Testing audiophile claims and myths
May 10, 2011 at 10:07 AM Post #766 of 17,336
Cynical, bah!
 
I decided not to continue after 1st year uni with philosophy after a tutorial involving the questions, how do you know it is red and does a tree make a noise when it falls down in a forrest and no one is there? I kept on refering to what physics tells us about red and noise, which annoyed the tutor no end!
 
The reality of the matter is
 
 - people who can see what hifi they are listening to sometimes report hearing differences.
 
- the descriptions of those differences vary and often contradict.
 
- signal testing and null testing tells us what, if any differences there are between different parts of the hifi chain.
 
- what we already know about what is audible to the human ear tells us that some measured differences are very likely to be audible and some are very unlikely not to be.
 
- ABX testing then tells us further how likely or not a difference is audible or not.
 
 
 
May 10, 2011 at 10:18 AM Post #767 of 17,336
But objectifying a given phenomenon is precisely how you don't find out what it is. The hammer is objectified -- and hence tacitly modified -- by treating it as an object of investigation. But as soon as I adopt this scientific attitude and turn the hammer into an object of investigation, I have thereby placed it in a different context. I have now placed it in a theoretical-scientific context. I have thereby not turned it into a hammer (that is, I have not turned it into itself, because it was that all along before I adopted a scientific attitude toward it). What I have done is turn it into an object of investigation. Now I investigate the hammer. I treat it the way Descartes treated the ball of wax -- as "a thing extended in space." I measure the hammer, I weigh it, I determine what elements it is composed of. I then look at a section of the hammer under an electron microscope. I note and observe the molecules of which it is composed and their structure, I note and observe the atoms, the subatomic particles, the electrons, ponder (for I can't actually observe it) their statistical cloud around the nucleus. I investigate the protons and neutrons, I calculate the atomic weight. I go even further and observe the quarks of which the larger subatomic particles are made, I go all the way down to the level of string theory and observe their characteristic vibrations. I have done all this, and yet none of it has told me what the hammer is. Indeed, the hammer is only a hammer when it has not been turned into an object of scientific investigation to be analyzed and prodded. Indeed, the hammer is most truly a hammer in my prescientific comportment toward the hammer. The less I think and ponder about the hammer, the more I actually use it in some task that has a purpose to it, do I encounter the hammer as a hammer. "


Unlike philosophers, most scientists and ordinary people are able to keep two ideas in their head simultaneously, so that a hammer does not become fundamentally something else when it's a matter of investigation. A thing (or the universe for that matter) remains its ineluctable self with all its uses and meanings as well as a thing to learn about. It's a matter of and, not or.

Also, if you knew anything about scientists, you'd understand that there's absolutely nothing cold about the work . The temperature of reason? a rhetorical flourish.

Sorry for the slap at philosophers, but this is the most egregious misuse of the practice of understanding why (i.e. philosophy) to condemn the practices of understanding how (science).

 
May 10, 2011 at 10:59 AM Post #768 of 17,336
You know, I've been thinking.
 
Philosophy is like masturbation.  It accomplishes absolutely nothing useful, but sure feels good to those who do it...
 
Okay, well absolutely nothing is a bit of a stretch perhaps.  Philosophy has at least helped to lay down the foundations for the inductive reasoning process of the scientific method.
 
But, why do we use science?  Why is it science that we use to explain everything around us today?

Because it works.  It brings results.  It grows us our food.  It brings us our computers, our internet, our forums, our headphones and amplifiers.  It brings people to the moon.  It extends our lives, makes us comfortable when we're in pain, and overall improves our quality of life in highly tangible ways.
 
Philosophy can't do that.  Nor should it.  It has its place - and that is not in discussions about signals theory and human audibility.
 
May 10, 2011 at 11:26 AM Post #769 of 17,336
Quote:
You know, I've been thinking.
 
Philosophy is like masturbation.  It accomplishes absolutely nothing useful, but sure feels good to those who do it...
 
Okay, well absolutely nothing is a bit of a stretch perhaps.  Philosophy has at least helped to lay down the foundations for the inductive reasoning process of the scientific method.
 
But, why do we use science?  Why is it science that we use to explain everything around us today?

Because it works.  It brings results.  It grows us our food.  It brings us our computers, our internet, our forums, our headphones and amplifiers.  It brings people to the moon.  It extends our lives, makes us comfortable when we're in pain, and overall improves our quality of life in highly tangible ways.
 
Philosophy can't do that.  Nor should it.  It has its place - and that is not in discussions about signals theory and human audibility.

 
 
Ethics and logic are two branches of philosophy.
Philosophy of the mind regularly crosses with psychology.
Political philosophy led to the concept of the separation of the three powers...
 
Saying that philosophy is masturbation and accomplishes nothing fruitful is plainly unfair.
 
On the other hand, I agree that it has no place in signal theory.
 
May 10, 2011 at 11:46 AM Post #770 of 17,336
Quote:
Science makes many presuppositions, even suppositions that are accepted and posited as suppositions by scientists themselves. They acknowledge these assumptions as assumptions in order to make certain calculations about the universe. But there are more fundamental presuppostions that are not seen by science. The most fundammental presuppostion is the belief that the world is composed of physical objects. Science believes that the objective is the primary state of affairs -- what Kant called "the thing in itself" -- and that a subject (that is, subjectivity) is somehow added to this preexisting objective state of affairs. In truth however, just as a subject cannot exist without a world, neither can a world exist without a subject. What is taken as preexisting objects in truth only gain their existence, and thereby enter time, retroactively, through the experience of a being for whom time and existence are realities. The subject is essentially a clearing through which phenomena are freed from the oblivion in which they formerly "were," and only by being freed in this way do they show up as what they are. What science posits as preexisting "objects" of nature is actually a theoretical modification in the attitude of the subject, in which the primordial phenomenon is stripped of its phenomenological content. This is accomplished by a process of theorizing. I begin with the whole (science instead begins with parts, particles, atoms, molecules, elements, cells, etc.) -- that is, with environmentality. I then single something out -- the hammer. Beginning with this hammer that I have singled out as an object of investigation, I begin to theorize: the hammer is brown, brown is a color; color is a genuine sense datum, a sense datum is a result of physical or physiological "processes," the primary cause is physical, this cause objectively is a determinate number of electromagnetic waves/photons that travel to my eyes through the air, the air is made up of simple elements, linking these are simple laws, the elements are ultimate, the elements are something in general (the ultimate element, previously and erroneously believed to be the atom, is now believed to be these irreducible vibrating strings as explained by string theory, but who knows what science will posit as the "ultimate element" fifty years from now). There is an assumption in science that if we thoroughly objectify nature we could learn what these things are. But objectifying a given phenomenon is precisely how you don't find out what it is. The hammer is objectified -- and hence tacitly modified -- by treating it as an object of investigation. But as soon as I adopt this scientific attitude and turn the hammer into an object of investigation, I have thereby placed it in a different context. I have now placed it in a theoretical-scientific context. I have thereby not turned it into a hammer (that is, I have not turned it into itself, because it was that all along before I adopted a scientific attitude toward it). What I have done is turn it into an object of investigation. Now I investigate the hammer. I treat it the way Descartes treated the ball of wax -- as "a thing extended in space." I measure the hammer, I weigh it, I determine what elements it is composed of. I then look at a section of the hammer under an electron microscope. I note and observe the molecules of which it is composed and their structure, I note and observe the atoms, the subatomic particles, the electrons, ponder (for I can't actually observe it) their statistical cloud around the nucleus. I investigate the protons and neutrons, I calculate the atomic weight. I go even further and observe the quarks of which the larger subatomic particles are made, I go all the way down to the level of string theory and observe their characteristic vibrations. I have done all this, and yet none of it has told me what the hammer is. Indeed, the hammer is only a hammer when it has not been turned into an object of scientific investigation to be analyzed and prodded. Indeed, the hammer is most truly a hammer in my prescientific comportment toward the hammer. The less I think and ponder about the hammer, the more I actually use it in some task that has a purpose to it, do I encounter the hammer as a hammer. Hence, the most fundamental presupposition of science is its assumption -- the illusion it maintains -- that it could ever explain the world. Phenomena reveal themselves in their primordiality as being there for us, and only by being there for us do they appear as what they are. The worldview of science is actually a theoretical construction. Just listen to how scientists speak. The music we hear becomes "sound waves," it becomes "data." But this way of conceiving the world is only possible because the original phenomena have been taken out of their original context (for a context cannot exist without a situation, and to have a situation you must have a being such as a human being who is actually in a situation) and put into a highly artificial scientific context. That is, the original phenomenon has been objectified, modified, turned into an object of investigation, and thus changed in a fundamental way.
 
Similarly, the edifice of logic is built on a series of suppositions, for instance the basic axioms of geometry. On the basis of the basic propositions, I posit another proposition, which is also taken as valid. The "pre" in presupposition refers to a relation of logical ordering, a relation that holds between theoretical propositions, what Martin Heidegger calls "relations of founding and logical ground-laying: if this is valid, so is that." But this means that the validity even of propositions that are many generations away from the original logical axioms are dependent on the validity of the axioms upon which the edifice has been built. If, in the future, the basic axioms are found to be faulty, then it is conceivable that the conclusions built upon the basic propositions are called into question. Whether or not this turns out to be the case, it is at least theoretically possible, in which case, for all their worth, the edifice of logic is not to be taken as eternally binding. Even now, it has been determined that, depending on the overall geometry of the universe, there are scenarios in which parallel lines intersect.
 
Instead of writing all of the above in answer to your comment, I could also have given you a single quotation originally spoken by a general who fought for the French Revolution (only later to be executed during the Reign of Terror): "To the Jacobins, cold reason weighs infinitely more than the warmth of pity and love."



Chrome ate my post.  really got switch back to Firefox, so only a few points.
 
Separate paragraphs enhance readability.
 
More modern philosophers of science have much more useful things to say than Kant.
 
May 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM Post #771 of 17,336
Quote:
 
On the other hand, I agree that it has no place in signal theory.



Except that the only way to actually attack signal theory is to go straight to foundations like many here do.  If the whole world is actually just an amorphous collection of subjective impressions that only depend on what people think then all those centuries of investigation and experimentation don't mean anything and neither do the innumerable examples that allow you to live your daily life.  They aren't just attacking signal theory or electrical engineering.  Their target is the scientific method itself.  One of the only defense of such woo is to attack the very idea that the laws and principles governing out universe can be investigated, discovered, and understood to some degree 
 
It seems irony know no limits.  In many ways, I think the personal computer is the pinnacle of our modern technology.  By harnessing the strange quantum properties of things far to small to observe directly we have created what is essentially a magic box which can manipulate data in any way imaginable.  Vast numbers of these are connected together to allow average people to communicate almost anything from most of the dry land on our planet and for a little bit more money over the rest of the land and the sea as well.
 
Amid this symphony of science we are told that those same methodologies are inadequate to capture, record, and play back a waveform which rarely exceeds 20000Hz.  The mind boggles.  Its like trying to cut off the branch you're standing on with a rubber knife.  It stupid, impossible, and no one can figure out which aspect of it is worse...
 
May 10, 2011 at 1:12 PM Post #772 of 17,336
Quote:
Except that the only way to actually attack signal theory is to go straight to foundations like many here do.  If the whole world is actually just an amorphous collection of subjective impressions that only depend on what people think then all those centuries of investigation and experimentation don't mean anything and neither do the innumerable examples that allow you to live your daily life.  They aren't just attacking signal theory or electrical engineering.  Their target is the scientific method itself.  One of the only defense of such woo is to attack the very idea that the laws and principles governing out universe can be investigated, discovered, and understood to some degree 
 
It seems irony know no limits.  In many ways, I think the personal computer is the pinnacle of our modern technology.  By harnessing the strange quantum properties of things far to small to observe directly we have created what is essentially a magic box which can manipulate data in any way imaginable.  Vast numbers of these are connected together to allow average people to communicate almost anything from most of the dry land on our planet and for a little bit more money over the rest of the land and the sea as well.
 
Amid this symphony of science we are told that those same methodologies are inadequate to capture, record, and play back a waveform which rarely exceeds 20000Hz.  The mind boggles.  Its like trying to cut off the branch you're standing on with a rubber knife.  It stupid, impossible, and no one can figure out which aspect of it is worse...


I'm not sure of how you understood my (imprecise) post, what I meant was that what Heidegger fed us about science is o dissociated from what science is that it is non sequitur basically. There are ways to refute  or modify the classical criteria of falsifiability, both Feyerabend and Lakatos have very interesting ideas, of course it would require that Heidegger first understood why and how the *basic Karl Popperesque* scientific method works.
 
 
May 10, 2011 at 1:39 PM Post #773 of 17,336
Quote:
I'm not sure of how you understood my (imprecise) post, what I meant was that what Heidegger fed us about science is o dissociated from what science is that it is non sequitur basically. There are ways to refute  or modify the classical criteria of falsifiability, both Feyerabend and Lakatos have very interesting ideas, of course it would require that Heidegger first understood why and how the *basic Karl Popperesque* scientific method works.



I kind of thought you were saying, along with Blackbeard, that this sort of semi-philosophical issue was OT and I was saying that it isn't  that all the facts, figures, and tests in the world mean nothing to Heidegger because he's not just disputing just their validity, he's disputing the methodology that generates them.  On that basis, no technical argument could persuade him because he seems to be convinced that all such arguments are flawed.  Its still stupid and baseless, but I don't really see it a as non-sequitur.  If reality really does work the way he seems to think it does then all the evidence in the would wouldn't matter because it was either gathered with a flawed methodology or because such evidence couldn't actually exist.  Because of this, arguments have to come from the "science isn't perfect but its the best we've got" angle.
 
In essence, he's accusing us of trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when the existence of angels has yet to even be established.  Its so ass-backwards it makes my head hurt, but as always these arguments are conducted for the benefit of the lurkers and not those I argue against.
 
May 10, 2011 at 1:57 PM Post #774 of 17,336
^Quite so, his argument is somewhere between "dark energy make it sound better" and "science can't say anything about perception" with a dash of  "everything is relative". With such an incoherent view, I reserve myself the right to call it non sequitur. Lakatos has in interesting pov when he discusses the scientific method and the advancement of science, Heidegger? not so much.
 
May 10, 2011 at 2:15 PM Post #775 of 17,336
Can we now call an end to the philosophy section of this thread, please?
 
I am still working my way through the internet trying to find more testing, but many hopeful finds link back to tests I already know about. Very frustrating.
 
May 10, 2011 at 2:16 PM Post #776 of 17,336


Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
...that this sort of semi-philosophical issue was OT and I was saying that it isn't  that all the facts, figures, and tests in the world mean nothing to Heidegger because he's not just disputing just their validity, he's disputing the methodology that generates them.  On that basis, no technical argument could persuade him because he seems to be convinced that all such arguments are flawed.  Its still stupid and baseless, but I don't really see it a as non-sequitur.  If reality really does work the way he seems to think it does then all the evidence in the would wouldn't matter because it was either gathered with a flawed methodology or because such evidence couldn't actually exist.  Because of this, arguments have to come from the "science isn't perfect but its the best we've got" angle.
 
In essence, he's accusing us of trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin when the existence of angels has yet to even be established.  Its so ass-backwards it makes my head hurt, but as always these arguments are conducted for the benefit of the lurkers and not those I argue against.


You certainly got what I was trying to say - put in another way, it doesn't matter if we all live in a dream world or the Matrix or whatever and none of what we experience is actually the truth - it's real as far as our reality is concerned.
 
We make the measurements we make, and we formulate mathematical expressions to describe them.  It doesn't matter if it's the one and only real truth - we could just as well be playing a video game - because in most cases (where we have concluded that we're not missing any key influences) we get results that correspond exactly with what we expect (when properly accounting for the noise/error that we can attribute to different minor influences that are not worth tracking (or possible to) in the given case).
 
 
 
 
Now I'm perhaps preaching to the choir, but...
 
Going further on with the video game analogy - say you "are" a soldier fighting in Battlefield 2.  That's your reality - that's what you experience, even if it isn't the "truth" (i.e. that you are just a character in an electronic game).
 
If you want to, say, predict bullet drop from one of the sniper rifles - given the right tools (the distances between flags shown on the map as your arbitrary measuring units) - you can measure the bullet drop at different distances.  Using those measurements, you can inductively determine a mathematical relationship to describe it.
 
The game clock gives you a way to measure time - so you can measure bullet travel times, thus calculate the acceleration (and therefore speed) of the bullet as well (there actually happens to be no [negative] acceleration in the game).
 
In the end, such measurements and induced formulas are incredibly useful in the construct of the game (well, they can be anyway...), regardless of whether the experienced reality is the "truth" or not.
 
 
 
The same applies to what we perceive to be "real life".
 
 
 
 
 
I'm no philosopher - an engineer by trade (perhaps that's obvious).  With my last post did I no way mean that philosophy is entirely useless - khaos974 - my philosophy is masturbation comment was intended to refer to the context we're talking about, of course.  Oh, and I thought it was funny myself...
 
 
 
 
 
Oh, and Heidegger...
 
Paragraphs.
 
Use them.
 
May 10, 2011 at 4:06 PM Post #777 of 17,336
Quote:
You certainly got what I was trying to say - put in another way, it doesn't matter if we all live in a dream world or the Matrix or whatever and none of what we experience is actually the truth - it's real as far as our reality is concerned.

 
Agree with almost everything there.  Any sort of "matrix" would indeed have rules that could in principle be measured, understood, and used to our advantage just like Neo, but if we are truly in a dream-like world then all that goes out the window.  When you dream lucidly you can do anything and cause and effect have no meaning outside your own mind.  In my rare lucid dreams I can do things Neo could never dream of.  I always save the world.  I always get the girl.  I could even create new girls to get.  Damn near anything is possible in a lucid dream.
 
If our reality was really influenced by our minds to that degree then the scientific method would be useless.  Two people could preform identical tests but the results could be completely different based on the wants or desires of those involved.  Such a reality would be a continual contest of will where the existence or nature of anything would have to defined by how much someone believes in it.  In such a place, magic cables really could make your headphones sound better no matter what objective testing others do with that same cable.  In a dream, belief creates reality.
 
I wish I could remember a good link, but there are actually people who believe this to some degree!  There are actual people who believe the the enlightenment and scientific revolution changed the public consciousness so much that it broke magic.  Actual magic.  Spells, curses, and incantations.  It used to work, people stopped believing in it, then it stopped actually working!  While this is a good place to start a work of fiction about the last few mages in the world banding together to make a place safe for magic its obviously not a solid foundation to build a useful worldview on.
 
May 10, 2011 at 10:57 PM Post #778 of 17,336
I actually wrote my undergraduate thesis on Heidegger (the philosopher) and biological psychology.  Both point out that reality is a construction of the mind, but one that it is ultimately up to the world (Being) to decide whether our interpretation will work- by having our ideas predict outcomes in the world, or killing us off for having very bad ideas, etc.  Those are also the basic tenets of biology and neuroscience (what I do now for a living) so good philosophy is certainly not masturbatory or inconsistent with science.  That being said, the scientific method and the iteration of hypothesis, prediction, observation, validation/refutation, refined hypothesis, etc. ultimately delivers a vast and exquisite system of validated knowledge that has made our modern world what it is.
 
I hope that Heidegger (the poster) reads some Heidegger (the philosopher) and wakes up the these facts.  
 
May 12, 2011 at 6:50 AM Post #780 of 17,336


Quote:
It is not the philosophers, it is the scientists who have and will discover how things work. All philosophy contributes is casting doubt by playing word games and digging into sematics.
 
If I want to know if there is a difference between cables, I would head to physics, not philosophy.
 


Science derives from philosophy. It used to be that one and the same thinker pondered both metaphysics and physics. Today people are more specialized and tend to focus on a single subject.
 


Quote:
Quote:


Unlike philosophers, most scientists and ordinary people are able to keep two ideas in their head simultaneously, so that a hammer does not become fundamentally something else when it's a matter of investigation. A thing (or the universe for that matter) remains its ineluctable self with all its uses and meanings as well as a thing to learn about. It's a matter of and, not or.
 


Really? Because I find that people who "preach" science have a very hard time taking off their scientific cap and seeing things from another perspective. Everything outside the "objective" perspective that they have adopted is deemed "emotional" and hence insignificant. These people speak as if subjectivity were of absolutely no value (never mind that objectivity is nothing but a modification of subjectivity, and never mind that without first imagining going to the moon it is very doubtful that science would have ever gotten us there; therefore, I count the imagination as even more important than science; without the imagination there would be no science). To these people, the only thing that counts are facts that have been scientifically verified. They speak as if human beings knew nothing until science came along. To these preachers of science, the phenomenon we call "the world" really has become something else. They largely see the world in terms of how it shows itself in the particular light of objectivity that they have shined upon it. Under that light, the world shows up as an object, or as something that is made up of objects (such as fundamental particles or sound waves); and they think that if you could somehow unify all the objects and forces, you could then get an adequate picture of the universe. Meanwhile, they think that is the only way to interpret reality. As proof of how right they are, they often point to how useful science is. That is their ultimate criterion: utility. It is no wonder that even such a venerable thing as philosophy counts as nothing to them. They find it hard to see the value of philosophy because they don't see how it can be used. The ultimate example of utilitarianism is technology. We worship technology. Even common people think in technological terms nowadays. The problem is that from the perspective of technology the Earth is not home, it is rather a resource to be used, manipulated, and consumed. Because science and technology see the world not as home but as object and resource, there is a great danger lurking in them. The ultimate irony is that those who preach science and who profess to believe in evidence fail to see the clearest evidence: nuclear bombs and the possibility of global destruction that science makes possible. If you think that nuclear bombs are dangerous, wait till scientists learn how to induce miniature black holes. Of course, it would be too simplistic to label science as totally bad and evil. It's very much a double-edged sword. Just as science can destroy the Earth it might also, under some hypothetical scenarios, save it, say by deflecting an asteroid. So I'm not saying that science is totally bad and worthless, just that it has major limitations and flaws, and that what it giveth with one hand it very often takes away with another (sure we have better factories, but also more pollution -- that sort of thing). But whenever you speak of these limitations or flaws, the preachers of science accuse you of attacking science, of being against science, and then they begin circling the wagon, so it is very had to have a debate with them.
 
 

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