preproman
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The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread
zackzack
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Without music, I will go insane.
Andrew_WOT
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Quote:
Just an idea, can you remap channels and see if distortion moves to the left. That should tell if the problem is with one driver or just BB voice causes resonation. How does it sound on other phones, btw?
I just sampled BB King tracks called "Three O'Clock Blues" I swear to God this is the worst display of distortion I heard from a pair of headphones. BB King's voice is all distorted from 2:00 to 2:55. The duet with Eric Clapton places the two singers at the left and right stage. Eric's voice coming from the left sounds great but BB's voice from the right sounds recessed and all distorted. I am gonna #$%%^ those ******** that sold me this T1. Beyer has been known to have mismatched drivers in their high end models. This is incredibly poor display of trust for the customers who are willing to pay high end price.
Don't get me wrong. I love what T1 has given me in terms of listening pleasure with 90% of the tracks I have in my library but these few sound incredibly awful, no, sorry: DISASTROUS!, coming from a $1,300 headphones
Just an idea, can you remap channels and see if distortion moves to the left. That should tell if the problem is with one driver or just BB voice causes resonation. How does it sound on other phones, btw?
ForsakenArcher
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^^ I tried the track with both T1 and HE500. Whatever comes out of left channel sounds better and louder than the right on both phones. Vocals from right channel sounds significantly lower in volume, and also sounds intentionally distorted to me. I just listened to a youtube vid though. Guess it is probably from the recording itself or both my phones have serious driver mismatch. 
Andrew_WOT
Headphoneus Supremus
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Quote:
This is recording, I can hear that high pitch distortion on both T1 and HD800.
This is recording, I can hear that high pitch distortion on both T1 and HD800.
wisemanja
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Quote:
Fascinating but painful. The upside was that whenever you try to sell audio equipment, the inevitable question comes "why are you selling it". "Oh, well, I don't want to sell it, I have to cause I'm out of work". "Really? What do you do?", etc.
And you wind up with a lead to another temp job so there were some benefits other than just liquidation
As far as jumping back in, I'm fed up with constantly NOT listing to my collection because it sounds so lousy on my car stereo, by home stereo, and my iPhone (I'm really sensitive to the compression artifacts of MP3s--even with cheap ear-buds). And just try putting together a really sweet sounding speaker system for $3000! I'm taking the short road to the audiophile region since I may not be able to rebuild a nice system before I lose my hearing due to age
As far as hanging onto the T1, before you change, it's a good idea to try and figure out where exactly your desired improvement would be. This can be quite difficult. It is easier to identify what you don't like, than it is to say want you specifically DO want.
Now I've had limited head time with the T1 since I'm just in the process but in reading all that there is by folks who have used them (and other >$1K phones) I'm convinced that they are likely the CLOSEST to what I want overall. I feel that the real strength in the T1 is Beyer's new drivers. Unfortunately, Beyer seems to have just packaged them (the drivers) in a revamped case, and sold it as a new flagship without the care it deserved. This is evidenced by the documented driver mismatches (quality control) and lack of strategic damping. With very little additional attention, Beyer could substantially improve these cans (and without any changes to the drivers themselves). All of this is, of course, just my humble opinion.
For what it's worth, here is WHY IM CURRENTLY ON THE T1 PATH:
1) It seems fairly obvious (to me anyway) that for the quality/price-point Im looking at, there is really only a couple of current choices coming down mainly to the LCD-2/3, HD800, and the T1. The waterfall frequency response graphs presented for these phones elsewhere on Head-Fi forums really do reveal a lot of the things that folks like and dislike about them. From my memory, the LCDs have a wonderfully flat response curve that decays down the waterfall relatively evenly. However, the decay is slow retaining a lot of energy (i.e., when a recoded sound quits, it continues to resonate in the headphones for a short while). I believe that this is what gives those phones their wonderfully lush and "full" sound. This retained energy can hide low level details though which affects soundstage since a lot of the sound you are hearing is not in the actual recording. It can also hide deficiencies in source material making it more musical.
On the other end, the HD800 has a frequency response that does have a bit of a boost in the treble range (but more on that in a minute). The waterfall shows an extreme lack of resonant energy in that as soon as a recorded sound ends, the reproduced sound in the phones quickly drops substantially. As a result, most of any resonant or ambient sounds that the listener hears are only from the original recording and NOT something produced in the phones. I.e., these phones are very "revealing", "analytical", or "true" in that resonances in the phones are not covering up true resonances in the recording. Now, about that treble boost. The problem is not so much that there is a bit of a boost there as there is also retained energy right where that boost is. The waterfall at that point is much slower right where that boost is thus making it more noticable as any sound it that frequency range will tend to ring longer.
Because we are so used to listening to full echo/ambience/reverberations in our homes and concert halls, we are used to hearing more of that accumulated energy in our music. This is the reason why many folks don't like very revealing systems. Especially if a lot of their music was done with poor recording techniques--they'll hear all of those issues and not get the "richness" of the music that they want. I am in this camp as I've usually had issues trying to be happy with highly resolving systems.
On the other hand, I do like good articulation and the ability to hear low level details that aren't totally hidden by resonances in my headphones. So obviously, I want something that is between the LCDs and the HD800. I believe that the T1 is the closest to that that I've found.
Looking at the waterfall of the T1, It does not have as flat a frequency response as the LCDs. It is boosted in the midrange which can give it a warmer sound (which I personally like) but the interesting thing is that they have a fairly fast falloff (i.e., revealing) section in the upper midrange. This is the range of frequencies that the brain uses the most to locate the direction of objects thus helping soundstage and openness in playback. The lower midrange and bass areas have a slower falloff (like the LCDs) with resonances that might be making those areas a little more lush.
Now the treble region that seems to be what a lot of complaints on the T1 are centered on is not only peaky, but there is a slower waterfall of the resonances there and furthermore, the waterfall responses are very peaky as well. Just on paper, I can see where this might bother a lot of people, not sure how my long term listening might be affected. Again, I personally believe that those resonances have nothing to do with the Tesla T1 drivers. It's the case that they've been put in. It does seem amazing to me that some simple damping for the main resonances in those cases were not provided. But the bottom line is that the T1 with its new drivers seems to be a great compromise between high res and any over-richness of resonances if you can live with that one idiosyncrasy of the phones (or find a way to control it externally).
Consider putting a speaker system using $30,000 Wilsons into a square room with no carpet, curtains, or other treatment. The system would sound really bright and ridiculously resonant until you added some kind of damping and echo control at the correct frequencies. When you put on headphones, the "room" is now that little chamber (plus your ear) that houses the drivers. In the T1s, there appears to be a series of resonances based on the shape and material of the driver cases which Beyer has not yet addressed.
2) The phones are extremely light and comfortable. That means a lot to me as well
OK, so a lot of verbiage. Hope it gives folks some ideas
Wisemanja,
Your story of cannibalizing your system to pay the bills if fascinating.
But you're certainly jumping back in with a vengeance! I'm looking forward to your T1 impressions with the HDVD 800.
Moving very slowly, I've not yet found the right DAC/amp combo for my T1 and I have too much "faith" in the T1 to just sell it.
Mike
Fascinating but painful. The upside was that whenever you try to sell audio equipment, the inevitable question comes "why are you selling it". "Oh, well, I don't want to sell it, I have to cause I'm out of work". "Really? What do you do?", etc.
And you wind up with a lead to another temp job so there were some benefits other than just liquidation
As far as jumping back in, I'm fed up with constantly NOT listing to my collection because it sounds so lousy on my car stereo, by home stereo, and my iPhone (I'm really sensitive to the compression artifacts of MP3s--even with cheap ear-buds). And just try putting together a really sweet sounding speaker system for $3000! I'm taking the short road to the audiophile region since I may not be able to rebuild a nice system before I lose my hearing due to age
As far as hanging onto the T1, before you change, it's a good idea to try and figure out where exactly your desired improvement would be. This can be quite difficult. It is easier to identify what you don't like, than it is to say want you specifically DO want.
Now I've had limited head time with the T1 since I'm just in the process but in reading all that there is by folks who have used them (and other >$1K phones) I'm convinced that they are likely the CLOSEST to what I want overall. I feel that the real strength in the T1 is Beyer's new drivers. Unfortunately, Beyer seems to have just packaged them (the drivers) in a revamped case, and sold it as a new flagship without the care it deserved. This is evidenced by the documented driver mismatches (quality control) and lack of strategic damping. With very little additional attention, Beyer could substantially improve these cans (and without any changes to the drivers themselves). All of this is, of course, just my humble opinion.
For what it's worth, here is WHY IM CURRENTLY ON THE T1 PATH:
1) It seems fairly obvious (to me anyway) that for the quality/price-point Im looking at, there is really only a couple of current choices coming down mainly to the LCD-2/3, HD800, and the T1. The waterfall frequency response graphs presented for these phones elsewhere on Head-Fi forums really do reveal a lot of the things that folks like and dislike about them. From my memory, the LCDs have a wonderfully flat response curve that decays down the waterfall relatively evenly. However, the decay is slow retaining a lot of energy (i.e., when a recoded sound quits, it continues to resonate in the headphones for a short while). I believe that this is what gives those phones their wonderfully lush and "full" sound. This retained energy can hide low level details though which affects soundstage since a lot of the sound you are hearing is not in the actual recording. It can also hide deficiencies in source material making it more musical.
On the other end, the HD800 has a frequency response that does have a bit of a boost in the treble range (but more on that in a minute). The waterfall shows an extreme lack of resonant energy in that as soon as a recorded sound ends, the reproduced sound in the phones quickly drops substantially. As a result, most of any resonant or ambient sounds that the listener hears are only from the original recording and NOT something produced in the phones. I.e., these phones are very "revealing", "analytical", or "true" in that resonances in the phones are not covering up true resonances in the recording. Now, about that treble boost. The problem is not so much that there is a bit of a boost there as there is also retained energy right where that boost is. The waterfall at that point is much slower right where that boost is thus making it more noticable as any sound it that frequency range will tend to ring longer.
Because we are so used to listening to full echo/ambience/reverberations in our homes and concert halls, we are used to hearing more of that accumulated energy in our music. This is the reason why many folks don't like very revealing systems. Especially if a lot of their music was done with poor recording techniques--they'll hear all of those issues and not get the "richness" of the music that they want. I am in this camp as I've usually had issues trying to be happy with highly resolving systems.
On the other hand, I do like good articulation and the ability to hear low level details that aren't totally hidden by resonances in my headphones. So obviously, I want something that is between the LCDs and the HD800. I believe that the T1 is the closest to that that I've found.
Looking at the waterfall of the T1, It does not have as flat a frequency response as the LCDs. It is boosted in the midrange which can give it a warmer sound (which I personally like) but the interesting thing is that they have a fairly fast falloff (i.e., revealing) section in the upper midrange. This is the range of frequencies that the brain uses the most to locate the direction of objects thus helping soundstage and openness in playback. The lower midrange and bass areas have a slower falloff (like the LCDs) with resonances that might be making those areas a little more lush.
Now the treble region that seems to be what a lot of complaints on the T1 are centered on is not only peaky, but there is a slower waterfall of the resonances there and furthermore, the waterfall responses are very peaky as well. Just on paper, I can see where this might bother a lot of people, not sure how my long term listening might be affected. Again, I personally believe that those resonances have nothing to do with the Tesla T1 drivers. It's the case that they've been put in. It does seem amazing to me that some simple damping for the main resonances in those cases were not provided. But the bottom line is that the T1 with its new drivers seems to be a great compromise between high res and any over-richness of resonances if you can live with that one idiosyncrasy of the phones (or find a way to control it externally).
Consider putting a speaker system using $30,000 Wilsons into a square room with no carpet, curtains, or other treatment. The system would sound really bright and ridiculously resonant until you added some kind of damping and echo control at the correct frequencies. When you put on headphones, the "room" is now that little chamber (plus your ear) that houses the drivers. In the T1s, there appears to be a series of resonances based on the shape and material of the driver cases which Beyer has not yet addressed.
2) The phones are extremely light and comfortable. That means a lot to me as well
OK, so a lot of verbiage. Hope it gives folks some ideas
Focker
Headphoneus Supremus
I'm really enjoying reading your posts, wisemanja...very refreshing to hear such amazing technical insight but without an agenda behind it
jh7000
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I agree - thanks for the posts wisemanja -- some of the best I have read on head-fi!!!
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Yes, that was wonderfully edifying!
I can't wait to find out what you end up using with the T1 - and why!
I can't wait to find out what you end up using with the T1 - and why!
Blisse
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WHY DO YOU ONLY HAVE 3 POSTS O WISE MANJA. That was really well written.
nawkpal
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Could anyone help here, I'm a potential buyer of the T1, but wary about the condition of sound leakage disturbing the people around as I'm going to use it in my workplace with people sitting 2 to 3 meters away, how would you guys with relevant experiences suggest me? Thanks.
Dubstep Girl
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
it'll leak, it'll bother them.
even though the T1 is semi-open it still leaks. not as much as HD 800, but enough to bother people. and in my house at night, i listen to music downstairs, like 8 meters away as i go up the stairs, i can still hear the music, sometimes i can hear it upstairs as well.
look into closed headphones like T5p perhaps?
Could anyone help here, I'm a potential buyer of the T1, but wary about the condition of sound leakage disturbing the people around as I'm going to use it in my workplace with people sitting 2 to 3 meters away, how would you guys with relevant experiences suggest me? Thanks.
it'll leak, it'll bother them.
even though the T1 is semi-open it still leaks. not as much as HD 800, but enough to bother people. and in my house at night, i listen to music downstairs, like 8 meters away as i go up the stairs, i can still hear the music, sometimes i can hear it upstairs as well.
look into closed headphones like T5p perhaps?
nawkpal
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Quote:
Oh....it sounds that T1 leaks quite crazily, iirc T5p is the same or about the same price as T1, but sound not as good as T1, so I'd like to consider other closed cans instead.
Oh....it sounds that T1 leaks quite crazily, iirc T5p is the same or about the same price as T1, but sound not as good as T1, so I'd like to consider other closed cans instead.
bundynice
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Simple, non-damaging mods are hardly a major problem
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