final touches on the regular edition, but since many have yet to hear it, we'll be showcasing a launch edition unit, so do drop by if you've yet to experience STORM or wish to hear it again!

Nightjar will also be showcasing our new line-up of cables. We have updated our website with full specs of each cable; check them out here: Cable Info. For those who stack, we will also have our full range of interconnects for demo alongside a prototype solid-core IC that we have been developing. Our cables and ICs cover quite a wide range of signatures and presentations, so do come by for a chat and demo if you're looking for an upgrade or for a specific pairing.

Special Features:
Dita Navigator - a dongle by a fellow Singaporean brand that pairs wonderfully with STORM. Kindly loaned to us by Dita themselves. Fantastically built, and to my ears, easily keeps pace with other top-tier dongles while boasting a more versatile signature and one of the biggest and least compressed presentations of any dongle. While Perpetua and Project M have recently been the center of attention from their line-up, Navigator definitely shouldn't be overlooked.

sgaudiohive Ulan - A new pure silver flagship from a friend of ours and one of the old guards of Singapore's DIY scene. In the works for years, it is finally ready for its debut as the capstone of a new line-up. With Yong's background of playing brass for orchestras and jazz ensembles, this pure silver cable is tuned specifically to portray timbre, especially of classical instruments, with the utmost accuracy. Avoiding the stereotypical sharpness and thinness of most silver cables and also the warm coloration of some modern ones, Ulan balances body, density, and a natural openness in the treble on a knife's edge. With an attention to detail sonically that mirrors our own, Ulan has neither a warm nor a cold lean and is impressively fine-tuned to take full advantage of the unique characteristics of silver in a way we've never experienced before. This is a one-of-a kind pure silver cable that we think more people need to hear.

Super excited to meet everyone again, see you guys soon!

I wonder how the SP3000T pair up will be with the Storm? Won’t be in New York, but I will be nice to hear from everyone.

 

[dleblanc343]

It's over, Raven numero deux is listed and on the way out.

For those of you comic book nerds, this is what pretty much happened:


To think just a short while ago, I had without a second thought, listed Bird in the $2K+ category. Raven wasn't even in the conversation. Almost prophetic in a way.

The red/black birb has so much drip factor.

Congrats!

 

[freeryder05]

I wonder how the SP3000T pair up will be with the Storm? Won’t be in New York, but I will be nice to hear from everyone.

I have heard STORM and most a&k daps are not ideal pairings. Someone who owns both can elaborate.