The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Oct 9, 2021 at 5:35 AM Post #3,136 of 87,781
I can tune all 4 strings on my violin without a tuner when I am drunk :)


Been feeding 3,000mW to the RS10 and Elysium. Oh boy, they sound so frickin good on a desktop amp.
I'm loving mine as well, through the RNHP. Vivid, and mesmerizing sound. The Isa too sounded fantastic given more power. Higher dynamics and more widespread open sound. Dang, they sound good

Sadly though, the 1 BA Prelude doesn't respond well with the extra power. The sound became more distant, anemic, and lifeless (less organic) with amp

taken-1633771004708-edit-31810486427437.jpg
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 10:21 AM Post #3,137 of 87,781
100% the reason I love this hobby and food and wine and my job(optician) because they are all nuanced. I love the gray area of life as it’s where we meet and connect as humans. This hobby is ALL gray! Haha!
I like that question and I would say it’s both! And while I agree with you; I still quite enjoy an analytical debate time to time. 🥸

Just to be clear while my preference is certainly on one side I don't think there's one right answer. Like all things in this hobby it's an eminently personal choice, like whether one prefers Star Wars or Star Trek.
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 11:18 AM Post #3,138 of 87,781
Would love to hear some more impressions if/when you can. I'm literally on the edge of my seat about these.

In other news, could anyone so inclined describe for me how they understand the following terms as pertaining to IEM tuning: neutral, reference, balanced-- in particular as they pertain to tonal & timbral accuracy. I've been thinking about a comment I read yesterday where it was stated that an IEM tuned to harman would objectively have more accurate instrumental tone & timbre. On the surface I disagree with this as it's not how I understand the Harman target at all, which itself seems to me to be more of a lowest common denominator sort of tuning, aiming more to maximize preference and not necessarily having anything to do with accuracy. In this way I see it as sort of the communism of IEM tuning (haha) but I don't understand how this translates into tone & timbre accuracy (whatever that means) which to me has as much or more to with driver types & acoustical configuration as it does tuning.
To me, those three terms mean similar things, but with varying degrees of specificity. Balanced to me means generally even or safe; no cardinal sins, no funny business. It's the most malleable of the three, because - and this is why I personally don't believe in a specific "target" curve to define balance or accuracy - you can actually push or dip frequencies quite a bit before they become unbalanced. As Jude said on his IE900 review, balanced (and he even extends it to reference) represents a host of curves, rather than a rigid, target one.

If you have Michael Bublé singing through a generally-flat headphone, for example, and you boost the low-end a couple dB, his voice will still technically sound correct and balanced. The human singing voice can change quite a bit from one day to another, which is why vocal takes are generally done in one session. So, little variations here-and-there won't trigger that incorrect or unbalanced receptor in our head. So, for me, balanced headphones or IEMs are ones that you instantly accept as "within the ballpark of correct" without any wild dips or peaks that catch your ear. And, as always, correct for me doesn't align with any specific curve. It's just that barometer drilled into our heads from hearing instruments and sounds everyday.

Now, reference gets a lot more specific. I think a lot of you know by now my personal definition of reference. A reference IEM should not add any colour to the track, so the changes between one track to another can be as transparent (or obvious) as possible. If I play 10 different tracks and I hear the same lift in the bass, or brassy-ness to the vocals, or glare in the treble, etc., then that IEM isn't a reference IEM. And, for an IEM to be reference, all of its parts have to be neutral, which, to me, has the same meaning as reference, but applied to the individual parts of an in-ear, i.e. its lows, mids, highs, imaging, dynamics, etc. A monitor with a neutral low-end has a bass that complies with the tracks its playing, but if the mids and highs aren't similarly neutral, then it isn't a reference IEM.

Contrary to popular belief, it applies to imaging and dynamics just as well. The only experience I've had with a strictly-Harman-tuned IEM would be Moondrop's Starfield, which Ryan kindly gave me simply for that. I found it to match a lot of what I described in the balanced bit, where it was generally safe and pleasant across genres. But, it didn't have the resolution, space or dynamic range to be considered reference. Those categories weren't neutral to me, because the Starfield could not capture the full scope of the tracks I was playing most of the time. On the other hand, though, you can also have in-ears like the ODIN, which always sound big and grand, or the EVE20, which sounds giddy and excited all of the time. An ideal reference IEM should grow and shrink - spatially and dynamically - with the track. So, again, it has to get all those qualities right in order to be given that title, so to speak.

In reality, I don't believe there's a fully-reference IEM out there right now, especially once you consider personal biases as well. One of my references, for example, is 64 Audio's A18s, which has a slight softness to its treble and a slightly elevated mid-bass. I don't mind the former, and I actually need the latter when I'm getting fatigued and I need the pump the volume a bit higher. So, there are an infinite amount of scenarios that an IEM has to fulfil to be considered fully-reference, thus the idea is to just find one as close to it as possible for the most amount of time. At least, that's the conclusion I came to a while ago.

Interesting, tone to me is a C chord should sound like a C chord, I hadn't considered perfect, or imperfect pitch, something to mull over!🤔
I think, regardless of what IEM you play your music through, pitch nowadays is extremely muddy waters anyway. I don't know whether or not you've seen a lot of the videos about it online, but 99% of the music we listen to these days is technically off-pitch. Most music use a system called equal temperament, which splits the octave (from C1 to C2, for example) into a set of notes with equal intervals. This is the principle by which pianos are tuned, and how pianos in music production software is tuned as well. The issue is, notes don't naturally have equal intervals. So, if you take, say, the A major triad (A, C, E) and the D major triad (D, F#, A), the A note in both chords should have different frequencies. Here's a compilation of Jacob Collier explaining it online:



He, in particular, is someone who takes advantage of this to create lots of microtonal contrasts in his music. I believe his track, Hideaway, starts and ends with two different versions of the A chord. He starts in the "less accurate" equal temperament to create a feeling of something familiar, but slightly off, then ends it with a harmonically-correct version to create a sensation of safety and homecoming. He does this in his stunning, stunning arrangement of Moon River as well, where he goes up and down by intervals that are less than a semitone. So, rather than going from G to G#, he goes from G, to G half-#, then to G#. Again, it's stunning stuff.

It's also why, if you look at the basses of Henrik Linder from Dirty Loops, you'll see lots of squiggly lines on his fretboard, rather than straight, equally-divided ones:



Funnily enough, this goes back to what I said about a balanced tuning. It's not just our in-ears that can be pushed a couple dB's here or a couple dB's there and still sound correct; music itself can be pushed cents here-and-there without anyone batting an eye! :D So, yeah, if you wanna get really in-depth and mull over these sorts of things, there's a literal sea out there left to explore.
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 11:24 AM Post #3,139 of 87,781
To me, those three terms mean similar things, but with varying degrees of specificity. Balanced to me means generally even or safe; no cardinal sins, no funny business. It's the most malleable of the three, because - and this is why I personally don't believe in a specific "target" curve to define balance or accuracy - you can actually push or dip frequencies quite a bit before they become unbalanced. As Jude said on his IE900 review, balanced (and he even extends it to reference) represents a host of curves, rather than a rigid, target one.

If you have Michael Bublé singing through a generally-flat headphone, for example, and you boost the low-end a couple dB, his voice will still technically sound correct and balanced. The human singing voice can change quite a bit from one day to another, which is why vocal takes are generally done in one session. So, little variations here-and-there won't trigger that incorrect or unbalanced receptor in our head. So, for me, balanced headphones or IEMs are ones that you instantly accept as "within the ballpark of correct" without any wild dips or peaks that catch your ear. And, as always, correct for me doesn't align with any specific curve. It's just that barometer drilled into our heads from hearing instruments and sounds everyday.

Now, reference gets a lot more specific. I think a lot of you know by now my personal definition of reference. A reference IEM should not add any colour to the track, so the changes between one track to another can be as transparent (or obvious) as possible. If I play 10 different tracks and I hear the same lift in the bass, or brassy-ness to the vocals, or glare in the treble, etc., then that IEM isn't a reference IEM. And, for an IEM to be reference, all of its parts have to be neutral, which, to me, has the same meaning as reference, but applied to the individual parts of an in-ear, i.e. its lows, mids, highs, imaging, dynamics, etc. A monitor with a neutral low-end has a bass that complies with the tracks its playing, but if the mids and highs aren't similarly neutral, then it isn't a reference IEM.

Contrary to popular belief, it applies to imaging and dynamics just as well. The only experience I've had with a strictly-Harman-tuned IEM would be Moondrop's Starfield, which Ryan kindly gave me simply for that. I found it to match a lot of what I described in the balanced bit, where it was generally safe and pleasant across genres. But, it didn't have the resolution, space or dynamic range to be considered reference. Those categories weren't neutral to me, because the Starfield could not capture the full scope of the tracks I was playing most of the time. On the other hand, though, you can also have in-ears like the ODIN, which always sound big and grand, or the EVE20, which sounds giddy and excited all of the time. An ideal reference IEM should grow and shrink - spatially and dynamically - with the track. So, again, it has to get all those qualities right in order to be given that title, so to speak.

In reality, I don't believe there's a fully-reference IEM out there right now, especially once you consider personal biases as well. One of my references, for example, is 64 Audio's A18s, which has a slight softness to its treble and a slightly elevated mid-bass. I don't mind the former, and I actually need the latter when I'm getting fatigued and I need the pump the volume a bit higher. So, there are an infinite amount of scenarios that an IEM has to fulfil to be considered fully-reference, thus the idea is to just find one as close to it as possible for the most amount of time. At least, that's the conclusion I came to a while ago.


I think, regardless of what IEM you play your music through, pitch nowadays is extremely muddy waters anyway. I don't know whether or not you've seen a lot of the videos about it online, but 99% of the music we listen to these days is technically off-pitch. Most music use a system called equal temperament, which splits the octave (from C1 to C2, for example) into a set of notes with equal intervals. This is the principle by which pianos are tuned, and how pianos in music production software is tuned as well. The issue is, notes don't naturally have equal intervals. So, if you take, say, the A major triad (A, C, E) and the D major triad (D, F#, A), the A note in both chords should have different frequencies. Here's a compilation of Jacob Collier explaining it online:



He, in particular, is someone who takes advantage of this to create lots of microtonal contrasts in his music. I believe his track, Hideaway, starts and ends with two different versions of the A chord. He starts in the "less accurate" equal temperament to create a feeling of something familiar, but slightly off, then ends it with a harmonically-correct version to create a sensation of safety and homecoming. He does this in his stunning, stunning arrangement of Moon River as well, where he goes up and down by intervals that are less than a semitone. So, rather than going from G to G#, he goes from G, to G half-#, then to G#. Again, it's stunning stuff.

It's also why, if you look at the basses of Henrik Linder from Dirty Loops, you'll see lots of squiggly lines on his fretboard, rather than straight, equally-divided ones:



Funnily enough, this goes back to what I said about a balanced tuning. It's not just our in-ears that can be pushed a couple dB's here or a couple dB's there and still sound correct; music itself can be pushed cents here-and-there without anyone batting an eye! :D So, yeah, if you wanna get really in-depth and mull over these sorts of things, there's a literal sea out there left to explore.


Thank-you so much I was really hoping you'd take the bait and respond on this one as I was hoping for your pespective...I'll read through it more thoroughly once I'm done my homework lol.
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 11:39 AM Post #3,140 of 87,781
Thank-you so much I was really hoping you'd take the bait and respond on this one as I was hoping for your pespective...I'll read through it more thoroughly once I'm done my homework lol.
Cheers, man. I had fun writing about it. :D It also goes to show that perfect pitch is as much a blessing as it is a curse. I'd consider myself someone with the slightest case of it. It can bug me when the snare drum and toms aren't tuned to the key of the song, for example. But, I'm not as picky about it as, say, my GF's little sister, who'll go mad if anything in a track is off-key.
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:04 PM Post #3,141 of 87,781
Cheers, man. I had fun writing about it. :D It also goes to show that perfect pitch is as much a blessing as it is a curse. I'd consider myself someone with the slightest case of it. It can bug me when the snare drum and toms aren't tuned to the key of the song, for example. But, I'm not as picky about it as, say, my GF's little sister, who'll go mad if anything in a track is off-key.

I also have a “slight case) I can listen to a full symphony for a few seconds and tell you who is out of tune, it has not blessed me with musical talent, zero, and a curse in that it can damage enjoying a concert, or make certain atonal music unlistenable. I had to work to like Thelonious Monk, but once I understood his “purpose,” and it made sense to me, I love his art!
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:19 PM Post #3,142 of 87,781
Another quick survey to act as a distraction from this assignment I'm supposed to be working on. What are your, say top 5, ones that got away? IE., gear released prior to this year that you've always wanted to demo but the opportunity has eluded you.

Mine:

1) Sony EX1000
2) MMR Thummim
3) Fourte (either)
4) Zeus
5) Plenue L
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:26 PM Post #3,143 of 87,781
Another quick survey to act as a distraction from this assignment I'm supposed to be working on. What are your, say top 5, ones that got away? IE., gear released prior to this year that you've always wanted to demo but the opportunity has eluded you.

Mine:

1) Sony EX1000
2) MMR Thummim
3) Fourte (either)
4) Zeus
5) Plenue L
Hmmmm…I have more than 5…
1)Jvc Ha-fw 10000
2)U18t
3)Dita Dream XLS
4)Elysium
5)A8000
6)U12t
7)fourte
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Post #3,144 of 87,781
Hmmmm…I have more than 5…
1)Jvc Ha-fw 10000
2)U18t
3)Dita Dream XLS
4)Elysium
5)A8000
6)U12t
7)fourte

+1 to the Dita & JVC. Some of this stuff is simply never to be found in Canada. Even 64 doesn't have an official distributor anywhere here.
 
Last edited:
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:36 PM Post #3,146 of 87,781
1) Elysium
2) Erlk
3) Forte
4) Valkyrie MKII
5) Trio

I forgot about Erlk though given the Phonix is its successor and I should be getting to hear it soon I'll take it as a relative equivalence. Have you heard the Bravado MKii?
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 12:54 PM Post #3,148 of 87,781
Cheers, man. I had fun writing about it. :D It also goes to show that perfect pitch is as much a blessing as it is a curse. I'd consider myself someone with the slightest case of it. It can bug me when the snare drum and toms aren't tuned to the key of the song, for example. But, I'm not as picky about it as, say, my GF's little sister, who'll go mad if anything in a track is off-key.
I would like to know what is her favourite iem :smile_phones:
 
Oct 9, 2021 at 1:01 PM Post #3,149 of 87,781
I haven’t! That’s also on my list but I thought that the Valk should take priority as I also wanted to hear the first one!

Will be curious to hear your thoughts if/when you get to hear it. I was quite impressed with the Bravado II but I haven't figured out why it's half the price of the Valk despite having an extra BA and the same updated crossovers, W9 & estats.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top