[Bill-P]

Thank you for this post. Other than your DIY amp, what are some amps you think would do the DT 880 600 justice. I read a lot about tube amps, but I feel you might have opinions on solid state setups for this headphone.

 
That's a good question. To be honest... I'm not sure. Most of the amps I'd recommend are either DIY or priced around or above $1000... at which point, you'd want to use a different headphone anyway. So that's why I'm not sure what to give you here.
 
Right now, I think the Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II (not the UHA-760) is my candidate for a good solid-state amp. I think you'd want the ADA4627-1B op amp. But I'd advise against it because I have it on good authority that Leckerton Audio is going to introduce a new device soon...
 
Another good candidate (but I haven't listened to it yet) would be the new Schiit Audio Magni 2 Uber with the Schiit Audio Modi 2 Uber as the DAC. A friend of mine who owns the HD800 (much more troublesome treble-wise) likes that combo, so... and he's also the guy who got me into the Leckerton. I think you'd want to stay away from the Schiit Asgard 2, though.
 
Last but not least, another friend (this dude got my DT880 600) is enjoying the DT880 600 out of the Geek Out 450. I think that would also be a good budget option. I played around with the Geek Out 450 for a while and kinda liked its sound, but there are other things that I don't like (heat and connector placement, although the connector issue can be mitigated with the included extender).

 

[Bill-P]

  can i ask what does technicality means?
audio dealers where i live likes to use that word too. i don't understand what it means, and when i asked them, they can't actually explain it in a clear way.
Stereophile website doesn't have the description for "technicality" either.
 
Also, can you give examples of what amps can make dt880 as good as alpha dogs?
 
Also, what do you mean by openness? is that any different than airy?
 
sorry not a native speaker... and still tring to learn the rope here...

 
I'm not that well-versed, but here are what I have learned. They may be wrong, so please take them with a grain of salt for now:
 
Technicality is... well, basically the actual physical mechanics of a headphone in this context. For instance, planar magnetic and electrostatic drivers typically have a thin, flat membrane as a diaphragm that vibrates in response to either a magnetic field (planar magnetic) or two charged plates (electrostatic). With a thin and flat membrane, distribution of push and pull forces all over the surface is even, and therefore, the motion that the diaphragm makes is more controlled, causing no excess movements, and can also be started and stopped almost immediately. In contrast, dynamic headphones have a curved membrane attached to a ring that's inserted into the openings of a magnet. Since the magnet only controls the push and pull motion along that ring, the edges of the membrane are not controlled, and are free to move in whatever way they want. In this case, the membrane may not start or stop in time around those edges, thus causing "noise" or excess "decay" to the sound. A headphone with better technicality is one that essentially can start and stop the membrane exactly right where it needs to.
 
Sorry... that's the best way I can explain it in a short paragraph. I think a lot more needs to be said before I can truly drive home exactly what "technicality" means.
 
In terms of sound, essentially, something with "better technicality" would sound less like you have a headphone on your head and more like sounds that are coming from somewhere in the space around you. In this regard, neither the DT880 and Alpha Dogs can reach that level. The SR-009 can... with the right amplification, but it still won't be able to do that all the time due to various factors, most of which... after you have taken the amp and DAC out of the equation, is due to the original recordings not including enough positional or spatial information in order for the headphone to convey that. No DAC, amp or headphone can create "space" out of thin air. That's just not possible.
 
Anyway, amping mentioned above.
 
As far as the difference between "open" and "airy", I'd say... "open" would mean the spatial information is conveyed well, so... you can hear the distance between one sound to the next in the whole presentation. "Airy" is different... and essentially has to do with how much of the environment around that you can hear. In that regard, it seems like "airy" would just mean "poor isolation", but... I think the two are intrinsically based on having less isolation so that your ears have more breathing room, and "airiness" does add to the presentation in a good way, so that's why it's so sought after for those on the higher-end.
 
I think "open", "airy", "transparent", and "neutral" all add up to aid in creating a more "natural" presentation. A closed headphone can sound "open" and "transparent", but without being "airy", or "neutral", it simply can't convey a total holographic presentation of a recording. I think that's essentially what's holding the Alpha Dogs back.
 
The DT880 is "open", "airy", and "neutral", but not very "transparent" due to limitations in the way that it's designed. So that's why It's held back.
 
The SR-009 is "open", "airy", and very "transparent", and may be "neutral" depending on the recording, so that's why it's such a good headphone, and also why it's considered to be a class above the rest.
 
All closed headphones with a good seal inherently can't be "airy", so they may never be able to reach the same level of performance as an open headphone. But still... closed headphones can still convey an "open" sound that's close to the performance of a good open headphone.

 

[wahsmoh]

  Whoa, there...
 
Not sure how the discussion turned into DT880 vs Alpha Dogs vs SR-009, but... IMO...
 
DT880 is not inferior to Alpha Dogs. I like the sound of the Alpha Dogs, but I do not agree that the Alpha Dogs is better than DT880 at anything. Alpha Dogs is a very good pair of closed headphone, but soundstage, openness, and transparency go to the DT880 easily. If not, then there is something weird in your upstream gears that is holding the DT880 back.
 
SR-009 should not even be mentioned in the same breath as either headphone, because it's in a different class of technicality altogether. As far as frequency response goes, the SR-009 is a midrange-focused headphone with some bass, and actually very little lower treble, with most of its energy focused into higher treble range above 10KHz. It is a transparent headphone in its presentation, but it is very far from "neutral" or even "extended frequency response". It's just a very "clean" headphone. Something like the HD800 or LCD-2 is far more neutral.
 
As far as the effect of upstream gears go, I'd say... it's kinda not a lot for lower-end headphones, but once you have a highly transparent headphone like the SR-009, then every little bit would make quite a bit of difference. This makes sense because in the grand scheme of things, gears are designed differently. Measurements and specs show the grand sum of something, but never the actual way that it works. Would you say: 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 and 2 + 3 = 5 are absolute equality? Nope. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 requires 4 operations before reaching the end, whereas 2 + 3 requires only 1. Just that alone would make up for a difference.
 
Whether your gears can "show" that difference is another matter altogether, but... I'd say, the DT880 with the right amp should be able to do just that. It's just that too many people try to chase after an amp that "tames" the treble... that they kind of forget about getting an amp that can make good use of the technicality of the DT880. And this ties back to what I said before: I do not think the DT880 is inferior to Alpha Dogs. I love the Alpha Dogs... Dan let me audition a pre-production prototype a long while ago, and I even wrote a raving review about it. But... it's at most as good as a DT880 with the right amplification, and not better. DT880 600 Ohm would definitely be better for sure. I guess you can argue that the Alpha Dogs being easier to drive also contributes to this, but... honestly, I don't think that makes it "better".
 
A friend of mine liked the DT880 600 so much that he purchased mine. Since I have quite a few higher-tier headphones now, I let it go... otherwise I would have kept the DT880 around, as it is still an excellent headphone. Not that much behind the HE-560 when both are driven out of the same amp that can best exploit their sound, IMO. In fact, a friend of mine flat out preferred the DT880 600 driven out of my DIY amp over the HE-560...

I have to strongly disagree with your analysis Bill P. Saying that "I do not agree that the Alpha Dog is better than the DT880 at anything." Is going to make people think that the DT880 is the last stop on the road to transparency or that the Alpha Dog doesn't technically do things better than the DT880(which you'd have to be deaf to not hear). For example, if you like EDM or neo-soul anything that needs serious control in the bass the DT880 won't suffice.
 

 
Try this song on the DT880 and then try it on the Alpha Dog. The DT880 will wash out.. But don't mislead people Bill, the Alpha Dog is technically superior and has the deeper soundstage (not wider or airier). I don't need to explain why I compared the DT880 to the Alpha Dog to the SR-009 but they are all masters of neutrality in their own respective way. To say the Alpha Dog isn't even close the SR-009 in technicality is also just as misleading as telling people that a $5000 headphone will be leaps and bounds over a $600. I actually spent a lot of time with the Alpha Dog/Prime and accompanying electrostats to know exactly what the hell I'm talking about.
 
edit: not to mention that the Alpha Dog is tuned by ear by a guy who cares... I don't see how transparency would go to the DT880 when tonally the Alpha Dog is more accurate. double edit: I also didn't like the alpha dog when I heard it first with the stock Canare Quad... it was slightly darker and more mid range focused with more bass impact but less tight. Norne upgrade cable really changed that a bit. Just another tidbit that my Alpha isn't exactly stock either. Same could be argued for the Anax HD800 with endorphin cables that most likely sounded better than the shrill piercing stock HD800 I heard at the Sennheiser booth.
 
So Bill I will give you the benefit of the doubt that with my specific upsteam gear the Alpha Dog is clearly better than the DT880 except for airiness and width of soundstage.
 
I just don't want people going out and buying the DT880 because they think they can save themselves an extra $300 off a higher budget but really it comes down most to a preference of music. The DT880 is a genre master and so is the Alpha Dog. All I'm saying is that instruments such as percussion/electronic bass/congos sound more impactful on the Alpha Dog than the DT880. Much more like listening to real speakers. Hence the name, Mr. Speakers.. Okay that is enough but please don't say that the DT880 is technically as good as the Alpha because it simply isn't.. It's a fantastic master of genres headphones but once you get to hip-hop, electronic bass, anything with skull-shaking bass it isn't going to deliver in spades like the LCD2 or Alpha Dog will.
 

 
Here is another example of "microdetails" listen to Tool "Sober" and at around 4:01-4:03 out of the 5:06 track you can hear a faint "hey" twice in the left channel. Tool is known for sneaking small abstract sounds into their tracks and it literally made me turn around thinking someone had just came home. Don't watch the music video if you have nightmares easily and also the sound quality makes it slightly more difficult to hear these microdetails. The knocking at 4:10/4:11 nearly gave me a heart attack...
 
Enough with this rant. I just want to prove to you all what I'm hearing is true.

 

[Bill-P]

I have to strongly disagree with your analysis Bill P. Saying that "I do not agree that the Alpha Dog is better than the DT880 at anything." Is going to make people think that the DT880 is the last stop on the road to transparency or that the Alpha Dog doesn't technically do things better than the DT880(which you'd have to be deaf to not hear). For example, if you like EDM or neo-soul anything that takes "control" to another level of bass.
 
Try this song on the DT880 and then try it on the Alpha Dog. The DT880 will wash out.. But don't mislead people Bill, the Alpha Dog is technically superior and has the deeper soundstage (not wider or airier)

 
I did note in that post that the DT880 is definitely not the last stop on the road to transparency.
 
In fact, I'd agree with you that the Alpha Dogs will be more transparent.
 
But the Alpha Dogs are not "airy", or "wide". I'm sure you'd agree.
 
Some music would want that extra soundstage that the DT880 offers, like... say, classical or orchestra. Also some live rock recordings (I have Eagles' Hell Freezes Over and Eric Clapton's Unplugged) would benefit more from the DT880 than the Alpha Dogs IMO.
 
So if the Alpha Dogs are only better on a per case basis, I don't think it is overall better than the DT880. The DT880 will still be good for certain things.
 
Also the street price difference ($250-$300 for the DT880, and $600 for the Alpha Dogs) kind of makes the DT880 the better deal... especially since you can spare the extra expense for a nice amp.

 

[rovopio]

   
I did note in that post that the DT880 is definitely not the last stop on the road to transparency.
 
In fact, I'd agree with you that the Alpha Dogs will be more transparent.
 
But the Alpha Dogs are not "airy", or "wide". I'm sure you'd agree.
 
Some music would want that extra soundstage that the DT880 offers, like... say, classical or orchestra. Also some live rock recordings (I have Eagles' Hell Freezes Over and Eric Clapton's Unplugged) would benefit more from the DT880 than the Alpha Dogs IMO.
 
So if the Alpha Dogs are only better on a per case basis, I don't think it is overall better than the DT880. The DT880 will still be good for certain things.
 
Also the street price difference ($250-$300 for the DT880, and $600 for the Alpha Dogs) kind of makes the DT880 the better deal... especially since you can spare the extra expense for a nice amp.

 
If open means "well-conveyed spatial information, you can hear the distance between one sound to the next in the whole presentation".
what's the difference between that with soundstage, or instrument separation?
 
On airy, when you said "airy means how much of the environment around that you can hear.".
What do you mean by hearing the environments? can you elaborate it in a simpler way.
explain it like i'm 12, so to speak. That's an english phrase right?
explain it like i'm xx
 
 

 

[Bill-P]

   
If open means "well-conveyed spatial information, you can hear the distance between one sound to the next in the whole presentation".
what's the difference between that with soundstage, or instrument separation?
 
On airy, when you said "airy means how much of the environment around that you can hear.".
What do you mean by hearing the environments? can you elaborate it in a simpler way.
explain it like i'm 12, so to speak. That's an english phrase right?
explain it like i'm xx

 
"Open" can come about as a result of "soundstage". "Soundstage" actually has 3 properties, "depth", "width", "height". Usually, only "depth" and "width" are considered because there are not a lot of recordings that make use of "height" (unless you're watching a movie).
 
"Open" can also come as a result of "instrument separation", which I think is a different concept from "soundstage". "Instrument separation" is more along the line of being able to hear the distinct unique tone or sound of an instrument in the performance. A headphone can have very little soundstage or "openness", but still have great "instrument separation" (Audeze LCD-2 does this).
 
And by "hearing the environment" I meant... if you have a fan running in your room, then you'll hear that fan clear as day.

 

[rovopio]

^
 
i see, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Chris J]

ya sure , just wanted to give a different opinion ^^

At least we can agree that DT880 still a great can for the price

They say that if Shakestoor was alive today he would use Stax headphones with a tube amplifier.
I read it on the Internet so it must be true.
Seriously..........:confused_face_2:

 

[KewlMunky]

To anyone with the velour pads, could you please answer a question for me? I tried asking on amazon, but I received no answers.
 
What is the diameter of the opening on the back side of the pad? I am curious as to if they would be usable as a replacement pad for my ATH-WS99.

 

[Prod]

Just checked the pads that came off a 2003 edition dt880 that I recently acquired from someone off of craigslist (more on that in a sec) and  the diameter of the back side measured 3&15/16 inches (10cm)  with a 1/4 inch lip (.63cm) that runs all the way around the circumference. I replaced them with a stock pair of pads that came off my dt990's and they were exactly the same size when I compared the two sets. 
 
Anyways, being a huge fan of the 990's I've always had an interest in checking out the 880's but never pulled the trigger on a pair. Then this weekend I found a pair of the 2003 edition for a good price and yep, now I'm a proud owner of a slightly vintage pair of dt880's.
 

 

[KewlMunky]

  Just checked the pads that came off a 2003 edition dt880 that I recently acquired from someone off of craigslist (more on that in a sec) and  the diameter of the back side measured 3&15/16 inches (10cm)  with a 1/4 inch lip (.63cm) that runs all the way around the circumference. I replaced them with a stock pair of pads that came off my dt990's and they were exactly the same size when I compared the two sets. 
 
Anyways, being a huge fan of the 990's I've always had an interest in checking out the 880's but never pulled the trigger on a pair. Then this weekend I found a pair of the 2003 edition for a good price and yep, now I'm a proud owner of a slightly vintage pair of dt880's.
 

 
When you say 3 15/16 with a quarter in lip, do you mean inside of the lip is 3 15/16, or does that measurement cover the entire pad?

 

[Prod]

If the 1/4 inch lip was gone entirely, the diameter would still be 3 15/16 on the back. The lip is what actually secures the pad to the head phone.

 

[KewlMunky]

  If the 1/4 inch lip was gone entirely, the diameter would still be 3 15/16 on the back. The lip is what actually secures the pad to the head phone.

Thank you. Unfortunately, the pads are just slightly too big for my WS99. I'll just have to stick with the DT250 velours, then.

 

[wahsmoh]

Wow very jealous you managed to find a pair of the old DT880. They are becoming increasingly rare.

 

[wahsmoh]

   
I did note in that post that the DT880 is definitely not the last stop on the road to transparency.
 
In fact, I'd agree with you that the Alpha Dogs will be more transparent.
 
But the Alpha Dogs are not "airy", or "wide". I'm sure you'd agree.
 
Some music would want that extra soundstage that the DT880 offers, like... say, classical or orchestra. Also some live rock recordings (I have Eagles' Hell Freezes Over and Eric Clapton's Unplugged) would benefit more from the DT880 than the Alpha Dogs IMO.
 
So if the Alpha Dogs are only better on a per case basis, I don't think it is overall better than the DT880. The DT880 will still be good for certain things.
 
Also the street price difference ($250-$300 for the DT880, and $600 for the Alpha Dogs) kind of makes the DT880 the better deal... especially since you can spare the extra expense for a nice amp.

I agree with you though Bill that at $250-300 the DT880 is the more well-rounded headphone especially for people who want their first taste of what headphones have to offer. You are right though that the DT880 is more suitable for certain types of music, especially classical and airy vocals like Bjork or Cocteau Twins.
 
Spending $600 is quite a bit of money for a new Head-fier. That would take the AD's out of the picture for most people. Getting the DT880 + a DAC/amp combo is something I lived with for nearly two years and still haven't wanted to sell my DT880s.