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VE EXT! But not till March...
FD7 also screaming at me but I'm trying to resist... likewise Penon Legend.
The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
- Thread starter Rockwell75
- Start date
VE EXT! But not till March...
FD7 also screaming at me but I'm trying to resist... likewise Penon Legend.
HarveyLowis
100+ Head-Fier
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Still waiting for my custom version of 18t and 18s ( about mid feb ) and abyss 1266 phi tc ( about end of march ), still not buying anything in this 2022, waiting for rumored ak r2r dap and lp7.
For me:
Hiby RS6, unless something more interesting comes out by the time I'm ready to purchase something
The Zen Pro has me curious about the Falcon Pro or anything else Dunu releases with the same DD tech
I'm curious about the FIR IEMs, but mostly in an academic sense-- I'd love to hear them but the chances of that being possible are remote.
That's about it for the time being.
Hiby RS6, unless something more interesting comes out by the time I'm ready to purchase something
The Zen Pro has me curious about the Falcon Pro or anything else Dunu releases with the same DD tech
I'm curious about the FIR IEMs, but mostly in an academic sense-- I'd love to hear them but the chances of that being possible are remote.
That's about it for the time being.
DunkFealer
100+ Head-Fier
I'd be very curious about your thoughts on the Legend. I considered getting it as well but I couldn't get excited enough for an all-BA set up. So for now I'm waiting on my Volt CIEM but Chinese New Year is gonna make me wait a bit extra. At least I got a discount for it though.
Ooh, do tell...what have you heard?
HarveyLowis
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
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Only hear that AK will release r2r dap this year. My local seller always remind me to wait for ak r2r when im inquiry about LP6 and P6 Pro.
DanielListening
1000+ Head-Fier
I am thinking I might buy the new Chord Mojo. If not the Mojo I want a DAP.
Maybe I’d hang a dongle off my Sony DAP? However that would probably only have three hours of battery life.
I need a source, that is my next.
Maybe I’d hang a dongle off my Sony DAP? However that would probably only have three hours of battery life.
I need a source, that is my next.
claud W
Headphoneus Supremus
Just waiting on the delivery driver.
Whazzzup
Headphoneus Supremus
Size and price point aside, I’d only go hugo2 versus mojo. Or go to a dap of some sort. Just imo…….
DanielListening
1000+ Head-Fier
I should have bought the Chord Hugo 2 when it came out. It’s selling for the retail price of that time on the used market after Chords price increase.
Speaking of full-size amps (a few posts up), I spent an interesting weekend with one of the beauties that was on my bucket list for the longest time, at least when I was still into desktop amps. In case you're wondering, I'm talking about iFi's Pro iDSD.
About five years ago now, my very first 'serious' headphone amp was the Micro iDSD, so way back when the Pro iDSD was little more than a rumour, I could think of nothing more audacious and fantastical than a full-blown super-duper all-conquerting iFi amp-DAC based on the same blueprint. I'm exaggerating, of course, but only a little. This really is - or at least was - my idea of the perfect all-in-one device. Tons of clean power, dual solid state/NOS tube amplification, quad-DAC configuration, Bluetooth, wireless and Ethernet streaming, fully balanced 4.4mm in/outputs, galvanically isolated by design...heck, it's literally my wishlist incarnated.
So you can imagine my delight when a friend, who happens to live down the road from me, decided to buy one for himself on a whim. Naturally I did my best arm twisting routine to get him to loan it to me for a few days. That I got to hear it at the same time as having its little brother on hand was pure coincidence, but also very useful by way of comparison.
The objective was simple: I wanted to hear for myself how much of a gulf there was between what I considered (and still consider) to be one of the best desktop sources bar none, and the significantly smaller portable devices I've come to know and love, specifically with my IEMs and my headphones. Of late, all I've been reading is how much better TOTL IEMs sound with full-powered desktop amps, and this more than anything piqued my interest. I already know that the IE 900 scale, but that was with the Chord DAVE, which is like saying a Lamborghini is faster than a Toyota. I wanted to know exactly how much they - and both Z1R's - scale with an amp IO can actually see myself owning one day.
Instead of blowing this up into a full review, here's a cool collage of audiophile pr0n to gawk over while I try sum up my findings in a few TL;DR paragraphs below...
Method:
For the record, I used about 20 tracks, mostly female vocal but also some electronic, ambient, and 80s rock, going back and forth between the two IEMs in one five-hour session, and the headphones in another session (listening to headphones before or after IEMs is never a good idea in my book). I alternated between Gryphon and Pro iDSD using only 4.4mm balanced out, volume matched of course, often repeating segments of songs multiple times so I could zero in on the differences I was hearing, but also listening to full tracks to get the 'bigger picture'.
I didn't really use the RS6 other than as a digital source, mainly because its signature is quite different to the iFi pair, and I already know how good a synergy it has with my IEMs. The Pro iDSD was set to solid state mode throughout - so keep that in mind because switching to tube mode is a different kettle of fish entirely (and one that I only casually toyed with in the time I had).
Findings:
Yes, both my IEMs and headphone sound different - though not always necessarily better - with the Pro. The IE 900 scales more than either of the Sonys, the Pro's blacker background, bigger/deeper stage, and improved resolution (ther three main differences I heard) being more apparent with the IE 900 and the selection of tracks I used to test them.
On most tracks, the different qualities of the Pro, while clearly audible, weren't always immediiately obvious. I sometimes has to listen to a track two or threre times (especially with the IER-Z1R) to hear the difference between the Pro and Gryphon, and with some tracks I actually prefered the slightly more intimate (yet still very natural) presentation on Gryphon.
Tuning-wise I found the Pro to be more neutrtal than the already fairly neutral Gryphon, adding very little colour to the sound and not really accentuating and FR. As such I consider the Pro to be more reference than Gryphon. Where Pro does have an advantage is in its control of the bass drivers, particularly with the IE 900 but also with the MDR-Z1R, the bass generally sounding tighter and punchier than the slightly more mellow Gryphon at the same volume. That said, Gryphon has an advantage the Pro lacks: XBass. On some tracks, activating XBass actually improves the bass response on a track beyond the raw capabilities of the Pro.
I'd say the biggest obvious strengh of the Pro is its ink-black background. I was using USB input for these tests, and my friend tells me the quality is even better using Ethernet (which I didn't test). Suffice it to say, the Pro really showcases its technical chops whgen it comes to the liquidity of sounds and the sheer amount of space and separation it elicits between different instruments and vocals. But I can honestly say Gryphon is not very far behind, certainly nowhere near $2000 behind. On some tracks, without the benefits of an AB comparison, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, again moreso with the Z1R than the IE 900. I already kew Gryphon's was an incredibly clean sound, and the differences could arguably be put down to the slight warm lift in its tuning.
Without question though, the quad Burr Brown DACs in the Pro are among the cleanest and most detailed I've heard to date, from any DAC. Its solid state amp stage is also insanely powerful. I never went above 10 o'clock on the dial with any of my IEMs or headphones, and that was on 0 gain - it has two higher gain levels too!
To summarise:
About five years ago now, my very first 'serious' headphone amp was the Micro iDSD, so way back when the Pro iDSD was little more than a rumour, I could think of nothing more audacious and fantastical than a full-blown super-duper all-conquerting iFi amp-DAC based on the same blueprint. I'm exaggerating, of course, but only a little. This really is - or at least was - my idea of the perfect all-in-one device. Tons of clean power, dual solid state/NOS tube amplification, quad-DAC configuration, Bluetooth, wireless and Ethernet streaming, fully balanced 4.4mm in/outputs, galvanically isolated by design...heck, it's literally my wishlist incarnated.
So you can imagine my delight when a friend, who happens to live down the road from me, decided to buy one for himself on a whim. Naturally I did my best arm twisting routine to get him to loan it to me for a few days. That I got to hear it at the same time as having its little brother on hand was pure coincidence, but also very useful by way of comparison.
The objective was simple: I wanted to hear for myself how much of a gulf there was between what I considered (and still consider) to be one of the best desktop sources bar none, and the significantly smaller portable devices I've come to know and love, specifically with my IEMs and my headphones. Of late, all I've been reading is how much better TOTL IEMs sound with full-powered desktop amps, and this more than anything piqued my interest. I already know that the IE 900 scale, but that was with the Chord DAVE, which is like saying a Lamborghini is faster than a Toyota. I wanted to know exactly how much they - and both Z1R's - scale with an amp IO can actually see myself owning one day.
Instead of blowing this up into a full review, here's a cool collage of audiophile pr0n to gawk over while I try sum up my findings in a few TL;DR paragraphs below...
Method:
For the record, I used about 20 tracks, mostly female vocal but also some electronic, ambient, and 80s rock, going back and forth between the two IEMs in one five-hour session, and the headphones in another session (listening to headphones before or after IEMs is never a good idea in my book). I alternated between Gryphon and Pro iDSD using only 4.4mm balanced out, volume matched of course, often repeating segments of songs multiple times so I could zero in on the differences I was hearing, but also listening to full tracks to get the 'bigger picture'.
I didn't really use the RS6 other than as a digital source, mainly because its signature is quite different to the iFi pair, and I already know how good a synergy it has with my IEMs. The Pro iDSD was set to solid state mode throughout - so keep that in mind because switching to tube mode is a different kettle of fish entirely (and one that I only casually toyed with in the time I had).
Findings:
Yes, both my IEMs and headphone sound different - though not always necessarily better - with the Pro. The IE 900 scales more than either of the Sonys, the Pro's blacker background, bigger/deeper stage, and improved resolution (ther three main differences I heard) being more apparent with the IE 900 and the selection of tracks I used to test them.
On most tracks, the different qualities of the Pro, while clearly audible, weren't always immediiately obvious. I sometimes has to listen to a track two or threre times (especially with the IER-Z1R) to hear the difference between the Pro and Gryphon, and with some tracks I actually prefered the slightly more intimate (yet still very natural) presentation on Gryphon.
Tuning-wise I found the Pro to be more neutrtal than the already fairly neutral Gryphon, adding very little colour to the sound and not really accentuating and FR. As such I consider the Pro to be more reference than Gryphon. Where Pro does have an advantage is in its control of the bass drivers, particularly with the IE 900 but also with the MDR-Z1R, the bass generally sounding tighter and punchier than the slightly more mellow Gryphon at the same volume. That said, Gryphon has an advantage the Pro lacks: XBass. On some tracks, activating XBass actually improves the bass response on a track beyond the raw capabilities of the Pro.
I'd say the biggest obvious strengh of the Pro is its ink-black background. I was using USB input for these tests, and my friend tells me the quality is even better using Ethernet (which I didn't test). Suffice it to say, the Pro really showcases its technical chops whgen it comes to the liquidity of sounds and the sheer amount of space and separation it elicits between different instruments and vocals. But I can honestly say Gryphon is not very far behind, certainly nowhere near $2000 behind. On some tracks, without the benefits of an AB comparison, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, again moreso with the Z1R than the IE 900. I already kew Gryphon's was an incredibly clean sound, and the differences could arguably be put down to the slight warm lift in its tuning.
Without question though, the quad Burr Brown DACs in the Pro are among the cleanest and most detailed I've heard to date, from any DAC. Its solid state amp stage is also insanely powerful. I never went above 10 o'clock on the dial with any of my IEMs or headphones, and that was on 0 gain - it has two higher gain levels too!
To summarise:
- Is the iDSD Pro a 'night and day' upgrade over Gryphon? Probably not, at least not with my gear, and not without the benefit of direct AB comparisons. It's a solid upgrade nonetheless, if you can afford it, and if you need the extra power.
- Is it worth the money? Probably, if your use case calls for a desktop DAC/amp. For IEMs only, I don't think so.
- Does it have any downsides? The 4.4mm port is the same or similar to the one iFi uses in the Gryphon, which is to say it can be a bit tight with some connectors. It occasionally cut the left channel when using the Sony Kimber cable, and I had to nudge it to one side to get the channel back. It's also awkwardly placed too close to the volume dial, which makes inserting and removing the connector a bit finicky.
- Does Gryphon have any advantages over the Pro iDSD? Yes, for one it's complegtely portable and battery powered, so if that's what you need, case closed. Sonically it gets very, very close to the quality of the Pro with my IEMs, especially the Z1R, and easily drives the full-size MDR-Z1R almost as well as the Pro without breaking a sweat.
- Which is more versatile? With IEMs, Gryphon. Even with headphones, the Pro lacks Gryphon's hardware-based analogue XBass and XSpace DSPs that let you tweak and compensate for the character of both IEMs and headphones, something you'd have to do with softeware EQ instead. Gryphon is also more friendly to sensitive IEMs, though there was no hiss with mine from either device, despite the significantly beefier output of the Pro. For harder to drive headphones, the Pro is an easy and obvious choice, and also has the qdvantage of switching to tube mode, if that's your fancy.
Missincat – Piu Vicino
IE 900 – Pro has tighter yet more punchy bass, bass blooms less into vocals, treble sounds more defined, more space between instruments and vocals, blacker background. Subtle but audible improvement going Pro.
Z1R – Much less pronounced differences. What’s obvious is that Z1R is a step up over the IE 900 with either amp/DAC. Stage might be very slightly wider on Pro, but there’s hardly anything in it with this track. Tie.
Lana Del Rey – Yosemite
Z1R – Pro is slightly more neutral by comparison, especially audible in guitar strums that have slightly longer decay and fullness with Gryphon, and are clearer and more defined with Pro. Details are slightly more apparent on Pro, though still there with Gryphon. The added space/blackness makes it easier to pick out very subtle details and stage depth cues with Pro.
IE 900 – larger stage and darker background of the Pro is more apparent here. Vocals are set slightly further back and more distinct from the instruments with the Pro, with a slightly warmer, longer decay with Gryphon. Pro’s extra resolution is more apparent here too.
Kristin Hersh – Your Ghost
IE 900 – this brighter recording touches on the IE 900’s treble lift and sounds a touch too bright on Gryphon, though still fairly well controlled. Pro’s added resolution, fuller notes, and faster decay create a bigger sense of space, with less treble bloom and tighter control of the bass as well. Sounds fuller and more natural on Pro.
Z1R – much, much closer here, with hardly any audible difference between Gryphon and Pro on this track. Ever so slightly darker background on Pro, but splitting hairs.
MADE IN HEIGHTS – Hord D’Ouevre
Z1R – the differences here lean more towards the slightly warmer, more musical tonality of the Gryphon compared to the slightly more resolving, more clinical sound of the Pro. Ever so slightly more detail in the Pro, but the wider spacing and blacker background doesn’t work in its favour, with Gryphon being more engaging and satisfying while not losing much by way of detail or resolution.
IE 900 – much closer with this track, and the Gryphon’s slightly added warm and slightly narrower stage compared to Pro actually suits this track better, making it more engaging as with the Z1R. This is one track where clean, tight and wide doesn’t always work better.
Max Richter – Winter 1
IE 900 – extra resolution, wider stage and blacker background of the Pro are all apparent here. Sharper, faster rendition of the strings, tighter control of the bass, and more detail that helps distinguish between string sections favours Pro, though Gryphon’s warmer, more cohesive and relaxed presentation might be preferable to some. Chances are classical music fans will prefer Pro with the IE 900.
Z1R – another tight contest, with Gryphon proving a match for the Pro despite the inherent power and resolution advantage of the latter. The sound also has a smoothness and fluidity with Gryphon that belies the more neutral and clinical approach of the Pro. With Z1R it’s more a case of tonal preference to technical ability between the two.
James Gillespie – What You Do
Z1R – Gryphon has a touch more punch and natural decay with the opening drum hits on this track, while Pro is more incisive and tighter with a larger space and darker background. Vocal decay is more apparent with Gryphon, while Pro sounds closer to a studio recording, with every vocal nuance and detail captured, but in a less organic way. Pro is clearly a better technical performer, though that doesn’t guarantee a preference for one over the other.
IE 900 – while details are slightly behind with Gryphon, the ever so slightly warmer tonality and smaller stage work well with this track and its sparse electronic instruments and effects. Vocals also sound a touch fuller with Gryphon, albeit less nuanced, and the longer decay tends to have some sounds overlapping (in a good way, I think) compared to Pro’s more clinical separation. Gryphon has a more elevated initial punch and a longer decay on the opening drums, whereas Pro is more textured and incisive.
Brandi Carlile – The Story
IE 900 – Natural vocals and real instruments highlight the differences in technical ability here, with Pro separating out vocals from instruments a bit better here, and bringing added depth and detail (realism) to the vocals. Pro’s precision and larger/blacker stage are also more akin to a studio recording, whereas Gryphon’s slightly looser, warmer presentation is closer to what I’d imagine this track to sound like live.
Z1R – another photo finish with this track. Literally can’t separate Pro and Gryphon here. Maybe a touch more drums weight with Gryphon, tighter and more defined on Pro, but it’s splitting hairs really.
Bon Jovi – Runaway
MDR – Pro has slightly wider staging, better separation between vocals and instruments, and more focus on microdetails, like reverb. It’s not night-and-day but it is audible. Tonality is much more even between the two with the MDR.
Bread – Guitar Man
MDR – superb remastered hi-res recording really shows the quality of the headphone, and with both Pro and Gryphon. Pro is very slightly wider, with a touch more detail, but it’s a really close contest with this track.
Bjork – Hunter
MDR – Intro electronic drumbeat is ever so slightly punchier and more incisive with the Pro. Vocals are a hair smoother and more forward on Gryphon. Stage is wider on Pro, but still wide with Gryphon. More breathing room between instruments on Pro, but again only by very close comparison. Outstanding track for these headphones.
IE 900 – Pro has tighter yet more punchy bass, bass blooms less into vocals, treble sounds more defined, more space between instruments and vocals, blacker background. Subtle but audible improvement going Pro.
Z1R – Much less pronounced differences. What’s obvious is that Z1R is a step up over the IE 900 with either amp/DAC. Stage might be very slightly wider on Pro, but there’s hardly anything in it with this track. Tie.
Lana Del Rey – Yosemite
Z1R – Pro is slightly more neutral by comparison, especially audible in guitar strums that have slightly longer decay and fullness with Gryphon, and are clearer and more defined with Pro. Details are slightly more apparent on Pro, though still there with Gryphon. The added space/blackness makes it easier to pick out very subtle details and stage depth cues with Pro.
IE 900 – larger stage and darker background of the Pro is more apparent here. Vocals are set slightly further back and more distinct from the instruments with the Pro, with a slightly warmer, longer decay with Gryphon. Pro’s extra resolution is more apparent here too.
Kristin Hersh – Your Ghost
IE 900 – this brighter recording touches on the IE 900’s treble lift and sounds a touch too bright on Gryphon, though still fairly well controlled. Pro’s added resolution, fuller notes, and faster decay create a bigger sense of space, with less treble bloom and tighter control of the bass as well. Sounds fuller and more natural on Pro.
Z1R – much, much closer here, with hardly any audible difference between Gryphon and Pro on this track. Ever so slightly darker background on Pro, but splitting hairs.
MADE IN HEIGHTS – Hord D’Ouevre
Z1R – the differences here lean more towards the slightly warmer, more musical tonality of the Gryphon compared to the slightly more resolving, more clinical sound of the Pro. Ever so slightly more detail in the Pro, but the wider spacing and blacker background doesn’t work in its favour, with Gryphon being more engaging and satisfying while not losing much by way of detail or resolution.
IE 900 – much closer with this track, and the Gryphon’s slightly added warm and slightly narrower stage compared to Pro actually suits this track better, making it more engaging as with the Z1R. This is one track where clean, tight and wide doesn’t always work better.
Max Richter – Winter 1
IE 900 – extra resolution, wider stage and blacker background of the Pro are all apparent here. Sharper, faster rendition of the strings, tighter control of the bass, and more detail that helps distinguish between string sections favours Pro, though Gryphon’s warmer, more cohesive and relaxed presentation might be preferable to some. Chances are classical music fans will prefer Pro with the IE 900.
Z1R – another tight contest, with Gryphon proving a match for the Pro despite the inherent power and resolution advantage of the latter. The sound also has a smoothness and fluidity with Gryphon that belies the more neutral and clinical approach of the Pro. With Z1R it’s more a case of tonal preference to technical ability between the two.
James Gillespie – What You Do
Z1R – Gryphon has a touch more punch and natural decay with the opening drum hits on this track, while Pro is more incisive and tighter with a larger space and darker background. Vocal decay is more apparent with Gryphon, while Pro sounds closer to a studio recording, with every vocal nuance and detail captured, but in a less organic way. Pro is clearly a better technical performer, though that doesn’t guarantee a preference for one over the other.
IE 900 – while details are slightly behind with Gryphon, the ever so slightly warmer tonality and smaller stage work well with this track and its sparse electronic instruments and effects. Vocals also sound a touch fuller with Gryphon, albeit less nuanced, and the longer decay tends to have some sounds overlapping (in a good way, I think) compared to Pro’s more clinical separation. Gryphon has a more elevated initial punch and a longer decay on the opening drums, whereas Pro is more textured and incisive.
Brandi Carlile – The Story
IE 900 – Natural vocals and real instruments highlight the differences in technical ability here, with Pro separating out vocals from instruments a bit better here, and bringing added depth and detail (realism) to the vocals. Pro’s precision and larger/blacker stage are also more akin to a studio recording, whereas Gryphon’s slightly looser, warmer presentation is closer to what I’d imagine this track to sound like live.
Z1R – another photo finish with this track. Literally can’t separate Pro and Gryphon here. Maybe a touch more drums weight with Gryphon, tighter and more defined on Pro, but it’s splitting hairs really.
Bon Jovi – Runaway
MDR – Pro has slightly wider staging, better separation between vocals and instruments, and more focus on microdetails, like reverb. It’s not night-and-day but it is audible. Tonality is much more even between the two with the MDR.
Bread – Guitar Man
MDR – superb remastered hi-res recording really shows the quality of the headphone, and with both Pro and Gryphon. Pro is very slightly wider, with a touch more detail, but it’s a really close contest with this track.
Bjork – Hunter
MDR – Intro electronic drumbeat is ever so slightly punchier and more incisive with the Pro. Vocals are a hair smoother and more forward on Gryphon. Stage is wider on Pro, but still wide with Gryphon. More breathing room between instruments on Pro, but again only by very close comparison. Outstanding track for these headphones.
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Re-discovered the glory of the M8 + Zen Pro combo. I hadn't been using the Zen Pro with the M8 recently as I found that it made the upper mids a little too intense at times. I tried switching down the gain from Turbo to High. Turbo gain on the M8 ramps everything up and usually I quite like it but it doesn't always work with the Zen Pro. Turns out High gain is pitch perfect.
Uuuuuggggghhhh....been dealing with a minor ear injury (have no clue how, but I got a small cut in the outer ear canal of my right ear) that has prevented use of any IEM and earbud since this past Saturday.
I had known for a long time (a decade actually) that I simply am not a headphone guy...but I kept buying them, and until summer 2021, always had a pair around. It wasn't until 2021 that I was finally able to say out loud "I am not a headphone guy." Now I'm back in the market for a set to cover scenarios like right now. It'll be a set that can be DAP-driven as I refuse to be tethered to a desk (I just move around my house too much).
I had known for a long time (a decade actually) that I simply am not a headphone guy...but I kept buying them, and until summer 2021, always had a pair around. It wasn't until 2021 that I was finally able to say out loud "I am not a headphone guy." Now I'm back in the market for a set to cover scenarios like right now. It'll be a set that can be DAP-driven as I refuse to be tethered to a desk (I just move around my house too much).
I was in a similar position after going down the IEM rabbit hole for a few years, and in particular having settled with the Traillii and having no real further desires other than out of curiosity.
But then started to rediscover the beauty and benefits of headphones as an alternative rather than replacement listening experience. And even more so because headphones trigger my tinnitus far less than IEMs.
DAP driveability a key requirement too. Not just power or to get to loud volumes, but to adequately drive and control them. Not sure what options are on your radar and whether you need closed or open. I’ve settled on the Elite as my cans or choice as an adjunct to the Traillii in my chain.
