[kman1211]

Besides comfort and efficiency, nope

Do you have esoteric knowledge of headphone design/engineering? If not please refrain from making any such statements.

 

[Achlys]

Do you have esoteric knowledge of headphone design/engineering? If not please refrain from making any such statements.

Do you need esoteric knowledge to determine that an OLED display has a higher contrast ratio than a single layer LCD? Do you need esoteric knowledge to determine which car has a faster 0-60 time?

As you can see, your argument is heavily flawed. I have access to the measurements that count.

 

[kman1211]

Do you need esoteric knowledge to determine that an OLED display has a higher contrast ratio than a single layer LCD? Do you need esoteric knowledge to determine which car has a faster 0-60 time?

As you can see, your argument is heavily flawed. I have access to the measurements that count.

You’re assuming those are the only things that count. You’re argument is just as flawed. What about the CSD waterfall plots? What about decay? What about resonances (major issue for some headphones)? What about transient response? And numerous other things, various things can cause very similarly measuring headphones to sound quite different not just THD, FR response, efficiency, fit, and psychological effects.

 

[Opalius]

@Opalius I like midrange too much to have ever been interested in Beyerdynamic's DT 770 and DT 990. Is it the PRO version or the Edition. I'm curious about impedance these days 250/600Ω ? Some say the treble on these is rather sharp.

I have only tried the “Edition” versions.

The short answer is, that both the 250 ohm and 600 ohm are sharp, or “ very bright” – BUT the 600 ohm is A LOT smoother in the highs, when used with a amp that has high output impedance of 80 or 100 ohm.

By smoother, think better or more extended highs, and not so “jagged”. That 8k peak is still there, and you hear it in the symbols, - but where on the 250 ohm, the sound just “drops off” it “lingers” longer in the background with the 600 ohm, giving a “airy” sense.

I have tested this with both a cheap Samson s-amp 4-channel, and the A20 form Beye.

Both are equal sibilant, but the AKG702 is more sibilant. The song I used to listen for sibilants was “Katie Melua” with “rolling uphill”. - just to compare.


In short, I cannot recommend the DT880 to be used with a low impedance Amp, even it is has a high voltage output.

The only thing to note about the Samson s-amp, is that it needs to warm up for 30 sec or so, other then that, no real difference between it and the A20, when using it at “normal” to loud ( 100 db) listening levels, with the DT880, 600 ohm.

Hope that gives some insight.

 

[Achlys]

What about the CSD waterfall plots? What about decay? What about resonances (major issue for some headphones)? What about transient response?

CSD is useless. Perfectly smooth FR = smooth CSD.
Transient response is also useless because headphones are minimum phase devices.
Also, you can see STAX "speed" in FR. It's called perfect bass extension.

I have only tried the “Edition” versions.

The short answer is, that both the 250 ohm and 600 ohm are sharp, or “ very bright” – BUT the 600 ohm is A LOT smoother in the highs, when used with a amp that has high output impedance of 80 or 100 ohm.

By smoother, think better or more extended highs, and not so “jagged”. That 8k peak is still there, and you hear it in the symbols, - but where on the 250 ohm, the sound just “drops off” it “lingers” longer in the background with the 600 ohm, giving a “airy” sense.

I have tested this with both a cheap Samson s-amp 4-channel, and the A20 form Beye.

Both are equal sibilant, but the AKG702 is more sibilant. The song I used to listen for sibilants was “Katie Melua” with “rolling uphill”. - just to compare.


In short, I cannot recommend the DT880 to be used with a low impedance Amp, even it is has a high voltage output.

The only thing to note about the Samson s-amp, is that it needs to warm up for 30 sec or so, other then that, no real difference between it and the A20, when using it at “normal” to loud ( 100 db) listening levels, with the DT880, 600 ohm.

Hope that gives some insight.

The DT880 600 Ohm does not audibly change from 100 ohm output impedance

 

[Opalius]

The DT880 600 Ohm does not audibly change from 100 ohm output impedance

I am sorry you feel that way, but that graf simply does not tale the entire story. If you don't believe me, try looking up on YouTube. There is a video with one guy who uses the old S-amp and does a comparison with the DT880, 600 ohm. Yes his video is subjective, and he talks alot about bass. But what can I say. I did not believe it until I tried it my self.

Also...

In general, measurements from frequency response of more then 10k are somewhat sketchy. They just give a general guide. I know most music is found between 100 and 10k, that that frequency range of 10k up til 20 really gives "air".

In short, - take a trip to a hifi store, and simply try some solid state amps, one high impedance and one low. You may just be surprised.

And no, I am not saying price matters when it comes to amps. I'm just saying that graphs and measurements of headphones don't give the entire story. There also is a reason why you take like 10 measurements minimum, and so forth...

 

[jonathan c]

As you can see, your argument is heavily flawed. I have access to the measurements that count.

On Mount Olympus?

 

[kman1211]

I am sorry you feel that way, but that graf simply does not tale the entire story. If you don't believe me, try looking up on YouTube. There is a video with one guy who uses the old S-amp and does a comparison with the DT880, 600 ohm. Yes his video is subjective, and he talks alot about bass. But what can I say. I did not believe it until I tried it my self.

Also...

In general, measurements from frequency response of more then 10k are somewhat sketchy. They just give a general guide. I know most music is found between 100 and 10k, that that frequency range of 10k up til 20 really gives "air".

In short, - take a trip to a hifi store, and simply try some solid state amps, one high impedance and one low. You may just be surprised.

And no, I am not saying price matters when it comes to amps. I'm just saying that graphs and measurements of headphones don't give the entire story. There also is a reason why you take like 10 measurements minimum, and so forth...

You can also try one of the Garage1217 amps to test out the difference; you can swap output impedance near instantly.

 

[jonathan c]

The thing is, you don't need to try headphones if you learn how to read frequency response and THD.

From a different perspective: When you drive, which matters more? Looking at the road or looking at the dashboard meters?

Sorry I have a basic level of education, I guess?

That is not it…just too rigid an adherence to one perspective…

CSD is useless. Perfectly smooth FR = smooth CSD.
Transient response is also useless because headphones are minimum phase devices.
Also, you can see STAX "speed" in FR. It's called perfect bass extension.

….CSD is useless…transient response is useless…music is useless?…

 

[TrollDragon]

That's right, your a friend of his... Wasn't he banned from ASR 2 or 3 times and is now permanently banned.

 

[Achlys]

I am sorry you feel that way, but that graf simply does not tale the entire story. If you don't believe me, try looking up on YouTube. There is a video with one guy who uses the old S-amp and does a comparison with the DT880, 600 ohm. Yes his video is subjective, and he talks alot about bass. But what can I say. I did not believe it until I tried it my self.

Also...

In general, measurements from frequency response of more then 10k are somewhat sketchy. They just give a general guide. I know most music is found between 100 and 10k, that that frequency range of 10k up til 20 really gives "air".

In short, - take a trip to a hifi store, and simply try some solid state amps, one high impedance and one low. You may just be surprised.

And no, I am not saying price matters when it comes to amps. I'm just saying that graphs and measurements of headphones don't give the entire story. There also is a reason why you take like 10 measurements minimum, and so forth...

you guys should blind test together

 

[jonathan c]

Besides comfort and efficiency, nope

………

 

[driftingbunnies]

https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/04/headphone-impedance-demystified/

 

[Achlys]

This graph is BS btw. Tyll selected the channel with bad matching in his 32 ohm sample for this. The correct channel looks the same as the 600 ohm.

 

[Sefelt103]

That 8k peak is still there, and you hear it in the symbols, - but where on the 250 ohm, the sound just “drops off” it “lingers” longer in the background with the 600 ohm, giving a “airy” sense.

Beyerdynamic seems fond of their "Mt Beyer" 8kHz peak. It's on mine. I've been looking at AKG's K702 because it's relatively inexpensive here in Europa but other than curiosity (no two headphones ever seem to have identical sound signatures) it seemed a bit too similar to the DT 880.

In short, I cannot recommend the DT880 to be used with a low impedance Amp, even it is has a high voltage output.

I've only ever used the DT 880 Premium Edition 600Ω with low impedance solid state amplifiers. My Centrance Hifi M8 has adjustable impedance but I usually keep it on the lowest setting of 1Ω rather than 2Ω or 10Ω as I thought this would give a more accurate sound. Perhaps my critical evaluation of the DT 880 would not be so with different amplification. Perhaps its designers thought it would most likely be connected to warm and soothing amplification rather than 'wires with gain' type of amplification or maybe not.

The only thing to note about the Samson s-amp, is that it needs to warm up for 30 sec or so, other then that, no real difference between it and the A20, when using it at “normal” to loud ( 100 db) listening levels, with the DT880, 600 ohm.

A true bargain then compared to the A20 (or the variable output impedance 0/100Ω A2).