[tdockweiler]

Quote:

KRK KNS8400 or Audio-Technica ATH M50 ?  I've narrowed my choices down to these two.

M50 if you require more mid-bass and want less forward mids. 8400 probably has better sub-bass, but most people will ignore this and complain it's bass light due to de-emphasized mid-bass.
The white boxed M50 is good, but I think the 8400 has the edge for me. Seems a bit more balanced.
 
M50 might be easier to drive too, but not sure yet.
 
M50 is also much warmer I think, which some may prefer.

 

[Zombie_X]

Travis,
 
They are growing on me, but I feel my modded SRH-440 is better. I did Dynamat Extreme of the driver, inside of the cup, applied adhesive felt tot he back of the cup, and added some fiberloft stuffing. They are not that bright anymore, the bass has come forward, and no more resonances.
 
The 8400 sounds to lean for me, even leaner than the K702. They are extremely detailed but the soundstage is small. The bass makes an appearance once I plug it into my V200 or ROC. The Auditor sounds good with them but the sound is kind of bloated. 
 
I've been listening to the Panasonic RP-HTF600-S recently and I love those as well. They sound like a more lively HD650, but clearly not as refined. I do love they are brighter, and only $30! 

 

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

Travis,
 
They are growing on me, but I feel my modded SRH-440 is better. I did Dynamat Extreme of the driver, inside of the cup, applied adhesive felt tot he back of the cup, and added some fiberloft stuffing. They are not that bright anymore, the bass has come forward, and no more resonances.
 
The 8400 sounds to lean for me, even leaner than the K702. They are extremely detailed but the soundstage is small. The bass makes an appearance once I plug it into my V200 or ROC. The Auditor sounds good with them but the sound is kind of bloated. 
 
I've been listening to the Panasonic RP-HTF600-S recently and I love those as well. They sound like a more lively HD650, but clearly not as refined. I do love they are brighter, and only $30! 

 
Sounds like you may prefer a headphone that's slightly warmer than I do. I generally can't stand a headphone that's too warm. I think the HD-600 or AKG K601 is my limit.
Based on memory, the SRH-440 is fairly warm and fuller sounding than the KRKs isn't it? This doesn't mean much to me. I don't find the 8400 too thin or lean. Definitely not compared to the A/250 or DT-880

 
I have the HTF600, but it's better than the joke of a headphone the Kicker HP541 (the last FOTM). The HTF600 does seem to have very forward low mids and a lot of bass, including sub-bass, but i'm not a fan of it really. It seems fairly congested and it's randomly not too clear. This seems to vary between songs. It's bass is also not accurate and a bit bloated. There is some bass bleed, which is annoying, but not too bad.
 
There's actually not enough treble on the HTF for me. I actually prefer an EQed XB500 to the HTF600. The XB500 to me is unlistenable without EQ and the HTF600 is ok without one. I would say the HTF600 isn't bad for $30. I can see why bassheads might like it.
 
I still think the best $50 headphone is the Beyerdynamic DT-235 or old Maxell DHP-II (yes, a Maxell!)
 
 

 

[roma101]

I have to say, I am really loving these more by the day. This is one of the first set of cans that I can say everything is perfectly balanced while having a highly engaging and refined sound. I'm also very picky about tonality/timbre, and while these may not be totally perfect, they do a damn good job. Love the quality of the bass also and how low it extends (for me the bass is more prominent than a headphone like the M50, only because of the better extension). I love the way drums are produced and I love the detail. Definitely one of the best bang for buck headphones out there.

 

[zazex]

Quote:

I have to say, I am really loving these more by the day. This is one of the first set of cans that I can say everything is perfectly balanced while having a highly engaging and refined sound. I'm also very picky about tonality/timbre, and while these may not be totally perfect, they do a damn good job. Love the quality of the bass also and how low it extends (for me the bass is more prominent than a headphone like the M50, only because of the better extension). I love the way drums are produced and I love the detail. Definitely one of the best bang for buck headphones out there.

Yes, and with just a touch more bass they'd be the "pick of the litter" IMO.
 
 
(Just sold my 8400's and thought I'd add my thoughts to this lengthy thread.)

 

[electropop]

Quote:

Yes, and with just a touch more bass they'd be the "pick of the litter" IMO.
 
 
(Just sold my 8400's and thought I'd add my thoughts to this lengthy thread.)

Touch less mid-bass for more linearity and control, then we'd be talking

 

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

Touch less mid-bass for more linearity and control, then we'd be talking

Did you know you're probably the only one in the world who wants LESS mid-bass on the 8400?

 

 

[roma101]

Quote:

I have to say, I am really loving these more by the day. This is one of the first set of cans that I can say everything is perfectly balanced while having a highly engaging and refined sound. I'm also very picky about tonality/timbre, and while these may not be totally perfect, they do a damn good job. Love the quality of the bass also and how low it extends (for me the bass is more prominent than a headphone like the M50, only because of the better extension). I love the way drums are produced and I love the detail. Definitely one of the best bang for buck headphones out there.

Yes, and with just a touch more bass they'd be the "pick of the litter" IMO.
 
 
(Just sold my 8400's and thought I'd add my thoughts to this lengthy thread.)

Just sold mine also to fund the Z1000 (although I may pick them back up in the future). Since you've had the 8400, can you compare more or less the bass and detail level between both? Does the Z1000 surpass it in those areas? Thanks again for the input!

 

[zazex]

Quote:

Just sold mine also to fund the Z1000 (although I may pick them back up in the future). Since you've had the 8400, can you compare more or less the bass and detail level between both? Does the Z1000 surpass it in those areas? Thanks again for the input!

To my ears, the bass on the Z1000's is much superior. 
It goes much deeper yet it's controlled and articulate.
No comparison there at all.
 
As for detail level - I found the clarity of the 8400's, especially through the midrange, to be their strongest attribute.
(Not sure if detail level and clarity are identical, but they're definitely related...)
The Sony's produce excellent detail, but the presentation is - I'll say "softer"; as well as smoother and more coherent.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[roma101]

 
Quote:

To my ears, the bass on the Z1000's is much superior. 
It goes much deeper yet it's controlled and articulate.
No comparison there at all.
 
As for detail level - I found the clarity of the 8400's, especially through the midrange, to be their strongest attribute.
(Not sure if detail level and clarity are identical, but they're definitely related...)
The Sony's produce excellent detail, but the presentation is - I'll say "softer"; as well as smoother and more coherent.
 
 
 
 
 

 

Thanks again for all the useful info. I recently got to try the Z1000 (and I'm now awaiting a pair) and I get what you mean by it having a 'softer' presentation. I feel that it's very accurate, and I'm hoping it'll be the headphone that I stop at for a while. I definitely liked what I heard in my brief audition.

 

[zazex]

 
Quote:

 
 

Thanks again for all the useful info. I recently got to try the Z1000 (and I'm now awaiting a pair) and I get what you mean by it having a 'softer' presentation. I feel that it's very accurate, and I'm hoping it'll be the headphone that I stop at for a while. I definitely liked what I heard in my brief audition.

 

You're very welcome, my pleasure.
 
I appreciate your posting this follow-up, and will say that my perceptions of the Z1000's
haven't changed.  For me they're not only "keepers; they're "long-term keepers".
For truly closed headphones up to and including this price range, I've not heard
anything better.  (And that includes the new AKG K550 which IMO are very good.)

 

[roma101]

 
Quote:

 
 

You're very welcome, my pleasure.
 
I appreciate your posting this follow-up, and will say that my perceptions of the Z1000's
haven't changed.  For me they're not only "keepers; they're "long-term keepers".
For truly closed headphones up to and including this price range, I've not heard
anything better.  (And that includes the new AKG K550 which IMO are very good.)

 

So I recently got the Z1000 and I have to say I am torn. The ergonomics are perfect, isolation is great, so is comfort. 10/10 for portable use - this is the circumaural portable I have always been looking for. Love that the headband is conformed to your head, whereas the KRKs can make you look like a satellite dish.
 
However I have mixed feelings about the overall presentation. I feel that there is a a significant emphasis on the low end, without having enough impact however. Vocals sound a little too smooth (although I experienced some changes from source to source - I'm currently using my iPhone 4 which sounded a lot better/more neutral than my 5th Gen iPod Video) and I'm not sure about the treble at this point. For the price, I think they're just 'okay.' Maybe I'm being too nitpicky, but I kind of miss my KRKs and wish I had them on hand to compare. I feel like the detail retrieval on the KRKs was a little more seamless and drums sounded a little better. I think the soundstage was a bit wider too. It's hard to say.
 
Anyway, I'm gonna give the Z1000s some time. They sound very good, by no means do they sound bad, however I'm not sure if the price justifies the sound. I also expected the timbre to be much better. It's possible my expectations were too high.
 
Anyone have any thoughts about the Z1000 vs. the KRK KNS-8400?

 

[zazex]

Your comment about vocals sounding "too smooth" struck me, because it's the smoothness and coherence
of the presentation that I find quite compelling about the Z1000's.  Any more more smoothness and they
would almost sound synthetic somehow.  
 
We're in full agreement on the ergo's - the structural design is really outstanding on these.
 
While I found many aspects of the 8400's very good, and some even exceptionally good,
their weaknesses drove me up a wall and I knew I'd have to sell them.
 
Midrange on the 8400's is overly present.  Highs and detail are very, very good as is comfort although
the Z1000's are better still in those areas.  Soundstage is similar on both, but I didn't have any
overly high expectations in that areas since they're both closed systems.
 
The coherence, seamlessness, and detail of the Z1000's are better.
Sometimes, fine detail becomes almost "lost" in the smoothness.
But it's undoubtedly there.
And IMO the bass on the 8400's, which is its most serious weakness,
just doesn't compare at all to the bass on the Z1000's which do a very
good job with it.
 
 
Are you using an amp?  If so, which one(s)?
The Sony's can put out a lot of volume without an amp, but the dynamic range and detail improve greatly with one.
 
If you feel you're missing dynamics in the bass out of your iPhone, and aren't using an amp,
using one will easily solve that issue.
 
 
As for value - I had no interest at the $499 list.  And everyone was asking that price for them
during the first few months immediately following their release.  I wanted pick them up for
about $300.
 
One day I was sort of shocked to see them listed on a reliable site for $313.
Full warranty, full return privileges, the whole deal.
I bit.  They arrived within a day or two, and I've enjoyed them since as I've indicated.
 
But I think that 250-300 or so is the right price for them.  
Still haven't heard better closed headphones in that range (and I don't consider the
Denon D2000's 'closed').
I like the new AKG 550's very much, and in some ways they're better than the Z1000's.
But if push came to shove I'm pretty sure I'd still go with the Z1000's.
 
 
 

 

[roma101]

How would you compare the Z1000 to the D2000 just out of curiosity?
 
The KRKs maybe did not extend as well in the bass, but I felt they had a slightly stronger, more prominent 'punch.' Especially when it came to kick drums, and I feel that's what I may be lacking with the Z1000. We'll see, I'm definitely gonna give them more time as I'm just getting used to the presentation. I think they're very transparent to source - I'm going to try them with my pcdps and see how well they synergize and those definitely have more output power. I think I just have to let the presentation grow on me. I'm also coming from listening to HD25s every day, so I could just be missing that punch I get with them. Also, when you talk about coherence, do you mean how well they image and how the music comes together as a whole?

 

[zazex]

I think that the HD25 1 II and the 8400 are quite similar sounding.
They're both monitor headphones with a lot of "punch".
Very dynamic and present, with a slight "edge" to them.
 
The Z1000 is different from either of those.
There's little to no "edge" to the sound.
It's very smooth and coherent.
 
I think I'm beginning to understand what you're missing from the Z1000's
since you mentioned liking the Senn's along with the 8400's.
If I can analogize to speakers, and exaggerate slightly to make the point,
the Z1000's are more like Magnepans and the Senn/KRK more like Klipsch.
 
When I use the term "coherence", I'm not talking about imaging,
but I am talking about the way the sound comes together as a whole.
There's a consistency to it, a lack of interruption, it does come together
as a whole.  
(It doesn't mean the Z1000's are perfect, lol, because of course
they're not - but they do have that quality to them which is not
very commonplace.)
 
I don't know if the pcdp, of which I have had a few very good ones
by Panasonic, Sony, and Aiwa, will do justice to the Z1000's.  
 
Anyway, as you said, listening to them for a while is probably
the best idea.  Perhaps you'll eventually like the presentation
that's .  Perhaps not;they just might not be to your taste sonically.
 
I'll give my thoughts on the AH-D2000's FWIW in my next post;
"gotta run"...
 
(BTW - what kind of music to you listen to generally?
Also, do you listen to FLAC's, 320's, 192's, something else?
Are your pdcps your main or only source to listen to CD's?)