[Rockwell75]

I don't have a wealth of knowledge here, but I was under the same impression as you. Tuning to that curve doesn't inherently grant you magical accuracy powers, organically speaking. General favorable human hearing tuning target. And that is what I thought more or less was under the "reference" banner. The other 2 not absolutely sure. They get thrown around and likely misused all the time.

I can see Harman tuning being favorable to, say, a company like Apple that wants to maximize the appeal of their earbuds but isn't really interested in specialized or boutique tunings. Even still I don't see how it translates to accuracy. In terms of accuracy across the board I would give the nod probably to the Elysium of all the IEMs I've heard-- but I wouldn't consider the Elysium really a reference or a neutral tuning. It had by far the most life like and natural instrumental & vocal presentation I've heard though.

Reference tuning would encapsulate extreme detail retrieval on the micro level with excellent dynamics and imaging will excel. I feel that macro dynamics lends itself to a more open and natural tonality which in my opinion would be a balanced tuning. I feel that Traillii is the most balanced monitor that I have heard on any source I’ve paired it with. Balanced to me is a monitor that excels in tone and timbre but also technicalities and stage. Traillii is not perfect but to me is the most balanced due to its tuning. In my opinion from my experience, the implementation and tuning are what is important not necessarily driver type. Technology has def improved upon with BA and DD as well As bone conduction.
Thinking further about Isabella and I wouldn’t place this monitor in any of these categories. I would say it’s closer to balanced when talking timbre and tonality but no where near the level of Traillii. I have heard others say Traillii is a version of reference but I disagree because of the upper harmonic scoop. Reference to me is anole VX. Balanced is Traillii and Nuetral would be Eden or the Soft ears Turri. Harman is closer to neutral with a sub bass boost

I’m not the most knowledgeable here and I’m just relaying what I’ve learned on my journey. Please if I said anything amiss, please be gentle and don’t attack me. I would rather learn and hear what others think as well as I’m always willing and wanting to learn more!

Thank you @Rockwell75 for the great questions recently. Love that it gets the community thinking and talking.

Cheers. Those are all valid points. I think for me "reference" means a total absence of coloration. As I've stated elsewhere the u12t is probably the most prominent example of this of all the IEMs i've heard (minus its slight bass boost). It's incredible for "monitoring" or analytic purposes...when you listen to something like the Rolling Stones you can literally picture some dudes in a studio with their instruments...but the romance is gone. You mentioning the Traillii got me thinking of "natural" versus "realism" and how I don't think they're quite the same thing. Traillii blew me away with its sense of holographic realism, and the Anole VX was spellbinding with its incredible resolution-- but neither of those were as natural in their tonality as the Isabellae or Elysium. Oh the hairs we can split in this hobby lol

 

[Rockwell75]

Also, I’ve never been a huge fan of harman curve at all. To me tone and timbre hasn’t existed with the harman targeted monitors I’ve heard! Harman excels with EDM because of its inherent synthetic elements and because the gain area of the FR is accentuated. Natural music is more mid bass oriented over sub bass. Again my opinion. We all hear differently so YMMV

Harman tuning to me lacks artistry-- I always get a sort of tuned by algorithm feel from Harman IEMs. It's like someone crafted a super shake that met all your nutritional needs...but it would not sweep you off your feet like some inspired chef's creation that on its own may not have the same nutritional value on paper as the super shake.

 

[jwilliamhurst]

I can see Harman tuning being favorable to, say, a company like Apple that wants to maximize the appeal of their earbuds but isn't really interested in specialized or boutique tunings. Even still I don't see how it translates to accuracy. In terms of accuracy across the board I would give the nod probably to the Elysium of all the IEMs I've heard-- but I wouldn't consider the Elysium really a reference or a neutral tuning. It had by far the most life like and natural instrumental & vocal presentation I've heard though.



Cheers. Those are all valid points. I think for me "reference" means a total absence of coloration. As I've stated elsewhere the u12t is probably the most prominent example of this of all the IEMs i've heard (minus its slight bass boost). It's incredible for "monitoring" or analytic purposes...when you listen to something like the Rolling Stones you can literally picture some dudes in a studio with their instruments...but the romance is gone. You mentioning the Traillii got me thinking of "natural" versus "realism" and how I don't think they're quite the same thing. Traillii blew me away with its sense of holographic realism, and the Anole VX was spellbinding with its technical capability-- but neither of those were as natural in their tonality as the Isabellae or Elysium. Oh the hairs we can split in this hobby lol

I completely agree with everything you say here! Nail on the head Rock! I have yet to hear the elysium……one day.

 

[jwilliamhurst]

Harman tuning to me lacks artistry-- I always get a sort of tuned by algorithm feel from Harman IEMs. It's like someone crafted a super shake that met all your nutritional needs...but it would not sweep you off your feet like some inspired chef's creation that on its own may not have the same nutritional value on paper as the super shake.

Hahah! Love the analogy. Totally makes sense to me

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Man I can't wait. All signs are pointing to the EXT being my next major IEM purchase.

Listening to them a bit more critically tonight, after playing all day yesterday, last night, and today, your wallet is in deep trouble!

 

[jwilliamhurst]

I also forgot to point out something very important from your original post @Rockwell75
Near the end you said “tone and timbre accuracy(whatever that means)” wondering how that translates to the Harmon tuning… If you read that somewhere it’s definitely an opinion and not fact. Tone and timbre is different for nearly everyone because we as humans do not have perfect pitch. Some very few geniuses of music have had or do have this but as a whole I think you are correct, it’s subjective to the listener and there preference.

 

[Rockwell75]

Listening to them a bit more critically tonight, after playing all day yesterday, last night, and today, your wallet is in deep trouble!

Well to help ease the shock I've been anticipating it ever since the EXT was announced. It sounds like all my IEM dreams made manifest.

I also forgot to point out something very important from your original post @Rockwell75
Near the end you said “tone and timbre accuracy(whatever that means)” wondering how that translates to the Harmon tuning… If you read that somewhere it’s definitely an opinion and not fact. Tone and timbre is different for nearly everyone because we as humans do not have perfect pitch. Some very few geniuses of music have had or do have this but as a whole I think you are correct, it’s subjective to the listener and there preference.

Indeed. I've said this often but I think there are many similarities between enjoying audio and enjoying food. Your comment is perceptive and it made me think of how, say with something like wine tasting, not all palettes are created equal. People who can perfectly discern nuance in taste are comparatively rare and very prized. I imagine the same is true with sound-- while anyone can learn a lot from study and practice at the end of the day there will always be those savants with the "golden ears" whose skill & perception transcends what most people are capable of.

Another interesting distinction I was thinking of along these lines is-- is tuning IEMs an art or a science? While there are clearly elements of both for me artistry will always trump analytic perfection.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

The Holy Grail (at least mine), is an accurate tone, timbre, with excellent technicalities (we need to come with a better description, talk about one that sucks out the romance). Though the emotion/romance will be harder to add for the masses since they both are quite personal. While accurate tone and timbre are a must for my emotional involvement, others might get off on whatever the U12t has (it did nothing for me), or driving bass of the LX (warmer).

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I also forgot to point out something very important from your original post @Rockwell75
Near the end you said “tone and timbre accuracy(whatever that means)” wondering how that translates to the Harmon tuning… If you read that somewhere it’s definitely an opinion and not fact. Tone and timbre is different for nearly everyone because we as humans do not have perfect pitch. Some very few geniuses of music have had or do have this but as a whole I think you are correct, it’s subjective to the listener and there preference.

Interesting, tone to me is a C chord should sound like a C chord, I hadn't considered perfect, or imperfect pitch, something to mull over!

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Well to help ease the shock I've been anticipating it ever since the EXT was announced. It sounds like all my IEM dreams made manifest.



Indeed. I've said this often but I think there are many similarities between enjoying audio and enjoying food. Your comment is perceptive and it made me think of how, say with something like wine tasting, not all palettes are created equal. People who can perfectly discern nuance in taste are comparatively rare and very prized. I imagine the same is true with sound-- while anyone can learn a lot from study and practice at the end of the day there will always be those savants whose skill & perception transcends what most people are capable of.

Another interesting distinction I was thinking of along these lines is-- is tuning IEMs an art or a science? While there are clearly elements of both for me artistry will always trump analytic perfection.

Easily, it's an art, science goes into development, but it takes an artist to blend it all into something beautiful. One of my (huge) problems with graph nazis.

 

[jwilliamhurst]

Well to help ease the shock I've been anticipating it ever since the EXT was announced. It sounds like all my IEM dreams made manifest.



Indeed. I've said this often but I think there are many similarities between enjoying audio and enjoying food. Your comment is perceptive and it made me think of how, say with something like wine tasting, not all palettes are created equal. People who can perfectly discern nuance in taste are comparatively rare and very prized. I imagine the same is true with sound-- while anyone can learn a lot from study and practice at the end of the day there will always be those savants whose skill & perception transcends what most people are capable of.

Another interesting distinction I was thinking of along these lines is-- is tuning IEMs an art or a science? While there are clearly elements of both for me artistry will always trump analytic perfection.

100% the reason I love this hobby and food and wine and my job(optician) because they are all nuanced. I love the gray area of life as it’s where we meet and connect as humans. This hobby is ALL gray! Haha!
I like that question and I would say it’s both! And while I agree with you; I still quite enjoy an analytical debate time to time.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I can see Harman tuning being favorable to, say, a company like Apple that wants to maximize the appeal of their earbuds but isn't really interested in specialized or boutique tunings. Even still I don't see how it translates to accuracy. In terms of accuracy across the board I would give the nod probably to the Elysium of all the IEMs I've heard-- but I wouldn't consider the Elysium really a reference or a neutral tuning. It had by far the most life like and natural instrumental & vocal presentation I've heard though.



Cheers. Those are all valid points. I think for me "reference" means a total absence of coloration. As I've stated elsewhere the u12t is probably the most prominent example of this of all the IEMs i've heard (minus its slight bass boost). It's incredible for "monitoring" or analytic purposes...when you listen to something like the Rolling Stones you can literally picture some dudes in a studio with their instruments...but the romance is gone. You mentioning the Traillii got me thinking of "natural" versus "realism" and how I don't think they're quite the same thing. Traillii blew me away with its sense of holographic realism, and the Anole VX was spellbinding with its incredible resolution-- but neither of those were as natural in their tonality as the Isabellae or Elysium. Oh the hairs we can split in this hobby lol

If it totally lacks coloration, it's no longer music.

 

[jwilliamhurst]

Interesting, tone to me is a C chord should sound like a C chord, I hadn't considered perfect, or imperfect pitch, something to mull over!

I don’t think “everyone” knows how that “should” sound tho…

I can tune a guitar but will it be tuned perfectly, doubtful, I would need the “tuner”
To do that. Jimi Hendrix needed no tuner! Haha!

 

[tgx78]

I can tune all 4 strings on my violin without a tuner when I am drunk

Been feeding 3,000mW to the RS10 and Elysium. Oh boy, they sound so frickin good on a desktop amp.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I can tune all 4 strings on my violin without a tuner when I am drunk


Been feeding 3,000mW to the RS10 and Elysium. Oh boy, they sound so frickin good on a desktop amp.

The Ely (and EXT) are power hoes!