The Audio Lounge
Apr 16, 2019 at 2:26 AM Post #14,266 of 36,075
Just my 0.02c (or p, in good old Queens Shilling) on the IMR stuff: if the Zenith driver is already being used elsewhere on much cheaper gear, then that is a good advertisement for how much tuning can affect the quality of IEM implementation.

The Zenith can genuinely hang in a higher price bracket in terms of both technicality and overall tuning for me - given the current MSRP on a lot of midfi gear, I can see why the R1Z is priced like it is. The texture and detail you can get in the bass and treble is pretty special, so whatever is going on with the tuning filters and porting, it's definitely working. If the $100 chifi driver setups provide similar sonics in the cheaper models, then they will be an absolute no brainer in terms of price to performance - sadly not heard any of them so can't comment there (yet!).

That is obviously outside of people's experience/opinion of IMR, and whether they want to take a chance on their particular business model or the people behind it. As has been mentioned, they have been hitting all the required service markers at the moment, so it's down to individuals to decide whether they are confident and/or comfortable buying their gear. For some, that will be a solid no, and that's as it should be.

Might jump on the R2, as I am loving the R1Z, but have far too many IEMs already, so it's not like I need another one... :wink:
Have ordered the R1 Zenith and it is in the hands of the postal gods now... and already thinking about my next purchase... why do you think the R2 is worthwhile? Trying to convince myself, frankly...
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 2:36 AM Post #14,267 of 36,075
He's delivered pretty quickly on all IMR products... However, if you look at the hardware he plunks inside the R1's, zeniths and the upcoming R2's, you're clearly giving him a lot more than he's giving you. It's been proven that he used drivers from chifi setups ranging from 50 USD to 100 USD, his shells are nothing to write home about and his cables are pretty basic. All in all, the R1's and zeniths probably had a 300-400% markup compared on building costs.
Hmmm. Using component cost estimates to derive what you think a manufacturer should charge is a dicey proposition... I would think it is also a function of value as perceived by the buyer... if the drivers are from other IEMs, how does the sound compare? Anyone AB the IMR sets with their corresponding doppelgänger?

Not defending anyone. I don’t want to get into history - recent or ancient. I’m a “virgin” in all this, never having dealt with Trinity, or IMR (at least not until I recently ordered the R1 Zenith). Just want to know how their stuff sounds, and if there really is a cheaper twin.

As to component costs... a cute apocryphal story... Years ago a mainframe was brought online. The key program it was running was programmed in FORTRAN. Things went smoothly, and eventually the lead programmer retired. Then, some time later, a critical bug was found. No one still working could even understand FORTRAN, much less the program, so they asked the lead programmer if he would come back on a consulting basis and fix the problem. He agreed, and solved the issue in a day. The client was astonished then to receive a $1Million bill. When asked how a day’s work could translate into $1M, the programmer smiled and said “The $1M wasn’t for my time. It was for my knowledge.”
 
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Apr 16, 2019 at 2:45 AM Post #14,268 of 36,075
I couldn't resist and purchased the R2 after I purchased the R1Z yesterday..... :ksc75smile: I make myself laugh. After all the anti-Bob discussion yesterday and the PTSD that all you guys exhibited.... What the h-e-double-hocky-sticks. This Bob guy is a master manipulator.

By the way the R2 looks really cool.

Bob must have a reality distortion field....

I am virtually in the same boat... just bought the Zenith (on its way) and thinking about the R2... why should we want the R2? Has anyone actually heard it and reviewed it?
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 2:50 AM Post #14,269 of 36,075
To give you a taste of what an IMR R1 is, here it is. It's a Dynamic Driver in the back, a Ceramic driver in the front. Two wires, a 2 pin connector and a manual wheel. What is the Zenith? a 1 mm larger driver in the back, probably same driver in the front, a twist pin instead of a mechanical wheel... The shell has space for at least 3-4 mm increase on the DD, he just has to change that driver, the face plate for the Open Back feature with something different, sells it as a new device with little production cost increase. The R2 will basically be the same thing: Back grill screwed on, bigger dynamic driver, same ceramic driver, new cable. Smart business model? I think so.

Smart? Probably - modular design / future proof design is quite the right way to develop products!

The real question - does it sound good for the money when compared to alternatives?
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 3:02 AM Post #14,270 of 36,075
Don't get me wrong: They do sound good... The R1's were really impressive first time I heard them. You will probably love them too... I'm just saying his purpose with these is to make money and an easy product line with little effort. Building these is super simple and probably not all that costly. But if they sound good in your ears after and you're content with what you paid for them? That's all that really matters, now does it. :)
Would it be better if instead of “an easy product line with little effort. Building these is super simple and probably not all that costly” it was a hard to make and costly product that sounded the same?

I know I am coming across as defending something, and really I am not. Since I carry no past baggage in any of this I am simply trying to separate the emotion of past wrongs from the facts of present products - in this case the wheat from the chaff.
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 3:15 AM Post #14,271 of 36,075
I am virtually in the same boat... just bought the Zenith (on its way) and thinking about the R2... why should we want the R2? Has anyone actually heard it and reviewed it?

As far as anyone is aware, the R2 Aten is a limited edition model - presumably using a bit of the tech that will be rolled out in the Elah flagship later this year. As such, if it's a small batch run (300 units on sale), I don't think Bob will be sending review units out - by the time the reviews are up, the preorder will most likely be close to full.

So, the only way to find out what they sound like will be to wait for the early orders to go out and see if there are any left for sale if you like the feedback.
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 5:04 AM Post #14,272 of 36,075
Well, started on my routine Sunday morning, coffee and vinyl, when after a few minutes my Sony STR-AV1020 receiver starts in on protection relay clicking and getting hot. First time I had this issue. Thought it might be a bad connector or speaker wire (which are all new) but removed everything and the beast is still clicking and popping. Sounds like something internal like a short or some bad solder connectors on the main board or something with the power supply. Faint smell of insulation cooking. Afraid to risk anything connected to it in case it explodes or something.

I am sad as I have had since this 1983 and has been a trooper all that time. It's not worth the cost or the time to diagnose and fix. I guess I'm in the market for something new. Sad day when vintage electronics give up their ghost. At least we had some good times over the last 36 years.

I love the vintage stuff and had my eye on some older Carver gear but from reading about them, looks like similar things happen after many years and that stuff can get stupid expensive to fix.

Anyone particularly happy with their integrated receiver? Tell me about it...looking for something new. Not even sure of price range, I guess $500-1000? It's been a long time since I went shopping for this gear.
This is dreadful news, even worse than the above :wink: anyways, check out this guy
https://ebay.co.uk/usr/hifihangaruk
This guy deals in vintage HiFi and really knows his onions and could possibly tell you if it’s worth the repair or could recommend a similar substitute.
He has some quality gear through his doors, not sure if he ships abroad or not. This is the guy I got my Talk Electronics Tornado/Hurricane 4 from and will not be changing this set up ever.
He has a guy running tests/repairs on all his gear and extremely knowledgable in all things vintage HiFi.
Now that I have had dealings with this guy I would just go to him if I wanted something of this nature and I promise you this is no shilling.
I also spoke to Kevin Edwards of Edwards Audio/Talk Electronics about my amps and he reassured me that there is nothing he can’t fix in the amps I have. It’s so refreshing to be able to call the company that made my amps and speak directly to guy that owns the company and built my amps. Now that’s customer service!!!
The price range your looking at, you could afford to pick up the Tornado/Hurricane 2, this I had before the 4 and is now in my sons room rigged up to a pair of old Ruark Epilogue speakers and also a really old pair of Hitachi HS-335s for a bit more oomph when required lol
Maybe even try the newer Edwards Audio line of intergrated amps, might be something there suitable for your needs and price range.
My sympathies and condolences at this most distressing time and hope you get through it in one piece :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Just spotted this-
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/113717674827
 
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Apr 16, 2019 at 6:23 AM Post #14,273 of 36,075
Thanks for the condolences sent. I have, after talking with the wife, decided to get something cheap for now to hold me over until I can really invest in something nice. I just purchased a Yamaha Integrated amp for a decent low cost. Right now I need to just get something to play. It got good reviews and has ok power. Expecting it tomorrow. We'll see how long it takes before I outgrow it. My vision is to get some really nice speakers and a great integrated amp in the future. I may have to put some future headphones purchases aside in favor of this.

At least I have the Kanas Pro to play around with and I just got a notice from MD that my DMG is shipping...
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 6:49 AM Post #14,274 of 36,075
Thanks for the condolences sent. I have, after talking with the wife, decided to get something cheap for now to hold me over until I can really invest in something nice. I just purchased a Yamaha Integrated amp for a decent low cost. Right now I need to just get something to play. It got good reviews and has ok power. Expecting it tomorrow. We'll see how long it takes before I outgrow it. My vision is to get some really nice speakers and a great integrated amp in the future. I may have to put some future headphones purchases aside in favor of this.

At least I have the Kanas Pro to play around with and I just got a notice from MD that my DMG is shipping...
Think I’ve been spoilt with my Talk Electronics pre/power amps, either the 2 or the 4 but I could never go back to the intergrated amp. We did some A/B testing with various amps and the pre/power set up stole the show every time. Not saying intergrated aren’t any good, just myself and a few friends all agreed on which were better at the time and on what we had to test with. If you’ve got the Yammy coming, then time is on your hands to pick and choose your ideal future amp/amps.
Really happy for you in your new amp arrival tomorrow, hope the neighbors enjoy it as much as you do yourself :L3000::L3000::L3000:
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 7:18 AM Post #14,275 of 36,075
Guys, I should have the Kanas Pro also in the next few days and will give my initial thoughts when I can.

I recently got the BGVP DMG, the Tin T2 Pro and the Titan T1, and I will fling a few comparative words together in a half coherent, half random way..........:smile_phones:

I think that we should also mention the tips that we have tried and what DAP, etc. to try to be more informative.....................

Sorry Light-Man but I was too (not) busy to reply to your post but more likely just recovering from the weekend.

Re: The Kanas Pro, BGVP DMG, the Tin T2 Pro and the Titan T1..................

For the moment all I can say for sure (so far), is that the Tin Audio T2 Pro is getting the most head time among my recent purchases.

I am using Flare Audio - Replacement Universal Earfoams - Large (bought on Amazon UK), on all of them during my comparisons. Combined with Hidizs AP100 DAP, Acoustic Research AR-M200 DAP and HaaFee HA8 Bluetooth DAC-Amp.

I find the T2 Pro to be overall more involving with natural tones and timbre and with a nice presence and soundstage.

I doubt that my opinion will change but I will come back on Sunday/Monday with an update for anyone who cares..................
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 7:31 AM Post #14,276 of 36,075
Thanks for the condolences sent. I have, after talking with the wife, decided to get something cheap for now to hold me over until I can really invest in something nice. I just purchased a Yamaha Integrated amp for a decent low cost. Right now I need to just get something to play. It got good reviews and has ok power. Expecting it tomorrow. We'll see how long it takes before I outgrow it. My vision is to get some really nice speakers and a great integrated amp in the future. I may have to put some future headphones purchases aside in favor of this.

At least I have the Kanas Pro to play around with and I just got a notice from MD that my DMG is shipping...

You won’t be hurting too much with the Kanas Pro and DMG, Congrats:beerchug:

@KEV G , not tried any of the Talk/Edwards products outside my little Apprentice phono stage but for $160 it is a sweet unit and tears the old NAD PP2 to shreds:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 7:50 AM Post #14,277 of 36,075
Think I’ve been spoilt with my Talk Electronics pre/power amps, either the 2 or the 4 but I could never go back to the intergrated amp. We did some A/B testing with various amps and the pre/power set up stole the show every time. Not saying intergrated aren’t any good, just myself and a few friends all agreed on which were better at the time and on what we had to test with. If you’ve got the Yammy coming, then time is on your hands to pick and choose your ideal future amp/amps.
Really happy for you in your new amp arrival tomorrow, hope the neighbors enjoy it as much as you do yourself :L3000::L3000::L3000:

Truth be told, I haven't been in the system scene for so long, I have lost track of what's out there and options open to me.I like that I have time to really plan and build a nice system. What I didn't want to do was rush out to get an expensive kit without spending time to really research all my options. Yes, I get the fact that integrated stuff can suffer against separates but as I was doing some quick reads, there seems to be no lack of some really decent integrated amps on the market. Hopefully the stars will align for me and I can get a handle on what I want to do.

Keep the suggestions coming...that's what I really appreciate in this forum, the different perspectives and opinions of people I trust.
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM Post #14,278 of 36,075
Would it be better if instead of “an easy product line with little effort. Building these is super simple and probably not all that costly” it was a hard to make and costly product that sounded the same?

I know I am coming across as defending something, and really I am not. Since I carry no past baggage in any of this I am simply trying to separate the emotion of past wrongs from the facts of present products - in this case the wheat from the chaff.

I won't start this up again beyond this, but here are the answers to your questions:

Yes some people AB'd the R1's with the chifi with similar driver. Yes they sound similar.

Trinity killed itself with complicated, which is why it's smart to do easy/cheap and effective.

You're entitled to consider you're getting your money's worth, it's fine. I was simply stating what I think about the product line. His newer drivers in the Zenith and R2's I haven't really come across in the wild, so it does help in justifying trying them instead of the R1's. The R1's were just there for him to make a quick buck after the Trinity debacle. Will you be satisfied with the Zenith and r2's at their rebate price point? Sure... Is there better at a better price point? Probably. But the sound sig of the piezoelectric isn't really comparable to BA setups and that's what's popular on the market. And to be quite honest, there are so much IEM's to try out there and everyone has their own preference that I find it hard to recommend anything as an alternative.

And comparing Bob's skills to a Fortran programmer is not really a good comparison, I think. :wink: He's not charging for a dead skill, he's just another IEM creator and those are pretty much everywhere. He's just attempting to differenciate himself from the rest. But if ever someone finds his product line nice, copying it won't be too hard and will probably cost less than what he charged.
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 8:23 AM Post #14,279 of 36,075
Would it be better if instead of “an easy product line with little effort. Building these is super simple and probably not all that costly” it was a hard to make and costly product that sounded the same?

I know I am coming across as defending something, and really I am not. Since I carry no past baggage in any of this I am simply trying to separate the emotion of past wrongs from the facts of present products - in this case the wheat from the chaff.

The past baggage gives me hindsight, I'm zero emotional in everything I wrote. I try and be as factual as I can... I never said his business strategy was bad either. So even if you come across as defending, I won't challenge it. But are you really playing devil's advocate or are you trying to convincing yourself it's worth the investment? If that's the case and you got the zeniths on rebate, I'm sure you will be satisfied.
 
Apr 16, 2019 at 10:59 AM Post #14,280 of 36,075
The past baggage gives me hindsight, I'm zero emotional in everything I wrote. I try and be as factual as I can... I never said his business strategy was bad either. So even if you come across as defending, I won't challenge it. But are you really playing devil's advocate or are you trying to convincing yourself it's worth the investment? If that's the case and you got the zeniths on rebate, I'm sure you will be satisfied.

“But are you really playing devil's advocate or are you trying to convincing yourself it's worth the investment? If that's the case and you got the zeniths on rebate, I'm sure you will be satisfied.”

A few pages back I was reading about what some people paid in this hobby... Off the top of my head in 2019 I have purchased (not all arrived) said Zenith, DM6, S8F, TSMR-3 Pro, Kanas Pro, Tin T3, Hidizs MS4, HiBy W5, ZMF Eikon, HiBy R6 Pro, Voky Erupt, Schiit Loki, quite a few cables for IEMs and headphones... And 2019 has been WAY less expensive than 2018. But the year’s still young... Justifying my purchase of the Zenith? Nah, doesn’t even crack the list of things where I might feel the need to do that!

Seriously, none of you know me, so you don’t know how I am wired.

1. I really am interested in the facts and impressions, simply separated from the emotion. Emotion is for over glasses of beers or wine. As to feeling burnt by a seller... I once bought a house where the well went dry in a week. The seller knew that they had a problem. Didn’t say a word. And it was in a state where that level of disclosure was not required. A year and more than $30,000 later we have a well with 60 gallons/minute. All's well that ends well (rereading that I see the unintended pun!), but at quite the cost. I think that’s a bit more than some audio gear not delivered, so I do have perspective.

2. I typically have a knee jerk reaction when I see overly specific comments about gear versus generalized comments (in this hobby I would say 33% comes from the gear, 33% comes from taste and experience, and 33% comes from anatomy/age/hearing health, etc). Someone stating that A is better than B and anyone who disagrees is deranged gets a reaction that is different than A is better to me than B for these perceived reasons.

3. And I am typically going to ride to the aid of whoever is the target, whether or not they need or deserve someone trying to redirect the conversation on their behalf. I stumbled on this private party looking for anything on the Zenith and the first thing I saw was what I thought was a string of messages conflating an individual, their history, and an unrelated product family. Absolutely and sincerely, if I misunderstood what you (or anyone else) were trying to say, then you have my unqualified apology!

And, oh, yes, bought the Zenith at 50% off - £250, plus £10 to give it a seat on a plane or boat or whatever!
 
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