[Deleeh]

Some of the really early (40s) 6SL7s can have a higher noise floor. The tone is so good I normally don't care though. I really don't even notice unless I'm between songs or listening to some classical during quieter passages.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of A&S's amps so go for it. The Kenzie should be quite nice.

Ah okay I see. And thanks

It would be the same as if I were to use Euforia El 38 on an adapter in my Feliks or something similar, and I would also get a bit of noise because of it as example.

That is then roughly considered a different topic that can then also come tubes.
Not necessarily from what others have written about it that it would already have background noise with standard tubes.

Or I have misunderstood or the translation has formulated it incorrectly. At least that is how I understood it at first.

I'm glad we were able to clarify that.
I've already read a few good reports about the Kenzie, and I'll do the same for the Mogwai.
There is not much difference in price.

I'm more concerned about customs clearance, but I'll have to check with A&S to see if that's feasible.
They are both good amps where you can sit back after buying them and not look for anything else.

 

[DenverW]

Have any of you amp and sound owners listened to your zmfs through a good solid state like a holo bliss, enleum, etc? I’m curious how the top end SS compare to the amp and sound gear. I haven’t owned a solid state amp for a long time, and never a good one, so I’m curious if this is something I should even look into…

 

[Dawgfish]

Have any of you amp and sound owners listened to your zmfs through a good solid state like a holo bliss, enleum, etc? I’m curious how the top end SS compare to the amp and sound gear. I haven’t owned a solid state amp for a long time, and never a good one, so I’m curious if this is something I should even look into…

In anticipation of getting a Caldera I have been wondering the same. I've been really curious about something from Violectric like the V281. Hopefully someone with experience with A&S and a good solid state amp can chime in.

FYI some of the vintage solid state integrateds and receivers have outstanding headphone stages. I use a Sansui AU-719 and Marantz 2250B with phones from time to time and the sound is wonderful.

 

[goldwerger]

Have any of you amp and sound owners listened to your zmfs through a good solid state like a holo bliss, enleum, etc? I’m curious how the top end SS compare to the amp and sound gear. I haven’t owned a solid state amp for a long time, and never a good one, so I’m curious if this is something I should even look into…

At CanJam NYC, I tried the Bliss with both ZMF (can’t recall which) and Susvara and thought it was great. Neitr, clean, powerful. Very similar to the CFA3 in case you’re familiar.

I tried the Enleum with the Susvara and (apologies to all fans with caveat these are my poor ears only) I thought the mids were quite attenuated. It felt decidedly V shaped. A bit unusual to find a such a tonality shift in an amp, more common in some headphones. But if that’s the tuning you like though, depending on tastes/genres, it’s for you. For me, this was one itch I scratched and I now know it’s not for me.

 

[DenverW]

At CanJam NYC, I tried the Bliss with both ZMF (can’t recall which) and Susvara and thought it was great. Neitr, clean, powerful. Very similar to the CFA3 in case you’re familiar.

I tried the Enleum with the Susvara and (apologies to all fans with caveat these are my poor ears only) I thought the mids were quite attenuated. It felt decidedly V shaped. A bit unusual to find a such a tonality shift in an amp, more common in some headphones. But if that’s the tuning you like though, depending on tastes/genres, it’s for you. For me, this was one itch I scratched and I now know it’s not for me.

I’ve got that itch for sure right now. I’ve heard very good things about the bliss, too.

My current quest is to determine if a warm tube dac like the tubadour pairs better with an amp like the bliss, or if a tube amp like the bigger Ben pairs better with a more resolving dac. Right now, together, I’m wondering if I’m “over tubed.” Sounds pretty awesome atm, but I’m not addicted to this hobby to be satisfied with awesome .

 

[goldwerger]

I’m not addicted to this hobby to be satisfied with awesome

I think you summed us all up right there..

 

[DenverW]

I think you summed us all up right there..

You need to get to canjam SoCal so we can have a beer .

 

[goldwerger]

You need to get to canjam SoCal so we can have a beer .

Will be in Chicago for sure..SoCal hope to!

 

[Atriya]

I just got one a few weeks back and I have to say, the stock tubes sound nice. They’re clean, clear and balanced to my ears. But I couldn’t resist trying many others. My favorite so far are JAN GE 5670s with appropriate adapters. The treble is really sweet and you get a bit of a punch in the bass/mid-bass. Also enjoyed the BEL ECC88, which are the same as NOS Philips/Amperex white label PQ with gold pins - made in India in the 60s to the same specs as the Holland version. They sound sweet compared to the stock tubes I received (6N1P-EV by the Anod plant in Russia 1977). I switched the output tubes to an older version of the same 6N6P’s with the gold grids for older versions from the late 60s/early 70s with the more stable getter structure. I also tried some 7119’s in the output stage but they never sounded as good as the Russian ones to me.

Can you by chance elaborate on the comparison between the 7119's and stock power tubes? Your post is the only info I could find about using the 7119 in the Echo. This is a tube that's been reported to work well as a replacement for stock power tubes on the Schiit Valhalla 2, which uses the same tubes as the Echo.

 

[goldwerger]

So reading through some recent posts here and other ZMF threads got me wondering what the differences and similarities between a typical OTL amp and the high Z tap of a TC amp would be.

Is this something even possible to generalize or do the specifics make too much overlap? So far I've only used low Z output amps, SS and ZOTL. What I've gathered from reading is the notion that the tube dominates the classic OTL sound, but the transformer dominates the TC amp, but I'm not sure how that would translate into sound. With similar output impedance I would expect them to exhibit similar behavior. The designs tend to center around different tube types, though with adapters I'm sure someone has rolled the exact same tubes between OTL and TC amps.

Obviously I want to try ALL the headphones with ALL the amps, but reality means choices must be made. For flexibility, TC amps with multiple taps seem like the way to go. I guess I'm really curious what the trade offs might be, but without getting into the details of specific amps.

This seems the kind of question that may be worthy of a reply from @L0rdGwyn ...

 

[Pharmaboy]

In anticipation of getting a Caldera I have been wondering the same. I've been really curious about something from Violectric like the V281. Hopefully someone with experience with A&S and a good solid state amp can chime in.

FYI some of the vintage solid state integrateds and receivers have outstanding headphone stages. I use a Sansui AU-719 and Marantz 2250B with phones from time to time and the sound is wonderful.

I can never figure out where Violectric stands in the audio brand popularity wars. For the past five years the V281 has been the best of my ever-changing roster of SS amps; every ZMF headphone I've had here, including the Caldera, sounds terrific on the V281. Yet I read occasional comments about this amp sounding too warm, not having enough resolution, not being endgame/TOTL. Doubtless some of that is due to the balkanization of our audio preferences: those who favor extreme resolution and neutrality arrayed on one side and those who favor musicality over minutiae on the other. The V281 errs on the side of musicality. It has the slight warmth, spacious imaging and rich dynamics that earn a SS amp the moniker of "tube-like."

I haven't yet heard the Bliss and Enleum. Also haven't heard the V550 and Nimbus, described as being less euphonic and more resolving than the V281. It does seem Violectric is moving toward greater resolution and neutrality at the top of its line.

Still, I have yet to find a headphone that doesn't play nice with the V281. Most of them sound better on it than anything else I've heard. In recent days my 2nd loaner Caldera (still burning in on a different SS amp) sounded very fine indeed on the V281, as all planars I've had here do. So do the Atrium, VC, VO and Aeolus. At CanJam/NYC the Caldera sounded rather amazing on the Wells Milo in the ZMF room (note to self: get a Milo!).

I know how good tube amps can sound with these same headphones. I'm at the point in this hobby where I need both SS and tubes to really figure out what each headphone is capable of.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

So reading through some recent posts here and other ZMF threads got me wondering what the differences and similarities between a typical OTL amp and the high Z tap of a TC amp would be.

Is this something even possible to generalize or do the specifics make too much overlap? So far I've only used low Z output amps, SS and ZOTL. What I've gathered from reading is the notion that the tube dominates the classic OTL sound, but the transformer dominates the TC amp, but I'm not sure how that would translate into sound. With similar output impedance I would expect them to exhibit similar behavior. The designs tend to center around different tube types, though with adapters I'm sure someone has rolled the exact same tubes between OTL and TC amps.

Obviously I want to try ALL the headphones with ALL the amps, but reality means choices must be made. For flexibility, TC amps with multiple taps seem like the way to go. I guess I'm really curious what the trade offs might be, but without getting into the details of specific amps.

I'm probably not going to be able to give a very helpful answer. I think you're right that it is hard to generalize the sound of an OTL vs. a transformer coupled amplifier. Within each of those categories lie many different possible amplifier designs. I've heard OTLs that sound thick, warm, gooey with high distortion, but I've also heard OTLs that have exceptional clarity and tend more toward neutral. The same can be said for the transformer coupled designs. There are numerous variables that affect the end result it terms of subjective sound. Typically designs with lower second harmonic distortion are going to give less of what people associate with "tube sound", but other designs choices - e.g. tube biasing, tube loading, fixed vs. cathode biasing, signal path componentry - are also going to affect the overall clarity and tone and the amplifier may sound less "tubey". Signal path capacitors, for instance, significantly color the sound. Active loading vs. resistive loading also makes huge differences in terms of clarity, soundstage, etc.

So it really can't be distilled down to just how the output stage is coupled in my opinion. When it comes to the output stage coupling, generally you should be getting pretty similar damping ratios on an OTL and the high Z tap of a transformer coupled amplifier. Obviously, transformer coupled designs with multiple output taps offer more flexibility in terms of headphone impedance. Now some might say transformer coupling is superior to capacitor coupling (which is typical for an OTL unless you are using some exotic DC coupled output stage), but keep in mind most commercial transformer coupled amplifiers are using cathode bias (aka autobias), which necessitates placing a cathode bypass capacitor, so its no free lunch, you still have a signal cap in the output stage.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of the individual design. A high quality OTL can sound much better than a run-of-the-mill SET amplifier. However, my personal opinion is the ceiling for transformer coupled amplifiers is higher, but you have to get into some uncommon circuit designs to get there, which are only available through boutique amplifier builders or DIY.

I guess what it comes down to is this: if you can't demo the amplifier, buy based on the headphones in your stable and on the amplifier's reputation. If you own headphones of varying impedance, go for a transformer coupled design. If you mainly listen to high impedance dynamics and there is an OTL of high repute you are interested in, that could be a good option too.

Also, you can't really drop a tube from a transformer coupled amp into an OTL with an adapter and make an apples-to-apples comparison. The tubes are used differently in the two circuits, and using a tube with an adapter in an OTL with that it wasn't designed for likely means it is going to have a less than ideal bias point and possibly a very high output impedance, depending on the tube. OTLs use high transconductance tubes, like a 5998, to achieve a low output impedance. Not all power tubes used in transformer coupled designs have high transconductance, so they don't lend themselves well to OTL circuits.

 

[goldwerger]

I'm probably not going to be able to give a very helpful answer. I think you're right that it is hard to generalize the sound of an OTL vs. a transformer coupled amplifier. Within each of those categories lie many different possible amplifier designs. I've heard OTLs that sound thick, warm, gooey with high distortion, but I've also heard OTLs that have exceptional clarity and tend more toward neutral. The same can be said for the transformer coupled designs. There are numerous variables that affect the end result it terms of subjective sound. Typically designs with lower second harmonic distortion are going to give less of what people associate with "tube sound", but other designs choices - e.g. tube biasing, tube loading, fixed vs. cathode biasing, signal path componentry - are also going to affect the overall clarity and tone and the amplifier may sound less "tubey". Signal path capacitors, for instance, significantly color the sound. Active loading vs. resistive loading also makes huge differences in terms of clarity, soundstage, etc.

So it really can't be distilled down to just how the output stage is coupled in my opinion. When it comes to the output stage coupling, generally you should be getting pretty similar damping ratios on an OTL and the high Z tap of a transformer coupled amplifier. Obviously, transformer coupled designs with multiple output taps offer more flexibility in terms of headphone impedance. Now some might say transformer coupling is superior to capacitor coupling (which is typical for an OTL unless you are using some exotic DC coupled output stage), but keep in mind most commercial transformer coupled amplifiers are using cathode bias (aka autobias), which necessitates placing a cathode bypass capacitor, so its no free lunch, you still have a signal cap in the output stage.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of the individual design. A high quality OTL can sound much better than a run-of-the-mill SET amplifier. However, my personal opinion is the ceiling for transformer coupled amplifiers is higher, but you have to get into some uncommon circuit designs to get there, which are only available through boutique amplifier builders or DIY.

I guess what it comes down to is this: if you can't demo the amplifier, buy based on the headphones in your stable and on the amplifier's reputation. If you own headphones of varying impedance, go for a transformer coupled design. If you mainly listen to high impedance dynamics and there is an OTL of high repute you are interested in, that could be a good option too.

Also, you can't really drop a tube from a transformer coupled amp into an OTL with an adapter and make an apples-to-apples comparison. The tubes are used differently in the two circuits, and using a tube with an adapter in an OTL with that it wasn't designed for likely means it is going to have a less than ideal bias point and possibly a very high output impedance, depending on the tube. OTLs use high transconductance tubes, like a 5998, to achieve a low output impedance. Not all power tubes used in transformer coupled designs have high transconductance, so they don't lend themselves well to OTL circuits.

 

[AudioDuck]

I'm probably not going to be able to give a very helpful answer. I think you're right that it is hard to generalize the sound of an OTL vs. a transformer coupled amplifier. Within each of those categories lie many different possible amplifier designs. I've heard OTLs that sound thick, warm, gooey with high distortion, but I've also heard OTLs that have exceptional clarity and tend more toward neutral. The same can be said for the transformer coupled designs. There are numerous variables that affect the end result it terms of subjective sound. Typically designs with lower second harmonic distortion are going to give less of what people associate with "tube sound", but other designs choices - e.g. tube biasing, tube loading, fixed vs. cathode biasing, signal path componentry - are also going to affect the overall clarity and tone and the amplifier may sound less "tubey". Signal path capacitors, for instance, significantly color the sound. Active loading vs. resistive loading also makes huge differences in terms of clarity, soundstage, etc.

So it really can't be distilled down to just how the output stage is coupled in my opinion. When it comes to the output stage coupling, generally you should be getting pretty similar damping ratios on an OTL and the high Z tap of a transformer coupled amplifier. Obviously, transformer coupled designs with multiple output taps offer more flexibility in terms of headphone impedance. Now some might say transformer coupling is superior to capacitor coupling (which is typical for an OTL unless you are using some exotic DC coupled output stage), but keep in mind most commercial transformer coupled amplifiers are using cathode bias (aka autobias), which necessitates placing a cathode bypass capacitor, so its no free lunch, you still have a signal cap in the output stage.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of the individual design. A high quality OTL can sound much better than a run-of-the-mill SET amplifier. However, my personal opinion is the ceiling for transformer coupled amplifiers is higher, but you have to get into some uncommon circuit designs to get there, which are only available through boutique amplifier builders or DIY.

I guess what it comes down to is this: if you can't demo the amplifier, buy based on the headphones in your stable and on the amplifier's reputation. If you own headphones of varying impedance, go for a transformer coupled design. If you mainly listen to high impedance dynamics and there is an OTL of high repute you are interested in, that could be a good option too.

Also, you can't really drop a tube from a transformer coupled amp into an OTL with an adapter and make an apples-to-apples comparison. The tubes are used differently in the two circuits, and using a tube with an adapter in an OTL with that it wasn't designed for likely means it is going to have a less than ideal bias point and possibly a very high output impedance, depending on the tube. OTLs use high transconductance tubes, like a 5998, to achieve a low output impedance. Not all power tubes used in transformer coupled designs have high transconductance, so they don't lend themselves well to OTL circuits.

See?! We get the benefit of @L0rdGwyn ’s wisdom!

Thank you for the thoughtful and helpful post!

 

[cats4cans]

I'm probably not going to be able to give a very helpful answer. I think you're right that it is hard to generalize the sound of an OTL vs. a transformer coupled amplifier. Within each of those categories lie many different possible amplifier designs. I've heard OTLs that sound thick, warm, gooey with high distortion, but I've also heard OTLs that have exceptional clarity and tend more toward neutral. The same can be said for the transformer coupled designs. There are numerous variables that affect the end result it terms of subjective sound. Typically designs with lower second harmonic distortion are going to give less of what people associate with "tube sound", but other designs choices - e.g. tube biasing, tube loading, fixed vs. cathode biasing, signal path componentry - are also going to affect the overall clarity and tone and the amplifier may sound less "tubey". Signal path capacitors, for instance, significantly color the sound. Active loading vs. resistive loading also makes huge differences in terms of clarity, soundstage, etc.

So it really can't be distilled down to just how the output stage is coupled in my opinion. When it comes to the output stage coupling, generally you should be getting pretty similar damping ratios on an OTL and the high Z tap of a transformer coupled amplifier. Obviously, transformer coupled designs with multiple output taps offer more flexibility in terms of headphone impedance. Now some might say transformer coupling is superior to capacitor coupling (which is typical for an OTL unless you are using some exotic DC coupled output stage), but keep in mind most commercial transformer coupled amplifiers are using cathode bias (aka autobias), which necessitates placing a cathode bypass capacitor, so its no free lunch, you still have a signal cap in the output stage.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of the individual design. A high quality OTL can sound much better than a run-of-the-mill SET amplifier. However, my personal opinion is the ceiling for transformer coupled amplifiers is higher, but you have to get into some uncommon circuit designs to get there, which are only available through boutique amplifier builders or DIY.

I guess what it comes down to is this: if you can't demo the amplifier, buy based on the headphones in your stable and on the amplifier's reputation. If you own headphones of varying impedance, go for a transformer coupled design. If you mainly listen to high impedance dynamics and there is an OTL of high repute you are interested in, that could be a good option too.

Also, you can't really drop a tube from a transformer coupled amp into an OTL with an adapter and make an apples-to-apples comparison. The tubes are used differently in the two circuits, and using a tube with an adapter in an OTL with that it wasn't designed for likely means it is going to have a less than ideal bias point and possibly a very high output impedance, depending on the tube. OTLs use high transconductance tubes, like a 5998, to achieve a low output impedance. Not all power tubes used in transformer coupled designs have high transconductance, so they don't lend themselves well to OTL circuits.

I didn’t really hold out much hope for a short, simple answer. Life rarely works that way.

Thanks for taking the time to write a response with enough detail to warrant multiple reads. I’m trying to minimize missteps as I venture further down this rabbit hole.