[rovopio]

How's the alpha dog compare to the 880? I know it's a lot smoother but slower.

 
specifically, what are you looking to compare between the two?

 

[Argyris]

I think the fact that we're even talking about the SR-009 and the DT880 in the same sentence speaks volumes for the value offered by the latter, if nothing else. For the usual $250-$300 retail price, to come anywhere near a ~$5,000 headphone is saying something. I've always wanted to try the SR-009 (hopefully a meet will pop up somewhere near me). I've read the "colorless" description of it quite a few places, and that sounds right up my street.
 
In order to be an improvement over the DT880 for me, the SR-009 would have to keep the same wide frequency coverage and the same airiness, but dial back the upper mids/lower treble transition just a little bit, and maybe drop the 8 kHz spike a little. A bit more deep bass extension might be nice as well. It would also have to be in the same comfort ballpark. I don't mind a bit of extra weight or clamp, since the DT880 is unusually lightweight and light-clamping for a full-sized headphone, but I feel that a headphone that can't be worn for marathon sessions without becoming bothersome, no matter how good it sounds, would be a distinct step back in terms of usability.

 

[wahsmoh]

How's the alpha dog compare to the 880? I know it's a lot smoother but slower.

I would say the Alpha Dog is better across the board except airiness and openness(duh). The Alpha Dog wins in tonality, musicality, bass slam, natural mid range, treble is less emphasized but more neutral(not as shimmery as the DT880 or as separated from the rest of the sound). The Alpha Dog brings you 10% closer than the DT880 to hearing the music as realistically as it should sound. I would say the SR-009 adds that extra 5% to the Alpha Dog at the cost of an arm and a leg and loss of isolation of a closed headphone/decreased bass response. It's a tradeoff that makes the Alpha Dog look like an absolute steal at $600
 
EDIT: Both the DT880 and Alpha Dog are insane values at their respective prices. At $600 I would say the Alpha Dog is realistically 10% better than the DT880 but incremental values make huge differences considering the DT880 does little wrong, it just lacks what I call "microdetails" that get lost in passages where transient response and lower distortion reign supreme. Best way to figure out what I mean is to pick up any of the 3 popular mid-fi headphones (HD650/600, Q7xx, DT880) and then compare to the planar/electrostat designs in the upper mid-fi to summit-fi category. There is no way any of the mid-fi dynamic designs can compete with planars and electrostats.. that is the conclusion I came to regardless of pairing and synergy. Dynamic designs have inherent disadvantages (even the HD800)

 

[Allucid]

How's the alpha dog compare to the 880? I know it's a lot smoother but slower.

I would say the Alpha Dog is better across the board except airiness and openness(duh). The Alpha Dog wins in tonality, musicality, bass slam, natural mid range, treble is less emphasized but more neutral(not as shimmery as the DT880 or as separated from the rest of the sound). The Alpha Dog brings you 10% closer than the DT880 to hearing the music as realistically as it should sound. I would say the SR-009 adds that extra 5% to the Alpha Dog at the cost of an arm and a leg and loss of isolation of a closed headphone/decreased bass response. It's a tradeoff that makes the Alpha Dog look like an absolute steal at $600

EDIT: Both the DT880 and Alpha Dog are insane values at their respective prices. At $600 I would say the Alpha Dog is realistically 10% better than the DT880 but incremental values make huge differences considering the DT880 does little wrong, it just lacks what I call "microdetails" that get lost in passages where transient response and lower distortion reign supreme. Best way to figure out what I mean is to pick up any of the 3 popular mid-fi headphones (HD650/600, Q7xx, DT880) and then compare to the planar/electrostat designs in the upper mid-fi to summit-fi category. There is no way any of the mid-fi dynamic designs can compete with planars and electrostats.. that is the conclusion I came to regardless of pairing and synergy. Dynamic designs have inherent disadvantages (even the HD800)

I was going to get a hifiman planar, but I love the sound of the DT880.

 

[wahsmoh]

I was going to get a hifiman planar, but I love the sound of the DT880.

For the price of the DT880 you're fine sticking with it until you save up for something above $500, think Alpha Dog, SR-007 MKII, HE-400i, HE-560i(I have heard manufacturing differences, I wouldn't buy till I try), LCD2F(sacrifice comfort), EL-8, ZMFxVibro, HE-1000, LCD-3F. Your next headphone audition should be a planar or electrostat unless you are the kind of person who hears something and immediately wants to buy it best to save your wallet before it's to late and enjoy that DT880. The reason I still have my DT880 is because it's a very comfortable headphone that is good for rock music, reggae, ambient music, electropop, dreampop, neosoul, classical music. Just about anything that is enhanced by the airiness and very wide soundstage of the DT880. Also Beyer still makes their DT-line in Germany while AKG (bought out by Harmon Kardon) has moved factories to China. I highly doubt Beyer has any plans to outsource their production since they are a family-owned company but if they are bought out that would surely be the case as is with some of AKG's headphones.
 
Below is a link to a comparison of the TOTL headphones. While I don't agree with all of Piskor's analysis I think his comments on the Alpha Dog are pretty spot on. It's an underestimated headphone that doesn't get appreciated until compared with the big boys.
http://headfonics.com/2014/08/12-flagship-headphones-compared-the-totl-guide/12/

 

[Chris J]

I would say the Alpha Dog is better across the board except airiness and openness(duh). The Alpha Dog wins in tonality, musicality, bass slam, natural mid range, treble is less emphasized but more neutral(not as shimmery as the DT880 or as separated from the rest of the sound). The Alpha Dog brings you 10% closer than the DT880 to hearing the music as realistically as it should sound. I would say the SR-009 adds that extra 5% to the Alpha Dog at the cost of an arm and a leg and loss of isolation of a closed headphone/decreased bass response. It's a tradeoff that makes the Alpha Dog look like an absolute steal at $600

EDIT: Both the DT880 and Alpha Dog are insane values at their respective prices. At $600 I would say the Alpha Dog is realistically 10% better than the DT880 but incremental values make huge differences considering the DT880 does little wrong, it just lacks what I call "microdetails" that get lost in passages where transient response and lower distortion reign supreme. Best way to figure out what I mean is to pick up any of the 3 popular mid-fi headphones (HD650/600, Q7xx, DT880) and then compare to the planar/electrostat designs in the upper mid-fi to summit-fi category. There is no way any of the mid-fi dynamic designs can compete with planars and electrostats.. that is the conclusion I came to regardless of pairing and synergy. Dynamic designs have inherent disadvantages (even the HD800)

Ture, the DT880 cannot compete with even the entry level Stax like the SRS-2170.
Even the entry level Stax beats the DT880 in transparency, realism and transient response.

 

[johthor]

No need to apologize for any "rant".  This post should be required reading for a lot of people.  In particular people that want to make fundamental differences in the way a headphone sounds by changing upstream components should commit the post to memory.  Posts like this are what make Headfi such a valuable resource to the community.  Thank you Argyris.

 

[johthor]

  No need to apologize for any "rant".  This post should be required reading for a lot of people.  In particular people that want to make fundamental differences in the way a headphone sounds by changing upstream components should commit the post to memory.  Posts like this are what make Headfi such a valuable resource to the community.  Thank you Argyris.

My apologies I meant this as a reply to post #8573

 

[HaVoC-28]

Best way to figure out what I mean is to pick up any of the 3 popular mid-fi headphones (HD650/600, Q7xx, DT880) and then compare to the planar/electrostat designs in the upper mid-fi to summit-fi category. There is no way any of the mid-fi dynamic designs can compete with planars and electrostats.. that is the conclusion I came to regardless of pairing and synergy. Dynamic designs have inherent disadvantages (even the HD800)

 
 
I compared "mid fi" dynamics and an electrostat and my thoughts on the matter are different ,  yeah Electrostats sound great , but not something from another world . In fact i prefered my HD600 to SR-507 ... yeah the STAX had some "technical refinements" , but i really didn't care about , HD600 was more enjoyable to me .
 
(Didn't compared to my DT-880 cause at the time i loaned it to a friend for a month and only had the HD600)
 
 
Also the Confort on SR-507 was not great at all ) I tryed to get used to it , but after 3 weeks , i resigned , yeah they sound good and i could have kept it for complementary purpose , but no ... after 30 min i was to distracted to listen music correctly ).
 
So more happy with "mid fi Dynamics" , rather than Electrostat).
 
 

Ture, the DT880 cannot compete with even the entry level Stax like the SRS-2170.
Even the entry level Stax beats the DT880 in transparency, realism and transient response.

 
Damn i had a stax and didn't kept it , but i still own a DT-880/HD600

 
And i didn't miss my gone SR-507 at all

 
 
@ Both , Not every one is sensible to the "refinements , magic"  (or whatever you want to call it ) from electrostats or planar ...

 

[Chris J]

I compared "mid fi" dynamics and an electrostat and my thoughts on the matter are different ,  yeah Electrostats sound great , but not something from another world . In fact i prefered my HD600 to SR-507 ... yeah the STAX had some "technical refinements" , but i really didn't care about , HD600 was more enjoyable to me .

(Didn't compared to my DT-880 cause at the time i loaned it to a friend for a month and only had the HD600)


Also the Confort on SR-507 was not great at all ) I tryed to get used to it , but after 3 weeks , i resigned , yeah they sound good and i could have kept it for complementary purpose , but no ... after 30 min i was to distracted to listen music correctly ).

So more happy with "mid fi Dynamics" , rather than Electrostat).



Damn i had a stax and didn't kept it , but i still own a DT-880/HD600

And i didn't miss my gone SR-507 at all


@ Both , Not every one is sensible to the "refinements , magic"  (or whatever you want to call it ) from electrostats or planar ...

You ask 5 Head Fi-ers, you'll get 5 different opinions.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much"
Wilhelm Shakestoor

 

[pp312]

  No need to apologize for any "rant".  This post should be required reading for a lot of people.  In particular people that want to make fundamental differences in the way a headphone sounds by changing upstream components should commit the post to memory.  Posts like this are what make Headfi such a valuable resource to the community.  Thank you Argyris.

 
 
Yes, I'd like to second that. Argyris is one of those rare posters who can manage prolonged bouts of sanity, and we're all the better for it. Whenever I think Head-Fi is becoming a pool of pap, Argyris reminds me that it's still worth coming here. He's also one of the posters I would most like to meet in the flesh, as wild a fantasy as that may be.   

 

[HaVoC-28]

You ask 5 Head Fi-ers, you'll get 5 different opinions.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much"
Wilhelm Shakestoor

 
ya sure , just wanted to give a different opinion ^^
 
At least we can agree that DT880 still a great can for the price

 

[Bill-P]

Whoa, there...
 
Not sure how the discussion turned into DT880 vs Alpha Dogs vs SR-009, but... IMO...
 
DT880 is not inferior to Alpha Dogs. I like the sound of the Alpha Dogs, but I do not agree that the Alpha Dogs is better than DT880 at anything. Alpha Dogs is a very good pair of closed headphone, but soundstage, openness, and transparency go to the DT880 easily. If not, then there is something weird in your upstream gears that is holding the DT880 back.
 
SR-009 should not even be mentioned in the same breath as either headphone, because it's in a different class of technicality altogether. As far as frequency response goes, the SR-009 is a midrange-focused headphone with some bass, and actually very little lower treble, with most of its energy focused into higher treble range above 10KHz. It is a transparent headphone in its presentation, but it is very far from "neutral" or even "extended frequency response". It's just a very "clean" headphone. Something like the HD800 or LCD-2 is far more neutral.
 
As far as the effect of upstream gears go, I'd say... it's kinda not a lot for lower-end headphones, but once you have a highly transparent headphone like the SR-009, then every little bit would make quite a bit of difference. This makes sense because in the grand scheme of things, gears are designed differently. Measurements and specs show the grand sum of something, but never the actual way that it works. Would you say: 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 and 2 + 3 = 5 are absolute equality? Nope. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 requires 4 operations before reaching the end, whereas 2 + 3 requires only 1. Just that alone would make up for a difference.
 
Whether your gears can "show" that difference is another matter altogether, but... I'd say, the DT880 with the right amp should be able to do just that. It's just that too many people try to chase after an amp that "tames" the treble... that they kind of forget about getting an amp that can make good use of the technicality of the DT880. And this ties back to what I said before: I do not think the DT880 is inferior to Alpha Dogs. I love the Alpha Dogs... Dan let me audition a pre-production prototype a long while ago, and I even wrote a raving review about it. But... it's at most as good as a DT880 with the right amplification, and not better. DT880 600 Ohm would definitely be better for sure. I guess you can argue that the Alpha Dogs being easier to drive also contributes to this, but... honestly, I don't think that makes it "better".
 
A friend of mine liked the DT880 600 so much that he purchased mine. Since I have quite a few higher-tier headphones now, I let it go... otherwise I would have kept the DT880 around, as it is still an excellent headphone. Not that much behind the HE-560 when both are driven out of the same amp that can best exploit their sound, IMO. In fact, a friend of mine flat out preferred the DT880 600 driven out of my DIY amp over the HE-560...

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Whoa, there...

Not sure how the discussion turned into DT880 vs Alpha Dogs vs SR-009, but... IMO...

DT880 is not inferior to Alpha Dogs. I like the sound of the Alpha Dogs, but I do not agree that the Alpha Dogs is better than DT880 at anything. Alpha Dogs is a very good pair of closed headphone, but soundstage, openness, and transparency go to the DT880 easily. If not, then there is something weird in your upstream gears that is holding the DT880 back.

SR-009 should not even be mentioned in the same breath as either headphone, because it's in a different class of technicality altogether. As far as frequency response goes, the SR-009 is a midrange-focused headphone with some bass, and actually very little lower treble, with most of its energy focused into higher treble range above 10KHz. It is a transparent headphone in its presentation, but it is very far from "neutral" or even "extended frequency response". It's just a very "clean" headphone. Something like the HD800 or LCD-2 is far more neutral.

As far as the effect of upstream gears go, I'd say... it's kinda not a lot for lower-end headphones, but once you have a highly transparent headphone like the SR-009, then every little bit would make quite a bit of difference. This makes sense because in the grand scheme of things, gears are designed differently. Measurements and specs show the grand sum of something, but never the actual way that it works. Would you say: 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 and 2 + 3 = 5 are absolute equality? Nope. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 requires 4 operations before reaching the end, whereas 2 + 3 requires only 1. Just that alone would make up for a difference.

Whether your gears can "show" that difference is another matter altogether, but... I'd say, the DT880 with the right amp should be able to do just that. It's just that too many people try to chase after an amp that "tames" the treble... that they kind of forget about getting an amp that can make good use of the technicality of the DT880. And this ties back to what I said before: I do not think the DT880 is inferior to Alpha Dogs. I love the Alpha Dogs... Dan let me audition a pre-production prototype a long while ago, and I even wrote a raving review about it. But... it's at most as good as a DT880 with the right amplification, and not better. DT880 600 Ohm would definitely be better for sure. I guess you can argue that the Alpha Dogs being easier to drive also contributes to this, but... honestly, I don't think that makes it "better".

A friend of mine liked the DT880 600 so much that he purchased mine. Since I have quite a few higher-tier headphones now, I let it go... otherwise I would have kept the DT880 around, as it is still an excellent headphone. Not that much behind the HE-560 when both are driven out of the same amp that can best exploit their sound, IMO. In fact, a friend of mine flat out preferred the DT880 600 driven out of my DIY amp over the HE-560...

Thank you for this post. Other than your DIY amp, what are some amps you think would do the DT 880 600 justice. I read a lot about tube amps, but I feel you might have opinions on solid state setups for this headphone.

 

[rovopio]

  Whoa, there...
 
Not sure how the discussion turned into DT880 vs Alpha Dogs vs SR-009, but... IMO...
 
DT880 is not inferior to Alpha Dogs. I like the sound of the Alpha Dogs, but I do not agree that the Alpha Dogs is better than DT880 at anything. Alpha Dogs is a very good pair of closed headphone, but soundstage, openness, and transparency go to the DT880 easily. If not, then there is something weird in your upstream gears that is holding the DT880 back.
 
SR-009 should not even be mentioned in the same breath as either headphone, because it's in a different class of technicality altogether. As far as frequency response goes, the SR-009 is a midrange-focused headphone with some bass, and actually very little lower treble, with most of its energy focused into higher treble range above 10KHz. It is a transparent headphone in its presentation, but it is very far from "neutral" or even "extended frequency response". It's just a very "clean" headphone. Something like the HD800 or LCD-2 is far more neutral.
 
As far as the effect of upstream gears go, I'd say... it's kinda not a lot for lower-end headphones, but once you have a highly transparent headphone like the SR-009, then every little bit would make quite a bit of difference. This makes sense because in the grand scheme of things, gears are designed differently. Measurements and specs show the grand sum of something, but never the actual way that it works. Would you say: 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 and 2 + 3 = 5 are absolute equality? Nope. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 requires 4 operations before reaching the end, whereas 2 + 3 requires only 1. Just that alone would make up for a difference.
 
Whether your gears can "show" that difference is another matter altogether, but... I'd say, the DT880 with the right amp should be able to do just that. It's just that too many people try to chase after an amp that "tames" the treble... that they kind of forget about getting an amp that can make good use of the technicality of the DT880. And this ties back to what I said before: I do not think the DT880 is inferior to Alpha Dogs. I love the Alpha Dogs... Dan let me audition a pre-production prototype a long while ago, and I even wrote a raving review about it. But... it's at most as good as a DT880 with the right amplification, and not better. DT880 600 Ohm would definitely be better for sure. I guess you can argue that the Alpha Dogs being easier to drive also contributes to this, but... honestly, I don't think that makes it "better".
 
A friend of mine liked the DT880 600 so much that he purchased mine. Since I have quite a few higher-tier headphones now, I let it go... otherwise I would have kept the DT880 around, as it is still an excellent headphone. Not that much behind the HE-560 when both are driven out of the same amp that can best exploit their sound, IMO. In fact, a friend of mine flat out preferred the DT880 600 driven out of my DIY amp over the HE-560...

 
can i ask what does technicality means?
audio dealers where i live likes to use that word too. i don't understand what it means, and when i asked them, they can't actually explain it in a clear way.
Stereophile website doesn't have the description for "technicality" either.
 
Also, can you give examples of what amps can make dt880 as good as alpha dogs?
 
Also, what do you mean by openness? is that any different than airy?
 
sorry not a native speaker... and still tring to learn the rope here...